"The Closer" Damian Lillard

[mauro78]

The more I think about it, the more I think they need to just remove this signature skill nonsense altogether. This is a basketball sim, not an RPG. What's so wrong with the clutch rating? These binary, "you have it or you don't", special abilities are far from replicating reality.

Well Tuss I think sig. are a great addiction to the game. Personally IRL you can be' a closer or you can be' not....you can be a deadly shooter or just an average shooter. It's not (IMHO) a bad design decision....just my 2 cents on this...


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[TUSS11]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Well Tuss I think sig. are a great addiction to the game. Personally IRL you can be' a closer or you can be' not....you can be a deadly shooter or just an average shooter. It's not (IMHO) a bad design decision....just my 2 cents on this...


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Ratings depict reality much better. You can be a deadly shooter or an average shooter, but you can also be somewhere in between. This system doesn't account for the middle ground.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

I dont think a 36 year old, always injured player, should have Closer if he's not closing on a consistent basis since Detroit 4 seasons ago.

He's not Mr. Big Shot anymore. Its 2013.

Yeah, I realize, but what I'm saying is this is why we need to do away with the silly closer sig skill, because it excludes players that are just as clutch that don't get a bunch of touches. That or have closer and clutch ratings, because that calmness in the clutch is intangible, it doesn't just go away, its just not seen because they don't get touches.

And its not like Billups took over games with athleticism and force, but he hit shots and did not miss from the line, and honestly, should still retain some of that instinct, but thanks to the all or nothing mentality of that particular sig skill (I love sig skills, and they should all stay except this one, don't misunderstand this post), guys like Billups, Lillard, and even Ray Allen (how many big shots did he hit for the C's?) get shorted because they don't hog the ball and take all of their team's shots in the 4th.

[InthePaint]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Yeah, I realize, but what I'm saying is this is why we need to do away with the silly closer sig skill, because it excludes players that are just as clutch that don't get a bunch of touches. That or have closer and clutch ratings, because that calmness in the clutch is intangible, it doesn't just go away, its just not seen because they don't get touches.

And its not like Billups took over games with athleticism and force, but he hit shots and did not miss from the line, and honestly, should still retain some of that instinct, but thanks to the all or nothing mentality of that particular sig skill (I love sig skills, and they should all stay except this one, don't misunderstand this post), guys like Billups, Lillard, and even Ray Allen (how many big shots did he hit for the C's?) get shorted because they don't hog the ball and take all of their team's shots in the 4th.

Ill agree that this new signature skill is suspect, but i think there should be some sort of minimal numerical evidence to grant a player the skill this year if it continues to be instituted in the future. It shouldnt be based on what a dude did three teams and seasons ago. Billups hasnt played consistently this year.

Miami isnt gearing there fourth quarter offense though Ray Allen. Even in Boston he wasnt the main option in the clutch.
Lillard plays shakey in the fourth against the Knicks and hits one big shot and fanboys interpret that as takin over in the fourth.

Its become here on the forums as a quick tattoo for players that do it with too small of a sample size or antiquated and nostalgic performances.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Ill agree that this new signature skill is suspect, but i think there should be some sort of minimal numerical evidence to grant a player the skill this year if it continues to be instituted in the future. It shouldnt be based on what a dude did three teams and seasons ago. Billups hasnt played consistently this year.

Miami isnt gearing there fourth quarter offense though Ray Allen. Even in Boston he wasnt the main option in the clutch.
Lillard plays shakey in the fourth against the Knicks and hits one big shot and fanboys interpret that as takin over in the fourth.

Its become here on the forums as a quick tattoo for players that do it with too small of a sample size or antiquated and nostalgic performances.

My thing is though, that instinct does not just go away, despite injuries. And I don't know where everyone is getting this, I do not want Billups, Allen, and Lillard to get closer, I want them to get a higher clutch rating and 2k to implement a clutch rating. I think it should be like the other skills that kind of have a numerical counterpart. Make a clutch rating, but save closer, which gives maximum boosts, for Wade, Durant, Dirk, Pierce, guys like that.

And I never said that Allen was the first option, because he's not a shot creator, however, when his number was called in Boston, he delivered, a lot, and that was like 8 months ago. Just because he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands doesn't mean he isn't clear headed at the end of games.

If all of the naysayers on here are going to be quick to point out that the sample size is too small for Lillard (which I think it kind of is, at least for closer) then why are you so quick to say that Allen is not clutch, when it hasn't even been a year since he was knocking down late game corner threes for Boston? And like you said, Billups hasn't had many minutes since moving from Detroit, so it seems that the sample size of games he has played hasn't been big enough and his touches not consistent enough to warrant stripping him of a quality he has held his entire career. So yeah, I agree, sample size is a big factor.

[JasonWilliams55]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Ratings depict reality much better. You can be a deadly shooter or an average shooter, but you can also be somewhere in between. This system doesn't account for the middle ground.

How does this system (ratings+sigs) not account for middle ground? Through the ratings middle ground is accounted for, 90, 85, 80, 75, 70 ratings provide everything from high to medium to low.

Sig skills only enhance ratings in certain situations to provide that "special" ability said player has in real life. So imo, ratings + sigs depict reality even better as it is even more detailed.

Now the question of who should have what is a different story, but either way we have to deal with the "2k insider" in giving us the ratings/skills, unless your offline in which you should be able to adjust accordingly on your own if you disagree.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

How does this system (ratings+sigs) not account for middle ground? Through the ratings middle ground is accounted for, 90, 85, 80, 75, 70 ratings provide everything from high to medium to low.

Sig skills only enhance ratings in certain situations to provide that "special" ability said player has in real life. So imo, ratings + sigs depict reality even better as it is even more detailed.

Now the question of who should have what is a different story, but either way we have to deal with the "2k insider" in giving us the ratings/skills, unless your offline in which you should be able to adjust accordingly on your own if you disagree.

I think he means middle ground when dealing with clutch performance. He was using shooting as an example of why numerical ratings are necessary.

[JasonWilliams55]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

I think he means middle ground when dealing with clutch performance. He was using shooting as an example of why numerical ratings are necessary.

Okay, then I guess the question is, can you be "somewhat" clutch? To me its either your clutch or your not and its always gonna be subjective anyway.

[d11king]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Okay, then I guess the question is, can you be "somewhat" clutch? To me its either your clutch or your not and its always gonna be subjective anyway.

To answer that question I think we must first ask, is Kobe clutch??

EDIT: The only reason I say this is, in his earlier years, it can be said, Kobe was clutch. But me personally, I haven't seen a real clutch performance from Kobe since Game 6 of the WCF against the Suns. Now it's many failed buzzer beaters or shots to win the game that end up going to OT, he'll hit a couple jumpers before the 1 or 2 minute mark, then after that....... so is Kobe clutch? Is he somewhat clutch? Cause I agree with you, you're either clutch or you're not. But at the same time, some people just hit jumpshots and it happens to be no time left on the clock.

[JasonWilliams55]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

To answer that question I think we must first ask, is Kobe clutch??

To answer that we must define clutch first.

[d11king]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

To answer that we must define clutch first.

To be honest, IMO there is no such thing as clutch. When I played basketball I was unfazed by the term "pressure." So if someone hits a shot at a certain point in the game, to me he just hit the shot... Kevin Durant last year against the Lakers in Game 4 when he hit the 3 against MWP from straight away with however many seconds left... sure people can say it's clutch, but to me Kevin Durant hits that shot anytime any day, that's his shot. Because of the situation if you wanna call it clutch go ahead but it's just a shot. If he missed it, I would've just said he missed the shot. He's probably a 37% 3PT shooter, so when it left his hand, he had a 37% chance of making the shot. That shot happened to connect. ESPN wants to give all these fancy terms and PER ratings and definitions of certain situations and we all believe the hype... I don't need a PER sheet or some fancy term to tell me you don't want the ball in Kevin Durant's hands in the last minute of a close ball game. If he makes it he makes it, if he doesn't, he doesn't.

To paraphrase Tom Brady, "when you know what you have to do in order to win, all you have to do is go out there and execute...."

Pressure is state of mind and clutch is just some fancy term we like to say to hype up the situation.

EDIT: ESPN says that clutch in terms of basketball, is less than 5 minutes on the game with the deficit not exceeding 5 points. IMO, that's not clutch. That's just a really good game. Then it'll come down to who makes the shot... Looking back at history, you think of the best "clutch" players, these were also some of the best players in the league. Think of all the game-winners and "clutch" baskets Jordan hit. Now look at where Jordan ranks all time.. We tried labeling Adam Vinetiari a clutch kicker.. He wasn't clutch, he was a really good kicker who hardly missed. So because he hits in the Super Bowl makes him clutch?? I tried finding a counter-argument for David Freese and his World Series clutch performance, but couldn't muster anything haha. Same for my boy Mike Trout!

[JasonWilliams55]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

@d11, agreed.

To shed even more light into the "clutch"ness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch_%28sports%29

[d11king]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

@d11, agreed.

To shed even more light into the "clutch"ness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch_%28sports%29

Looks like I'm a skeptic hahah.

Clutch baskets exist, clutch hits exist, etc. Clutch players do not.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

d11 I agree 99%. Pressure is a state of mind, and clutch simply is a term invented to mean players that don't succumb to the pressure. I played organized sports for 18 years of my life; you can't tell me that there isn't added pressure on the last play. Your blood is rushing and your heart pounding up to that instant when the play happens. What happens in your mind next is the key. If you think about the play, you're done. And that's what most players do. That's really all clutch is, just the confidence in yourself and winning that mental battle.

I played organized sports a lot, and I have a walk off hit, a walk off squeeze bunt (really proud of that one), and my senior year in high school i had one game tying homer and two go ahead homers in the last innings of games. Same in basketball. No buzzer beater game winners, but a lot of shots down the stretch. I did all this after I was about 13. I say all of this because when I was younger or even just less confident in my abilities, I really felt the pressure. Its a mental battle, nothing else, but its a tough one nonetheless, and one that very few guys can ever win.

So I agree that really, for clutch guys, ratings shouldn't go up, they don't magically get better, they just shouldn't go down. Its such an intangible thing that its really hard to quantify, let alone boil down to one number.

[Courtlandt Palton]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Curry > damian