Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

[jfsolo]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

Oh the whole, though I don't see how they're going to ever get the offense/defense balance past a certain threshold. For the average player, turnovers and offensive fouls should be increased by about 500 percent. For the "casual" player, more like 2,000 percent.

I'm sure they could make that game but they couldn't sell it.

I cosign this 100%! You can only blame the players to an extent. It's 2K's job, IF it considers itself sim, to encourage realistic things to happen in the game. If a guy passes the ball into a crowd it should be intercepted (or something else, depending on the situation). To answer the OP's question...It's beginning to be less & less sim IMO. I enjoy running plays, walking the ball up the court & running a well oiled, efficient offense. Online games will be having none of that. Running side to side holding turbo until you get an opening seems to work a lot better. In order to have players play the way basketball was meant to be played you have to discourage unrealistic actions. Online games don't do this....and MyTeam is even worse!!! Lol Have you guys played this mode? It's a headache waiting to happen!

I don't think they do this intentionally. I'm just speculating here, but I think sometimes the testing process is too logical. For example, most of the post moves have highly effective counters, but the up-and-under was a disaster in 2k12 and still slightly overpowered in 2k13. It may be that they assumed the offensive player just wouldn't regularly attempt the under if the defender didn't bite on the up. I think a lot of things without proper counters have to do with this sort of thinking.

A real basketball player will make decisions based on what they anticipate to be true, but most 2k players will keep trying to attack even if they run into a brick wall a dozen times before they finally break through it.
It may be that they underestimated players' tunnel vision and willingness to stick with plan 'A' well past the point of absurdity, proving that some counters which seemed effective at first can be broken by people who don't think like a basketball player.

I really like these three points. They're talking about NBA 2K in this instance, but it can really be applied to all sports games. These points sum up why, IMO, H2H play will never be a good experience for people whose primary reason for playing these games is not competition for competitions sake, but a desire to test out real world sports tactics and strategies in a digital arena.

At some point the "fun factor" or protecting players from failing too miserably from idiotic decision making , became an essential part of the design process and this has arrested the development of sports games, IMO.

[ksuttonjr76]

I said this all b4, but I think there's 2 schools of thought for "sim." Sim playing or Sim environment. Sim players yeah 2 guys could agree to play by a set of rules or try to play as realistically as possible. 2nd one is Sim environment, which pretty much replicates the rules / physics / action reaction of the sport. I'm cool with #2. As long as contesting a shot = affects shot %, or turboing = fatigue, I'm cool with that. Cuz then in that case if I choose to play sim / realistically, I'm rewarded for it. The game can't control how you play, but it could control whether realistic play is rewarded and unrealistic play punished.

This comment pretty sums up my current thought on the subject "sim", since about NBA 2K9. I'm in the camp who decides whether the GAME allows me to play "sim" and rewards me accordingly. NBA 2K11 was the ONLY game where I could methodically pick my opponent apart on both offense AND defense, regardless if my opponent played sim or cheese.

Past games did frustrate me due to people trying to use exploits to win games, but NEVER to the level of what NBA 2K12 and 2K13 has done. Online games have NEVER frustrated me to the point where I took on the mindset of "If you can't beat them, join them.". For me, I merely had chosen to stop playing online so much (1-2 games per week if even that), and play mostly offline and Blacktop mode. I refuse to resort to cheap tactics or use powerhouse teams to win games online.

To answer the question...online games in ANY videogame has NEVER breeded sim/ethical players. Most casuals will always look for the quickest, easiest, and LESS skilled way to win games. The problem we have with NBA 2K12 and NBA 2K13 is that 2K Sports didn't give the hardcore fans an effective and consistent way on beating them unless you resort to the same cheap tactics.

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk 2

[herruberraschen]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

2K Ranked is not sim but it is a surprisingly fun game when matched with an equal player. Of course any game can be annoyingly frustrating when you are over matched by either skill or cheese. I also try to pick a lesser team and about half the time the other guy will match up with me. If not I go with my favorite team OKC.

[LoudMouthHoops]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

The problem is that some "causal" can access the mode and still cheese it. May not be hard to add, but at this point, it seems kinda ridiculous to me. Unless there's a couple of requirements to play the mode, it's not really special. "Hardcore" will actually IMO, appeal to more "Causals" then the word "Simulation." "Hardcore" has an arcade sound to it. I would say if a causal cheeser entered "Simulation" and the game suddenly notices the players style, they get kicked. But, that is also hard to track/do since its possible that system can be broken.

Look...you can't CONTROL what people do...The point is the "casuals" will venture into "Hardcore" mode and realize they can't just SPRINT around and dunk, and they actually have to use basketball strategy while playing under control. They will either ADAPT or LOSE - the choice is their's.

The game is not going to be able to "notice a players style". If this is what you are hoping for or expecting, sorry to be rude, but you're insanely unrealistic.

They are NEVER going to KICK a player out of a game automatically for not playing the "right" style....is that a JOKE? Seriously....

All they can do is put the Hardcore games on HOF Simulation mode. All of the sudden the cheesy tactics and out of control play would actually have a NEGATIVE effect on game results, and not a positive effect like it does now. You think casual cheesers are going to want to play a mode where there is actually DEFENSE and they can't just TURBO around with Melo and LeBron and score 40!?!?

Nope.

It will be DIFFICULT...and they won't play. They will have to do "boring' things like play defense, rotate, run plays, pass the ball effectively, and post up in order to have success. They will NOT do it...too much "work"....too hard.

That's the point.

You're never going to put a "gateway" on the mode....or automatically kick people from games based on the servers somehow analyzing their playing style...that's just silly.

Shoot....about HALF of the people who claim to be "Sim" are really nothing more than cheesers-in-denial....they just don't realize it.

The whole point is 2K needs to give Sim players a mode where realistic gameplay is actually REWARDED and unrealistic gameplay is PUNISHED. Unlike the current mode where most of the time it feels like the OPPOSITE is true.

[thedream2k13]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

A wise man once said " don't play videogames play basketball" I hope 2k was listening

[MarvinOida]

Look...you can't CONTROL what people do...The point is the "casuals" will venture into "Hardcore" mode and realize they can't just SPRINT around and dunk, and they actually have to use basketball strategy while playing under control. They will either ADAPT or LOSE - the choice is their's.

The game is not going to be able to "notice a players style". If this is what you are hoping for or expecting, sorry to be rude, but you're insanely unrealistic.

They are NEVER going to KICK a player out of a game automatically for not playing the "right" style....is that a JOKE? Seriously....

All they can do is put the Hardcore games on HOF Simulation mode. All of the sudden the cheesy tactics and out of control play would actually have a NEGATIVE effect on game results, and not a positive effect like it does now. You think casual cheesers are going to want to play a mode where there is actually DEFENSE and they can't just TURBO around with Melo and LeBron and score 40!?!?

Nope.

It will be DIFFICULT...and they won't play. They will have to do "boring' things like play defense, rotate, run plays, pass the ball effectively, and post up in order to have success. They will NOT do it...too much "work"....too hard.

That's the point.

You're never going to put a "gateway" on the mode....or automatically kick people from games based on the servers somehow analyzing their playing style...that's just silly.

Shoot....about HALF of the people who claim to be "Sim" are really nothing more than cheesers-in-denial....they just don't realize it.

The whole point is 2K needs to give Sim players a mode where realistic gameplay is actually REWARDED and unrealistic gameplay is PUNISHED. Unlike the current mode where most of the time it feels like the OPPOSITE is true.

Sorry I gave a badly worded answer. But my main point was trying to get is the mode will most likely end up like lobbies, barely used and out. Even if we have the mode, what you said, cheeses will leave, less people play, useless server space. (According to 2K)

I see the idea and its good but I see this as what could happen. I could be wrong. I would be happy to be wrong

[LoudMouthHoops]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

Sorry I gave a badly worded answer. But my main point was trying to get is the mode will most likely end up like lobbies, barely used and out. Even if we have the mode, what you said, cheeses will leave, less people play, useless server space. (According to 2K)

I see the idea and its good but I see this as what could happen. I could be wrong. I would be happy to be wrong

How would this mode effect anyone leaving? There will still be the current Regular Quick Matches. Then a "Hardcore" option on higher difficulty and Simulation slider settings. Cheesers won't leave, they will just play the Regular Quick Matches...and Sim players and those who want to play that style will play "Hardcore".

If anything it's going to KEEP people playing the game. Because right now what 2K has to worry about is the fanatical Sim players leaving. If the game continues to sacrifice what made it the best basketball game on the market in order to cater to casual players....then those players will leave. And many of them are older gamers with disposable INCOME, not little kids and teeny-boppers. This is not the type of gamer you want to drive away in this day and age of microtransactions and DLC content. Not if you want to make money.

All 2K has to do is add a simple option like this to appease Sim gamers...and they will go nowhere...and neither will their $$$. But if they continue to IGNORE them, they will eventually regret it.

Appealing to the casual gamers sounds great in theory...because you may make some extra sales on the front-end. But the 80/20 rule still factors in...and if you are going to alienate and tick off some of your BIGGEST fans who've been playing this game for a DECADE looking for a Sim experience...that's just bad business. Short-sighted thinking that will eventually come to bite you in the butt.

What's worth more to 2K...???

Is it someone like myself who has spent over $200 on this game....$60 for the game and about $140 or so on VC.....OR....is it 3 "casual" customers who each ONLY bought the game for $60 and have no interest in spending real money on VC or don't have the means, ie they don't have an income or don't have a credit card.

Sacrificing a customer like ME, in order to appeal to 3 "casual" players actually results in 2K LOSING money in this example.

And in terms of how things REALLY work, a customer like myself is actually worth way more than 3 "casuals"....because I am figuring in that $60 as if 2K actually sees all of that....they don't. In reality, they see a only a FRACTION of that.

But money spent on VC, DLC, or add-on content...whatever you want to call it....2K sees almost 100% of that!!! I'm just guessing here, but aside from a small fee the PS Network likely takes, most of this is PURE PROFIT to 2K. Unlike the selling of the physical game...

So what is the TRUE value of a customer here...??

I hope 2K is smart enough to really understand this...because catering to "casuals" may actually be a losing proposition in today's marketplace.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

Sorry I gave a badly worded answer. But my main point was trying to get is the mode will most likely end up like lobbies, barely used and out. Even if we have the mode, what you said, cheeses will leave, less people play, useless server space. (According to 2K)

I see the idea and its good but I see this as what could happen. I could be wrong. I would be happy to be wrong

If they setup the lobbies like they did in NBA 2K11, I honestly don't see how it can be a bad things for gamers. You have your quick ranked matches for the casuals, and unranked lobbies for those players who want to play random people and change the difficulty and quarter lengths.

I played a ton of unranked games in NBA 2K11, because I was able to play 7/8 minute quarters on Superstar/HOF difficulty. I probably played more unranked in NBA 2K11 alone than I have played in NBA 2K4 through NBA 2K10 combined.

[MarvinOida]

If they setup the lobbies like they did in NBA 2K11, I honestly don't see how it can be a bad things for gamers. You have your quick ranked matches for the casuals, and unranked lobbies for those players who want to play random people and change the difficulty and quarter lengths.

I played a ton of unranked games in NBA 2K11, because I was able to play 7/8 minute quarters on Superstar/HOF difficulty. I probably played more unranked in NBA 2K11 alone than I have played in NBA 2K4 through NBA 2K10 combined.

Wait, I just got on idea after reading this, screw adding modes, just fine tune the Quick Match. We don't need to have to code in Lobbies, new online modes. Just make 2K adjust the difficulty/slider set to make sim win more often because I do agree, cheese is awarded too much. Implanting quarter length would be hard but that should be upped to 7 minutes as default. Now, someone get this to Ld2k to make the devs actually read the complaints. Cause I know I want the Slider set/Difficulty up too just like all of you. Everybody wins. Sim players get their realistic basketball, Causals get to play basketball but actually learn the basics, and 2k doesn't need a lot of man power, plus this can be done now.

[Optik]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

If they setup the lobbies like they did in NBA 2K11, I honestly don't see how it can be a bad things for gamers. You have your quick ranked matches for the casuals, and unranked lobbies for those players who want to play random people and change the difficulty and quarter lengths.

I played a ton of unranked games in NBA 2K11, because I was able to play 7/8 minute quarters on Superstar/HOF difficulty. I probably played more unranked in NBA 2K11 alone than I have played in NBA 2K4 through NBA 2K10 combined.

I don't want unranked lobbies. The Hardcore/Normal option suggested by Loudhoops is much better. I honestly don't know why people are offering clearly inferior suggestions. It's like being able to eat a gourmet meal cooked by a famous chef and then just choosing to eat McD's instead.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

I don't want unranked lobbies. The Hardcore/Normal option suggested by Loudhoops is much better. I honestly don't know why people are offering clearly inferior suggestions. It's like being able to eat a gourmet meal cooked by a famous chef and then just choosing to eat McD's instead.

I prefer unranked matches, so I can have a chance to practice with my team online before "risking" my online record. I play to have fun, but I play to win too. Plus some days, I just want to play a "relaxing" game of online basketball without worrying about my online record. Also, there is a small segment of people who ONLY play for fun, but they don't want a god-awful losing record telling how bad they suck. When they had the unranked lobbies, I never had a problem finding an opponent.

I could do the "Hardcore/Normal" online option too, if it means better defense for on-the-ball user. If want my honest opinion, I rather they just bump the online difficulty to Superstar.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

why is 2k13 online quick ranked not

2)the "popular" teams have magnetic abilities on defense and even when you shouldve slid past their body, you dont. i thought i was playing against player ratings but its more to it than that.
.

Yeah something is going on besides ratings. I think they personally code certain teams to be better that goes beyond ratings. I think they give the teams some hidden abilities to play better defensively even if the individual person may not be a solid at one thing the team is.


Play against the Grizzlies against the CPU you will notice that their players go for more steals and play the passing lanes better than some other teams. Not just Conley and Allen I am talking about backups like Arthur, Pondexter. Memphis is like 3rd per game in steals but they play the passing lanes like few teams I have played against in this game. Compare them to a team like the Clippers who lead the NBA in steals something is just different. It is the same for rebounds and other factors. LAL plays better defense in this game than IRL despite Nash DEF was lowered. They have two average or slightly above average on ball defenders. So I agree that I think they "tune" a team to do a little more at some region even if their ratings don't always reflect it.

[DrX]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

i played hundreds of gms online and its all arcade....i play sim and win but its no fun....the stupid animations and momentum swings luck the life out of the gm

[daveberg]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

well after 60 games played online with a 30-30 record, I'm done.

Experiment over. Online is still as bad as its ever been.

Straw that broke the camels back last night for me was a guy who was taking me apart, in a sim fashion I might add, and who I would have gladly lost to - he started trying to take full court charges on EVERY defensive play. That was it. When good players resort to that crap - you know there's no hope out there for the chance to play realistic games.

Back to offline now. Stress free, sim balling.

[TalenT]

Re: Online Ranked Users: Do You Still Look At NBA 2K As A Sim Game?

I really like these three points. They're talking about NBA 2K in this instance, but it can really be applied to all sports games. These points sum up why, IMO, H2H play will never be a good experience for people whose primary reason for playing these games is not competition for competitions sake, but a desire to test out real world sports tactics and strategies in a digital arena.

At some point the "fun factor" or protecting players from failing too miserably from idiotic decision making , became an essential part of the design process and this has arrested the development of sports games, IMO.

This is golden! You're right though. People will try to win at the expense of realism, which I personally, will never understand. I truly believe that it's possible, even for casual gamers, to make this game fun while teaching these cheesers how to play the right way. They same way they figure out "Hey, if I throw this lead pass at the right angle it won't be intercepted" they'll figure out (if they fix these issues to punish them for bad decisions) "If I make a dumb pass in traffic it won't be caught and will result in a turnover". These players just go to what works. If contested 3's don't work as much they'll stop shooting them. Just my two cents.