Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

[mango_prom]

I've spent some time running games in coaching mode and noticed that the CPU calls only a small number of different plays no matter how many alternatives there are.

For example, using the Mavs with only PnR man/ballhandler assigned to every player, the AI runs "2 side" and "Horns Side Roll" for most of the possessions even though there are various different plays available. PNP-3pt plays are never called at all.

There are combinations of plays assigned that break playcalling completely. After removing PnR option plays from the Mavs playbook (including the aforementioned "2 side"), the AI starts freelancing most of the time instead of calling one of the dozen other PnRs available. It seems like most plays are not even recognized by the CPU.

Basically, the game decides to run the "best" play by some apparently broken logic. You can prove this by using "run best play" in coaching mode.
So in my test with the Mavs the best play according to the game was "2 Side" on almost every possession.
After removing this play, the "best play" button is broken and the CPU does not call any play.
If you have more play types assigned to players you won't notice it as much since there's at least some variety, but the majority of plays gets never called at all.

Clearly, the touches tendency is not the main factor in determining plays called. I mean with PnR-man assigned to everyone you'd assume the game would call these plays for every player. Doesn't happen. So what's the actual point of editing the touches tendency when the whole system breaks if you strip the playcalling even down to only 2 play types?

So using Vann's playbooks results in 50 non broken plays the AI almost never uses at all.
Now I play 2k13 on PC only so maybe some console gamers could chime in, maybe it's different after the patch.
I can't test this myself on a console, basically setting a team's plays to PnR only should show that the AI calls maybe 3-4 different plays max and ignores all the other ones. At least that's what happens on PC.

Did you guys notice the same thing?

[slimm44]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

I've spent some time running games in coaching mode and noticed that the CPU calls only a small number of different plays no matter how many alternatives there are.

For example, using the Mavs with only PnR man/ballhandler assigned to every player, the AI runs "2 side" and "Horns Side Roll" for most of the possessions even though there are various different plays available. PNP-3pt plays are never called at all.

There are combinations of plays assigned that break playcalling completely. After removing PnR option plays from the Mavs playbook (including the aforementioned "2 side"), the AI starts freelancing most of the time instead of calling one of the dozen other PnRs available. It seems like most plays are not even recognized by the CPU.

Basically, the game decides to run the "best" play by some apparently broken logic. You can prove this by using "run best play" in coaching mode.
So in my test with the Mavs the best play according to the game was "2 Side" on almost every possession.
After removing this play, the "best play" button is broken and the CPU does not call any play.
If you have more play types assigned to players you won't notice it as much since there's at least some variety, but the majority of plays gets never called at all.

Clearly, the touches tendency is not the main factor in determining plays called. I mean with PnR-man assigned to everyone you'd assume the game would call these plays for every player. Doesn't happen. So what's the actual point of editing the touches tendency when the whole system breaks if you strip the playcalling even down to only 2 play types?

So using Vann's playbooks results in 50 non broken plays the AI almost never uses at all.
Now I play 2k13 on PC only so maybe some console gamers could chime in, maybe it's different after the patch.
I can't test this myself on a console, basically setting a team's plays to PnR only should show that the AI calls maybe 3-4 different plays max and ignores all the other ones. At least that's what happens on PC.

Did you guys notice the same thing?

Unfortunately, yes. Me and another poster from NLSC have been talking about this recently. We've both seen it in scrimmage/quick game/season/association/playoff modes. Regardless of how many plays are in a playbook, the AI will usually only call around 5-6 different plays over the course of an entire game.

I'm going to try testing with Run Plays at 100 instead of 0, but I think I may have already and didn't document it.

[RipCity71252]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

You're not the only one. The CPU not utilizing their full playbook has been an issue in this game for as long as I can remember.

[mango_prom]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

Unfortunately, yes. Me and another poster from NLSC have been talking about this recently. We've both seen it in scrimmage/quick game/season/association/playoff modes. Regardless of how many plays are in a playbook, the AI will usually only call around 5-6 different plays over the course of an entire game.

I'm going to try testing with Run Plays at 100 instead of 0, but I think I may have already and didn't document it.

Lol, actually that' me over at NLSC, didn't want to highjack your thread again Thought maybe here somebody knows what's wrong with the game.
Oh, and Run plays at 100 doesn't help. The only difference is that the AI forces the point guard to enter the 3pt line before initiating a play.
The issue was already in 2k11, where the game did not call plays for PGs at all. I remember there was a thread over at 2k forum back then about the Lakers running the same play for Kobe 30 times in a row or something, lol.
In an association playoff series I play currently there's a 96OVR PG on the other team I've given a touches tendency of 90. Doesn't get a single play called for him for entire games.

Hasn't been improved for years, but glad we've got christmas uniforms and Jay-Z clips.

[slimm44]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

Lol, actually that' me over at NLSC, didn't want to highjack your thread again Thought maybe here somebody knows what's wrong with the game.
Oh, and Run plays at 100 doesn't help. The only difference is that the AI forces the point guard to enter the 3pt line before initiating a play.
The issue was already in 2k11, where the game did not call plays for PGs at all. I remember there was a thread over at 2k forum back then about the Lakers running the same play for Kobe 30 times in a row or something, lol.
In an association playoff series I play currently there's a 96OVR PG on the other team I've given a touches tendency of 90. Doesn't get a single play called for him for entire games.

Hasn't been improved for years, but glad we've got christmas uniforms and Jay-Z clips.

You and your sneaky name-changing.

[mango_prom]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

You're not the only one. The CPU not utilizing their full playbook has been an issue in this game for as long as I can remember.

Did you notice this on console version, too? Did 2k fix this issue with the patch or is everything the same? Consider getting 2k13 for XBox because of online leagues, but is offline playcalling still broken?

[ffaacc03]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

Did you notice this on console version, too? Did 2k fix this issue with the patch or is everything the same? Consider getting 2k13 for XBox because of online leagues, but is offline playcalling still broken?

Have seen just the same few plays ran ... maybe they put a limit of plays per playtype run ... this was an issue also in 2k12 and was addressed in a patch, hopefuly, thus doubtedly, we get one that addresses this for 2k13 ...

[mango_prom]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

Have seen just the same few plays ran ... maybe they put a limit of plays per playtype run ... this was an issue also in 2k12 and was addressed in a patch, hopefuly, thus doubtedly, we get one that addresses this for 2k13 ...

Are your impressions off a console version or PC?

There's no limit to plays used, but the game apparently is scripted to choose the "right" play determined by factors nobody knows. The idea behind this isn't completely wrong, but it's clearly been broken since they introduced the touches system back with 2k10 I think.

That's a major issue and I feel that if the AI would use all 50 plays you can assign to a playbook, we could get this game incredibly close to the real thing. But right now it's hit or miss if CPU teams play like they're supposed to since we don't even know how playcalling truly works.
By simply fixing this we would have enough variety in existing plays to create much deeper gameplay and many issues the community tries to fix with custom rosters are actually caused by the broken playcalling.
I mean why base tendencies on synergy data if the game logic fails to even call most plays in the first place? There are great PnP plays for big men, doesn't matter since the CPU doesn't use them.
Lack of ball movement? Maybe if the AI would use 50 plays instead of 5 the game would become less predictable.

I wonder if this issue is known to 2k. Maybe they don't know, or they don't care at all. Now I'm no game designer, but is such an issue that hard to fix?
Someone must have decided to implement this scripting in the first place and found nothing wrong with it since it's been that way for years.

[mango_prom]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

Alright, this might not be as important as the retro Bulls uniform looking too much like purple and Dwight having the wrong headband color, but in case anybody is interested, after testing how the AI handles play selection, I did the same looking at "touches" in general.
So I've started a fantasy draft season to mix players up, so any scripting based on players on their current teams is off the table.
(fantasy drafts are a joke by the way, since the AI selects in the same order almost every time only looking at OVR...)

The 98 Jazz team I've tested looks like this:
PG - Irving
SG - Evans
SF - Leonard
PF - Malone
C - Asik

Leaving touches at default, Irving and Malone should get most looks.
With Irving having touches at 90 and only PnR Ballhandler assigned, the team's supposed to run a lot of PnRs.
Instead, the game did not call a single play for Irving at all, this is not based on one short game but multiple test runs. Almost every possession is a Low Post play for Malone.

I now decreased the touches tendency for every player down to 0, except for Irving who is still at 90. You know, the one which according to the manual determines how many plays are called for a specific player.

So with Irving being the only player with touches >0 at all, the CPU called a post up for Malone, then a mid range play for Evans.
After that they did not run a single play until 5:00 into the 1st quarter when they called a post up again. Then back to freelance until the end of the quarter.

Really, what the f*** ist going on with this game? I shouldn't care, but 2k is one of the few games I actually pay money for every year. And the effort we get is simply lazy.
Just fix playcalling, and we'd have "next gen gameplay" with all the potential in this game.

[Serra11]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

Alright, this might not be as important as the retro Bulls uniform looking too much like purple and Dwight having the wrong headband color, but in case anybody is interested, after testing how the AI handles play selection, I did the same looking at "touches" in general.
So I've started a fantasy draft season to mix players up, so any scripting based on players on their current teams is off the table.
(fantasy drafts are a joke by the way, since the AI selects in the same order almost every time only looking at OVR...)

The 98 Jazz team I've tested looks like this:
PG - Irving
SG - Evans
SF - Leonard
PF - Malone
C - Asik

Leaving touches at default, Irving and Malone should get most looks.
With Irving having touches at 90 and only PnR Ballhandler assigned, the team's supposed to run a lot of PnRs.
Instead, the game did not call a single play for Irving at all, this is not based on one short game but multiple test runs. Almost every possession is a Low Post play for Malone.

I now decreased the touches tendency for every player down to 0, except for Irving who is still at 90. You know, the one which according to the manual determines how many plays are called for a specific player.

So with Irving being the only player with touches >0 at all, the CPU called a post up for Malone, then a mid range play for Evans.
After that they did not run a single play until 5:00 into the 1st quarter when they called a post up again. Then back to freelance until the end of the quarter.

Really, what the f*** ist going on with this game? I shouldn't care, but 2k is one of the few games I actually pay money for every year. And the effort we get is simply lazy.
Just fix playcalling, and we'd have "next gen gameplay" with all the potential in this game.

Mine it's just a suggestion:try to decrease,maybe to 0,all the freelance tendencies and leave the 90 in touches only to Irving????

[STLRams]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

I wonder if the 2K devs are aware of this issue, if not we need to inform them and have them fix it, could affect gamplay in a major way.

[mango_prom]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

Mine it's just a suggestion:try to decrease,maybe to 0,all the freelance tendencies and leave the 90 in touches only to Irving????

Good point. Actually I've tried this before since it makes sense that freelance tendencies could play into this. Like a high Iso tendency could mean more isolations called. But it doesn't work.
I use Slimms roster for PC, and he has freelancing edited as good as it gets.
Makes no difference in playcalling.
Also I don't like freelancing in 2k13, if the CPU doesn't call plays you can see how stupid the AI actually is.

Again, can't say whether this issue applies for patched XBox/PS3 versions, but on PC the whole thing is pretty much broken.
It works if you use default rosters and don't care about which plays the AI uses, but the moment you start to mix up players or want to change the way teams play by editing touches, you're pretty much screwed.
The whole thing is scripted the way 2k likes it, and I doubt they care that much about stuff like that.

[Serra11]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

Good point. Actually I've tried this before since it makes sense that freelance tendencies could play into this. Like a high Iso tendency could mean more isolations called. But it doesn't work.
I use Slimms roster for PC, and he has freelancing edited as good as it gets.
Makes no difference in playcalling.
Also I don't like freelancing in 2k13, if the CPU doesn't call plays you can see how stupid the AI actually is.

Again, can't say whether this issue applies for patched XBox/PS3 versions, but on PC the whole thing is pretty much broken.
It works if you use default rosters and don't care about which plays the AI uses, but the moment you start to mix up players or want to change the way teams play by editing touches, you're pretty much screwed.
The whole thing is scripted the way 2k likes it, and I doubt they care that much about stuff like that.

With Hyperballer roster on Xbox360,I decreased to 0 every Freelance tendencies and Touches for each Thunder starter apart Westbrook's Touches,wich is 90 or 99...

In-game(Pro and HOF level),every play called by Oklahoma was just a pick and roll or iso for Westbrook.

So for the xbox seems that the cpu recognised properly the Touches ratings.

[mango_prom]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

With Hyperballer roster on Xbox360,I decreased to 0 every Freelance tendencies and Touches for each Thunder starter apart Westbrook's Touches,wich is 90 or 99...

In-game(Pro and HOF level),every play called by Oklahoma was just a pick and roll or iso for Westbrook.

So for the xbox seems that the cpu recognised properly the Touches ratings.

What happens if you have every freelance tendency at 0, how does the CPU react if a play breaks down? Do they all just stand around or is there still some movement happening?

Yeah maybe the issue is PC only, I'll probably borrow the game for XBox to be sure before I spend money on it though. If on consoles touches work just fine and the AI uses the whole playbook getting the game is probably better than waiting for the excuse of a patch we get in maybe April for PC.

[Serra11]

Re: Is CPU Playcalling/Touches Broken?

What happens if you have every freelance tendency at 0, how does the CPU react if a play breaks down? Do they all just stand around or is there still some movement happening?

Just a big,enormous...mess!