CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

[Knissley]

I'm truly curious, because almost anytime I see a new card all I can think of is "how in the hell did they come up with this?"

Take just this RC for example,

You can make a case Chris Paul is one of the greatest defensive PGs of all-time. The man has his name etched in history beside many a steals record, 6 total all-defensive appearances including 4(FOUR) first teams. He holds opposing PGs to their lowest PERs, and allows the lowest FG% among PGs.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2376198-explaining-chris-pauls-dominance-as-nbas-premier-point-guard-stopper

http://grantland.com/features/department-of-defense/

And yet not only is it one of his worst stats on his RC card.. HIS DEF IS LOWER THAN DIRK NOWITZKI?! You dont necessarily have to give him Gary Payton defense, but his DEF on his leg, star, and now RC cards are a complete joke.

We've put up with some crazy discrepancies in stats, but now its appearing more and more that you don't even watch the sport. When I asked during Q&A how you could come up with CP3's DEF being lower than Dirk's, you kind of dodged the question, saying it's all done thru a spreadsheet and that you don't account for changes in the middle of a season.

As if his 4 all-nba 1st team selections were just handed out this All-Star break.

Nobody who has watched bball could give CP3 a lower DEF rating than Dirk Nowitzki, so please, CD, explain yourself.

And now that we have the pre-game, we have even further proof you don't watch bball as Blake Griffin's stats(and his picture, to be honest) are just repulsive.

You put his playmaking as his lowest stat.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f96b5XAbHhc, go to :35, 3:15, 3:48, 4:10, 4:15, most of the ones after are passes too, but check out about 6:40), and despite being known as a liability on DEF you put his DEF not only equal to his superhuman athleticism, but higher than his REB.

I would love some kind of explanation that doesn't involve "oh, well we just blindly look at some spreadsheet, and we don't see what happens during the season, mostly cuz we don't see what happens during any season."

[Ultim8]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

The truth is their current card creation rules do not allow huge discrepancies between cards in the same tier. Last year people were bitching about how bad Yao Ming and Chris Mullin were because their Legendary cards were the worst and noone wanted to pull one of this from the draft board or packs. Therefore they cannot properly reflect players' true stats in 5 categories. What they aim for (at least it seems so) is the balance between different assets of a player's game comparing to each other, so that Dirk's best stat is his Offense in comparison to his other abilities. With all that said, however, BG's star still baffles me.

[JBGlass]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

I looked at Griffins pic and thought were there not any better ones, Jamal Crawford is not a Bruiser and instead of Rolando Blackmon, Derek Harper we get:

[Knissley]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

The truth is their current card creation rules do not allow huge discrepancies between cards in the same tier. Last year people were bitching about how bad Yao Ming and Chris Mullin were because their Legendary cards were the worst and noone wanted to pull one of this from the draft board or packs. Therefore they cannot properly reflect players' true stats in 5 categories. What they aim for (at least it seems so) is the balance between different assets of a player's game comparing to each other, so that Dirk's best stat is his Offense in comparison to his other abilities. With all that said, however, BG's star still baffles me.

Well by discrepancies I more meant between the card and their real life counter parts. I agree the balance within tiers has been great this year, but the cards really don't reflect the real player too often.

If they were going just for balance's sake, CP3's OFF should be lower than his DEF, because as great a offensive player as he is, he'll shut it off and just dish, but he never shuts off being a lockdown defender.

For a very rough representation, they could've done this: (1-10, 10 highest)
OFF: 9
DEF: 9
REB: 1
PM : 10
ATH: 2

Obviously I dont quite know off the top of my head how this stacks up, but thats the general idea I have. PM his very highest since he's one of the best passers all-time, then DEF and OFF either equal or lower OFF a little more and improve DEF.

[eVizions]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

I agree. Rodman's rebounding and defense should be the majority of his points. The fact that Anthony Davis is one of the few guys that can win OFF vs DEF (and only with supports) bothers me. There should be truer levels of attributes. CP3 should definitely have a significantly higher defensive rating.

[Knissley]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

I agree. Rodman's rebounding and defense should be the majority of his points. The fact that Anthony Davis is one of the few guys that can win OFF vs DEF (and only with supports) bothers me. There should be truer levels of attributes. CP3 should definitely have a significantly higher defensive rating.

Yeah, Rodman's DEF being lower than LeBron's DEF really pissed me off after that RC. Show me LeBron's two DPOYs.

[Tank4ever]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

Before I answer, could you post what you think their stats should be? Its important to the point I want to make.

[Knissley]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

Before I answer, could you post what you think their stats should be? Its important to the point I want to make.

Do you mean exact stats or like which I think should be higher? Cuz I haven't looked through the spreadsheet or anything to see how they should be.

Though it wouldn't be hard to look at the other RC Stars and see how I think CP3 should stack up.

E: If you meant exact, I went through and added all the RC card's stats to get their totals.
Lebron was 4241
Rodman was 4213
Aldridge was 4203
Kobe was 4202
Durant was 4202

First thing I noticed was the absurd difference from LBJ to everyone else, then I saw that the most recent ones have been either 4203 or 4202, so I decided CP3 should be 4205.
Going with that, I got:
(CP3)
OFF: 898
DEF: 885
REB: 756
PM : 866
ATH: 800

Though he's a decent rebounding PG, I figure to make the balance work and that a REB PG is essentially useless in this game, I lowered that a ton. I think a small bit higher than Kobe, Durant, and Aldridge is reasonable, and I think these stats more accurately portray Chris Paul.

[Musubi]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

I understand things like Nick Young having a higher OFF than Kobe or MJ or something like that, since the way cards work is all the stats add up to basically the same sum in each tier, the only difference being the distribution. So someone like Young who is only good at scoring, shouldn't have any distribution into the other stats, making his OFF much higher than a more well-balanced card. Ultimately, it comes down to what stats you think should be prioritized, understanding that it's all about the distribution, not the actual number that should distinguish a card.

That being said, DeAndre Jordan having a high OFF than DEF or REB is absolutely pitiful, as are all the other examples of terribly distributed player stats. For CP3, I'm okay with his DEF being low since that allowed prioritization of PM, but I think the solution is to lower his REB even more to compensate for DEF, not massively boost OFF like every other player in the game. Have we ever gotten a statement on the terrible balancing of OFF in this game? It's like they aren't even trying.

[Knissley]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

I understand things like Nick Young having a higher OFF than Kobe or MJ or something like that, since the way cards work is all the stats add up to basically the same sum in each tier, the only difference being the distribution. So someone like Young who is only good at scoring, shouldn't have any distribution into the other stats, making his OFF much higher than a more well-balanced card. Ultimately, it comes down to what stats you think should be prioritized, understanding that it's all about the distribution, not the actual number that should distinguish a card.

That being said, DeAndre Jordan having a high OFF than DEF or REB is absolutely pitiful, as are all the other examples of terribly distributed player stats. For CP3, I'm okay with his DEF being low since that allowed prioritization of PM, but I think the solution is to lower his REB even more to compensate for DEF, not massively boost OFF like every other player in the game. Have we ever gotten a statement on the terrible balancing of OFF in this game? It's like they aren't even trying.

In the Q&A, GameDad was asked:
"Why is defense so bad in this game, and can anything be done about it? Defensive Players of the Year are terrible, and most cards have Offense as a super high stat, even when it makes little to no sense for the player. "

His reponse:
"I have heard the complaint about Offense ruling the game this year. From a spreadsheet standpoint, it isn't true. The 5 stats all have similar point values when you look at them across all of the cards. Also, the in game events and what stat they use is balanced across all 5 stats. However, I hear you in practice that it doesn't feel that way. Something that I am disappointed about with the 5 stat system. There isn't an easy fix to it right now since if we just boosted Defense it would simply make it the new "best" stat."

I took another maybe 5 minutes and came up with this for Blake Griffin while keeping his stat totals the same:
Blake Griffin:
OFF: 743 ( Orig. 756)
DEF: 669 ( Orig. 704)
REB: 704 ( Orig. 688)
PM : 680 ( Orig. 664)
ATH: 720 ( Orig. 704)

I think that's a lot more accurate, and they obviously should be putting even more time into it.

[Tank4ever]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

Do you mean exact stats or like which I think should be higher? Cuz I haven't looked through the spreadsheet or anything to see how they should be.

Though it wouldn't be hard to look at the other RC Stars and see how I think CP3 should stack up.

E: If you meant exact, I went through and added all the RC card's stats to get their totals.
Lebron was 4241
Rodman was 4213
Aldridge was 4203
Kobe was 4202
Durant was 4202

First thing I noticed was the absurd difference from LBJ to everyone else, then I saw that the most recent ones have been either 4203 or 4202, so I decided CP3 should be 4205.
Going with that, I got:
(CP3)
OFF: 898
DEF: 885
REB: 756
PM : 866
ATH: 800

Though he's a decent rebounding PG, I figure to make the balance work and that a REB PG is essentially useless in this game, I lowered that a ton. I think a small bit higher than Kobe, Durant, and Aldridge is reasonable, and I think these stats more accurately portray Chris Paul.

That card's too OP. Dirk's offense is on par with Kobe, Durant, Aldridge, & Lebron which are all 4150+. Nothing beats them. CP3 is only 50pts below so you're gonna give CP3 a 4100 OFF & DEF + a 3950 PM. Like you said the other stats are useless already so taking points from them dont matter, but adding points to the other stats matter drastically. Your CP3 is the card equivalent of a 3/2 LU.

e: as for Blake dont have many problems with it. He doesn't play good def or get many blocks but he's top 10 in steals for big men & his reb the last 3 season has not been great (sub 10 per game). Do think take transfer a few OFF pts into ATH would be great or make him like a Derozan type card. give him high ATH & an OFF ability

[Knissley]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

That card's too OP. Dirk's offense is on par with Kobe, Durant, Aldridge, & Lebron which are all 4150+. Nothing beats them. So you're gonna give CP3 a 4100 OFF & DEF + a 3950 PM. Like you said the other stats are useless already so taking points from them dont matter, but adding points to the other stats matter drastically. Your CP3 is the card equivalent of a 3/2 LU.

I think it's worth keeping in mind that I'm not saying only CP3 should be changed, I have problems with a lot of the cards in this game. The simple fact is CP3 is an incredible defender and they should address that in his stats. Having his DEF lower than Dirk's is blasphemous.

[Tank4ever]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

I think it's worth keeping in mind that I'm not saying only CP3 should be changed, I have problems with a lot of the cards in this game. The simple fact is CP3 is an incredible defender and they should address that in his stats. Having his DEF lower than Dirk's is blasphemous.

I would just say swap his ATH & DEF then. 834 DEF 814 OFF. And I could be wrong but I think taller cards generally have higher DEF stats just because they're taller.

Do agree this games needs drastic rebalancing next year. Seems to me like they made REB the anti-OFF instead of DEF. The top REB stats can compete with OFF. They still lose to the best, but they dont lose to almost every OFF stat like DEF does (outside of AD & maybe Kawhi).

[Knissley]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

I would just say swap his ATH & DEF then. 834 DEF 814 OFF. And I could be wrong but I think taller cards generally have higher DEF stats just because they're taller.

Do agree this games needs drastic rebalancing next year. Seems to me like they made REB the anti-OFF instead of DEF. The top REB stats can compete with OFF. They still lose to the best, but they dont lose to almost every OFF stat like DEF does (outside of AD & maybe Kawhi).

Since drastically rebalancing every card would be insane, and even crazier to request so far into the game, I would understand swapping those two. But then it's still a huge problem to me that his DEF would only be I think 4 points higher than Dirk's.

Also, if that actually is their thinking (taller player = higher DEF) then that's a complete BS way to do it.

[littlemun]

Re: CD, Do you Watch Basketball?

You should use an example like Nick Young's STAR card rather than CP3's stat for questioning CD...