How do you not get angry at momentum?

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

And people say momentum happens in real life . It's rubberbanding labeled momentum please do not ignore that fact.

It might as well read, "People say basketball happens in real life. It's polygons labeled basketball please do not ignore that fact."

We're dealing with practical terms, not semantics. Calling rubberbanding "momentum" isn't misleading in the way that calling animations "physics" is.

Plus, you could just as accurately call some real NBA causes of momentum shifts "rubberbanding" by design (bad/missed/make-up foul calls [ask Tim Donaghy], poor substitution patterns). It's not like they aren't based on the same idea.

We can't say for sure whether they were motivated by a desire to keep games artificially close rather than wanting to simulate organic shifts in quality of play - but in either case, there is a real-life sports precedent for it. You can't really equate it to the purely fantastical way rubberbanding works in certain other game genres.

Sometimes it makes outcomes seem predetermined, but as I said before - it can feel even more when I'm watching my favorite NBA team than it does when I play NBA 2k. Maybe it's not trying to teach us when to call timeouts or what adjustments to make. It just wants us to know that life is pain and you can't always get what you want.

[Rockie_Fresh88]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

It might as well read, "People say basketball happens in real life. It's polygons labeled basketball please do not ignore that fact."

We're dealing with practical terms, not semantics. Calling rubberbanding "momentum" isn't misleading in the way that calling animations "physics" is.

Plus, you could just as accurately call some real NBA causes of momentum shifts "rubberbanding" by design (bad/missed/make-up foul calls [ask Tim Donaghy], poor substitution patterns). It's not like they aren't based on the same idea.

We can't say for sure whether they were motivated by a desire to keep games artificially close rather than wanting to simulate organic shifts in quality of play - but in either case, there is a real-life sports precedent for it. You can't really equate it to the purely fantastical way rubberbanding works in certain other game genres.

Sometimes it makes outcomes seem predetermined, but as I said before - it can feel even more when I'm watching my favorite NBA team than it does when I play NBA 2k. Maybe it's not trying to teach us when to call timeouts or what adjustments to make. It just wants us to know that life is pain and you can't always get what you want.

I have to disagree . Labeling the rubberbanding "momentum" is misleading. Why do we need a "momentum system" instead of just create our on runs by good play? I don't need the game to predetermine that. U dont hear oh they are about to activate the momentum system. No u hear oh they're on a run here.

It's advertising 101. Make something sound better than it is .

[stlpimpmonsta]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

I don't get angry cause......

1. Its a game. It doesn't matter if I win or lose

2. Cooler heads prevail. Getting angry only make you play worse.

[basketballfreak24]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

when u play with lower ranked teams and you see garbage happening (your team NEVER gets a loose ball or loose rebound or your CPU is in position to make a stop on defense and it just lets the opponent score), i will finish the game and then stop playing whether i win or lose.

when you know you're playing against programming that says since i'm playing against the Heat while i've got the Pacers, the Heat are predetermined to get every loose ball/rebound while my CPU justs stands there with his finger up his butt, it can get annoying real quick. i used to think i was just playing against the player ratings but its deeper than that. just put the controller down and come back the next day and get annoyed again. lol.

[aussieicon91]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

It's so frustrating online because it makes mediocre players look genius.

I wish there wasn't any momemtum system online because it's 1 person versus another and the better player should win and nothing should be factored in by 'momentum'. The momentum feels more like 'bad officiating' more then anything else.

Remove it online and keep it offline.

[Rockie_Fresh88]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

It's so frustrating online because it makes mediocre players look genius.

I wish there wasn't any momemtum system online because it's 1 person versus another and the better player should win and nothing should be factored in by 'momentum'. The momentum feels more like 'bad officiating' more then anything else.

Remove it online and keep it offline.

I can understand offline helps make the CPU more dynamic and all still frustrating but Im ok with it. Online I don't understand though.

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

I have to disagree . Labeling the rubberbanding "momentum" is misleading. Why do we need a "momentum system" instead of just create our on runs by good play? I don't need the game to predetermine that. U dont hear oh they are about to activate the momentum system. No u hear oh they're on a run here.

It's advertising 101. Make something sound better than it is .

Feel free to only acknowledge the bold part below if you're not up for any misadventure.

It isn't as manipulative as "advertising 101."
Everyone understands what a rubberband is and does, but "rubberbanding" is still esoteric videogame jargon. Yes, it would be bad for marketing - but more importantly, it could also be confusing and off-putting to describe things in needlessly obscure or technical terms when addressing a mass audience. Momentum is a common concept in sports, so it makes sense to use it when describing rubberbanding to a consumer who may be a serious sports fan but only a casual gamer.

Momentum and rubberbands are closely related in mechanical and metaphorical terms. You could use one to help describe the function of the other in many contexts. In both threads on this subject, I feel like you are presenting rubberbanding as this dark revelation that has nothing to do with the principle of momentum as it relates to basketball, when that's just not the case.

Of course you don't hear NBA commentators say a team is "activating the momentum system" - but you do hear them say one team has momentum, or that a play or series of plays changed the momentum, or they predict what will happen in the next few possessions based on perceived momentum. The word "momentum" is used just as often as "on a run" during a typical broadcast.

Momentum in physics applies to mass in motion.

Momentum in sports applies to the idea that a team acts like an object in motion because their prior success makes them more difficult to stop in the immediate future.

A rubber band is an elastic loop, that if used to hold two objects together, would limit the amount of momentum either one could gain if they were pulled away from each other, and then would cause them to gain momentum as they were pulled back toward each other after reaching their maximum separation (assuming they didn't exceed its tensile strength).

Rubberbanding in videogames is an elastic system used to keep competitors from exceeding a certain score/time/damage differential without increasing the momentum of the trailing player(s) and/or decreasing that of the leading player(s).

Rubberbanding being called momentum is only misleading (or predetermined) if there is no earned initiation factor for it. No matter how nefarious you consider its existence to be, it still generally requires effort on the part of the trailing player to have any useful effect.

If a racing game gives a driver a speed boost that has nothing to do with drafting, forced induction, wing angle, or increased application of throttle, and goes beyond the limit of their vehicle's capability, that doesn't simulate reality at all - but if a basketball game gives a team a performance boost after a key basket, stop, or foul - that's at least attempting to relate to how runs actually happen.

Whether it's a mistake you made or something positive done by your opponent, if you can pinpoint the play(s) that triggered the rubberband effect (and it's not something as generic as a particular score differential being reached), then it's still anchored in meaningful accomplishment.

No one is saying we "need" it. But manipulation of outcomes does happen in the NBA. Runs are started/maintained by factors beyond the control of each player. Even pick-up basketball involves people calling phantom fouls and intentionally misidentifying who touched the ball last out of gamesmanship, pride, or embarrassment, and you're often faced with the choice of either 'respecting' a fabricated call, having someone shoot for possession, or interrupting the game with an argument or worse, none of which acknowledge any skill or truth in what actually happened, and all of which can turn the tide of a game.

There is no form of competition in which the result is always determined solely by skill and the side that physically performs better always wins.

I can agree without hesitation that there is no point if you are player-locked and/or in a Team Up match for the human controlled player(s) to be subjected to rubberbanding. But how do you allow AI teammates to have fluctuating performance levels without taking some control away? For example, if a player doesn't touch the ball for a few possessions (isn't under user control during that time), shouldn't it be possible for them to become less engaged and therefore more likely to make a mistake the next time they are called to action? Depending on personality type, a human teammate could certainly lose focus if they weren't involved in the offense for long stretches. Would fluctuating awareness ratings based on touches/defensive engagement and an accompanying "awareness stability" rating be an acceptable way to simulate momentum?

When I'm in a non-philosophical mood or just looking for some instant gratification from NBA 2k, I've spent my share of time yelling at the TV because I felt like the game was playing itself. But no matter how frustrated I may get, I still think there is a place for things beyond the user's influence in a simulation of NBA basketball.

[KillerHog471]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

It's really rubberbanding labeled momentum.

It works in your favor too. Sometimes you just have to slow the ball down and over analyzed every play. One simple pass is a turnover. Get the ball inside dont shoot jumpers . Run pick and rolls. Make the shot so open that the game has no choice but to let it go in. Put in your best defenders on the other teams best scorers. Don't be afraid to switch it up run zones , traps etc...

Sometimes all the above doesn't even help. But it is what it is.

Come on remember your line! You're supposed to say call a TO.

[Mt Oread]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

Reading about this momentum and the hardship it produces on the player has made me much more likely to pick this up with MLB 2K13 next week. I love that feeling of the game getting away and my players struggling. It forces me to think and come up with strategies to overcome the situation.

It sounds like a perfect simulation of basketball from the point of view of a coach or player. And while it can make your stomach turn, it mimics that same feeling I get when nothing seems to go in for the Jayhawks.

[magicman32]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

I wouldn't have a problem with momentum user vs. user if it didn't kick when your opponent plays dumb basketball.

For example. A player can cheese, make dumb passes that are successful, make fadeaway contested 3's without making a single pass, and get every 50-50 ball or Off Reb playing dumb/careless basketball.

2k shouldn't reward this type of play, but the momentum system helps low bball IQ players (chessers), when it really should be PUNISHING them. But they are not punished, especially if they are using an elite team. And it seems like 2k punishes smart ball, because I will start consistently missing wide open shots while they make contested ones.

This is another aspect of the game that is just ridiculous. My complaints are in regards to quick ranked matches.

[Rockie_Fresh88]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

Feel free to only acknowledge the bold part below if you're not up for any misadventure.

It isn't as manipulative as "advertising 101."
Everyone understands what a rubberband is and does, but "rubberbanding" is still esoteric videogame jargon. Yes, it would be bad for marketing - but more importantly, it could also be confusing and off-putting to describe things in needlessly obscure or technical terms when addressing a mass audience. Momentum is a common concept in sports, so it makes sense to use it when describing rubberbanding to a consumer who may be a serious sports fan but only a casual gamer.

Momentum and rubberbands are closely related in mechanical and metaphorical terms. You could use one to help describe the function of the other in many contexts. In both threads on this subject, I feel like you are presenting rubberbanding as this dark revelation that has nothing to do with the principle of momentum as it relates to basketball, when that's just not the case.

Of course you don't hear NBA commentators say a team is "activating the momentum system" - but you do hear them say one team has momentum, or that a play or series of plays changed the momentum, or they predict what will happen in the next few possessions based on perceived momentum. The word "momentum" is used just as often as "on a run" during a typical broadcast.

Momentum in physics applies to mass in motion.

Momentum in sports applies to the idea that a team acts like an object in motion because their prior success makes them more difficult to stop in the immediate future.

A rubber band is an elastic loop, that if used to hold two objects together, would limit the amount of momentum either one could gain if they were pulled away from each other, and then would cause them to gain momentum as they were pulled back toward each other after reaching their maximum separation (assuming they didn't exceed its tensile strength).

Rubberbanding in videogames is an elastic system used to keep competitors from exceeding a certain score/time/damage differential without increasing the momentum of the trailing player(s) and/or decreasing that of the leading player(s).

Rubberbanding being called momentum is only misleading (or predetermined) if there is no earned initiation factor for it. No matter how nefarious you consider its existence to be, it still generally requires effort on the part of the trailing player to have any useful effect.

If a racing game gives a driver a speed boost that has nothing to do with drafting, forced induction, wing angle, or increased application of throttle, and goes beyond the limit of their vehicle's capability, that doesn't simulate reality at all - but if a basketball game gives a team a performance boost after a key basket, stop, or foul - that's at least attempting to relate to how runs actually happen.

Whether it's a mistake you made or something positive done by your opponent, if you can pinpoint the play(s) that triggered the rubberband effect (and it's not something as generic as a particular score differential being reached), then it's still anchored in meaningful accomplishment.

No one is saying we "need" it. But manipulation of outcomes does happen in the NBA. Runs are started/maintained by factors beyond the control of each player. Even pick-up basketball involves people calling phantom fouls and intentionally misidentifying who touched the ball last out of gamesmanship, pride, or embarrassment, and you're often faced with the choice of either 'respecting' a fabricated call, having someone shoot for possession, or interrupting the game with an argument or worse, none of which acknowledge any skill or truth in what actually happened, and all of which can turn the tide of a game.

There is no form of competition in which the result is always determined solely by skill and the side that physically performs better always wins.

I can agree without hesitation that there is no point if you are player-locked and/or in a Team Up match for the human controlled player(s) to be subjected to rubberbanding. But how do you allow AI teammates to have fluctuating performance levels without taking some control away? For example, if a player doesn't touch the ball for a few possessions (isn't under user control during that time), shouldn't it be possible for them to become less engaged and therefore more likely to make a mistake the next time they are called to action? Depending on personality type, a human teammate could certainly lose focus if they weren't involved in the offense for long stretches. Would fluctuating awareness ratings based on touches/defensive engagement and an accompanying "awareness stability" rating be an acceptable way to simulate momentum?

When I'm in a non-philosophical mood or just looking for some instant gratification from NBA 2k, I've spent my share of time yelling at the TV because I felt like the game was playing itself. But no matter how frustrated I may get, I still think there is a place for things beyond the user's influence in a simulation of NBA basketball.

I totally understand where u coming from. creates a dynamic game. No game is the same . Gives the CPU a little life.

Still i would rather it just be left up to user skill and ratings of the players online. Because when momentum kicks in mixed with the exploits u start seeing a lot crap that those players wouldn't do . Which leads to so much frustration. Especially when the guy is playing dumb ball.

Guess we gotta agree to disagree . Your post definitely was nice to read though.

I'm not knocking it. A better implemented system is welcomed.

But right now the rubberbanding is very frustrating .

[magicman32]

Re: How do you not get angry at momentum?

I forgot to mention your cpu teammates reaching in and committing a foul at the end of games putting your opponent at the line. Why would the CPU reach in on the man he's not even guarding when the opposing team is in the bonus? This happened to me a couple of nights ago and the shot clock was at 2 seconds.

Or your opponent making a careless pass to a player that is covered and your cpu teammate attempting a steal, only to miss it and put your defense out of position.

The cpu doing dumb things at the end of games because of momentum is frustrating also. It's bad enough that it happens in my career, but we have to deal with that nonsense in a 5 on 5 game too. Come on 2k. lol