Basketball is NOT Hockey

[DETERMINOLOGY]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

Tomba you have hit the nail on the head there buddy.........

REALISM is the fun factor you guys are missing ReAnimator!!!!

the reason your game is geting bashed and wil continue to be bashed is because it doesn't portray realism.......(ie...

When Kobe shoots like kobe and dunks like kobe...the kobe we see in real nba games...that's fun.......

when duncan does his bank shot off the glass 15 ft jumper...that's fun

when steve nash runs around the court dishing dimes like a mad man that's fun......

when shak races up the court after a punishing dunk in somebodies face...that's fun........

okay what am I saying ...yes that stuff is FUN, but we want a blance of fun and realism.........like the lakers triangle or the suns pick and roll or golden state's helter skelter run and gun offense...signature moves and shots...signature defense.....and blocks...dwight howards blocks wayyyyyy different thatn most people.....realism......ginobili's flops on defense.....wise cracking commentary ....tension on the court after a hard foul.....real injuries..that are noticable when the player comes back into the game...real fatigue.........real sweat......realism.......last minute game heriocs...natural body collision.....box-outs underneathe the basket...jersey's getting pulled on by a beat player....realism.......

Bottom line realism will equal FUN....just sayin

I agree 100 percent with you

[rEAnimator]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

How is what 2K is doing not going to grow the market? I'm very confused as to why you assume that... Im more than positive the market will grow when people see the greatest player of all time on a basketball video game.... even children who dont play video games will have attention to that because they see jordan as world wide icon....

We will find out, but the point I was making is that what 2k and Live have been doing this generation has failed to grow the market. It has had the exact opposite effect.

Staying the course was not an option, and I wanted people to understand that since I kept hearing "no one asked for better controls".

Time will tell, but having differentiated products will have a much greater chance of growing the market than two products that are very, very similar.

We'll see how it all pans out

[rEAnimator]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

Whats from the heart reaches the heart.. and this whole model of going after a market share instead of going to the fans first, I just dont see how the success is sure.

The market is the fans. They are the same thing.

[jlbrown143]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

We did take over the AI logic from Live 10, and added Real AI to handle the new dribbling mechanics.

ReAnimator...I have to say that even though you say that you've brought the logic over I don't see it in places that i hope you will put it eventually,

like the logic I don't see is that if a player is in foul trouble the computer is not trying to get the player fouled out or when the game is on the line I don't see the computer assessing the game and who is hot or the go to guy...(you know strategic stuff...) to try to win the game for the team....or say if my player is throwing up bricks all game why doesn't the coach take the guy out....??? where is all the stategy that should be in the game, or if the computer is beating you with a certain play or player why not keep using those weapons until we as the user find a way to stop it? realism....? if it's in there can you show it to us or somebody? like I said before if you come through on those things you won't have a problem selling your game at all...or to anybody.....!

keep it real......the thing that gets me is the NBA game is right there for you guys to compare your game to ...do you not compare the fluidity of your moves and things like that with real NBA players and the games themselves? because it is obvious the robotic moments stick out like a sore thumb..among other things....why is it you guys only see these crazy things once you release the video's or demo's ??

[noshun]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

We will find out, but the point I was making is that what 2k and Live have been doing this generation has failed to grow the market. It has had the exact opposite effect.

Staying the course was not an option, and I wanted people to understand that since I kept hearing "no one asked for better controls".

Time will tell, but having differentiated products will have a much greater chance of growing the market than two products that are very, very similar.

We'll see how it all pans out

Bad games have been making the market shrink and since Live 06, EA has been churning out bad game after bad game. Live 10 was the better, but thats not saying much considering every game since 06 from EA.

As far as the we need to change the controls, what and how did EA determine that there was a market for this new control scheme in its NBA games when people werent clamoring for new controls? Where did they get this research from?
People have been asking for presentation for years. Those surveys after Live 07/08 pretty much asked us what we liked, and you basically had to lie on those surveys because any question that asked what game did you own and if you answered 2k, the survey ended right after selecting 2k.

I understand you had to be different from 2k but where and how did you guys research this, and decided on it? I dont recall surveys after Live 10.

[Playmakers]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

Whats the applause for the honesty? It had to come out one day didnt it? Because IMO this game is far and away an NBA sim as told. The whole revolutionary, change the way you play the game stuff... Not gonna fly this year.

Since we're all being honest here, im sure its still taken down

but I remember that nasty blog the execs at EA threw out at 2k, saying how people are selling 2k10 on Craigslist and using quotes from posters here on OS, only to have 2k10 sell record numbers despite having the worst controls of the series.

I think that EA is biting off more than it can chew. Before you start analyzing market share, you have to first make a relevant game. We've been paying 65 dollars for game this gen with promises that gave us broken features, advertised tech that failed and or was abandoned ,constant reboots, games with modes grayed out, games that are missing franchise features, robotic movement, and on and on and one ALL they way to selling a college game that freezes and leaving the customers out high and dry, not even so much as an answer.

That right there was a huge slap in the face to the people you say I want your money.

Its almost like they dont understand the reason for the constant fail.. everything is not dictated by short term numbers. How about a real vision, for a real life game, and getting as close to that as possible?

Right now people dont trust EA, and its all EA's fault. Before you can eat the fat, you have to get to the meat, and you cannot just abandon the people around you and go for the ones outside the city. I can hardly think of 1 wishlist this gen where the fans felt like they were listened to and had their complaints shut down. I remember Admiral complaining about slipperly sliding back on the Xbox 1... and in the 2011 games its still there... thats absolutely incredible.

Whats from the heart reaches the heart.. and this whole model of going after a market share instead of going to the fans first, I just dont see how the success is sure. Im sorry but I dont believe in this model one bit, and the way it was brought out was bad. Honestly, had we not seen the boozer dunk in the Venice clips, those ft line dunks would be in the retail... That wasnt some mishap, it was there on purpose. Is that what you really think people want??

If so then NBA Street should still be on the market...but then again I thought thats what NBA Jam was for. I have so much more on the mind but man this is incredible. What is Mr Moore thinking up there? Where are the thinking basketball heads at?

Kinda dissapointed that i would have editing threads over at NBA Live Community and some dev's would actually post in those threads about wanting to change the game and ask for opinions and salutions to some of the problems in Live over the years.

I gave them my opinions and i my feelings on how to fix some of the gameplay issues on the floor.

Now they are saying any feedback we provided to them as a community wasn't important.....

The market is the thing that was important.....they could have had those community events for the past 5 years and it wouldn't matter because the market dictates what type of game they create..............

I realized after playing more of the demo that this game would be best served just going with the flow and editing it to play a controlled arcade style of play. That is why i told guys to just turn it into a uptempo game and have fun once it's released.

EA could have told us this way back in April or May it wasn't suppose to cater to SIM style players. They invited guys to their community day with expectations of SIM style play being the purpose of them attending.

How many of those guys would have shown up if EA had told them the truth that game wasn't being designed for SIM style play but for what the market wanted to see................

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

Poor offerings of EA basketball titles are to blame.
2k10 sold 2,5 million copies. How is that bad?
I feel like I'm on a different planet than EA when it comes to bball gaming.

Sony is gone, Microsoft is gone, there are no college games, and Live's sells were at a generation low. The B-ball vid game market had absolutely shrunk.

I feel a lot like Tomba. I get frustrated with business assessments that miss the forest through the trees and I want to blindly critique and critize. So I have to give it up rEAnimator. That was real and honest.

[LingeringRegime]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

Great points noshun. Presentation has been disregarded for years. I don't remember anyone ever pleading for a new control scheme. Seems that the course was already laid out for us, and we all have to be "conditioned" to get on board. At least that is the vibe that I am getting.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

OK, so here's the straight goods. I was debating whether or not to post this, but I think the Live fans who are disappointed deserve an explanation as to why we changed direction like we did.

This is for guys like WTF, Pared, Behindshadows, Court_vision, 23 and anyone else who has supported Live over the years and feel let down or betrayed by the changes made in Elite.

This is not an apology, but an explanation, and explanation you deserve.

It's no secret that Live was losing market share to 2K. And despite the fact that Live 10 was critically well received, the market share did not reflect that.

But that was not the reason for the change.

Now this is the part sim fans on this forum are going to have a hard time hearing. But I think you deserve the honest truth.

The basketball category as a whole, ie the number of people who buy either Live OR 2K has been shrinking.

That is the number one reason for the change in direction.

If the market for basketball games was healthy and growing, or even maintaining a healthy number, we'd be battling toe to toe with the market leader trying to win back market share.

But the truth is that people have been leaving basketball games behind. There is certainly a healthy hard core base of fans here, and the community is stronger than ever before.

But the numbers are shrinking. That is an undeniable fact.

Now look at it from EA's standpoint. Live was losing market share in a shrinking market.

That is not a good position to be in. Something had to change. We not only needed to grow market share, but we needed to grow the market.

The hard core sim gamer obviously likes 2K quite a bit. But as successful as they are, what 2K is doing is not enough to grow the market.

So we needed to try something different. Something innovative. Something to bring back fans who'd left, and appeal to basketball fans who don't play video games.

That is where the emphasis on control and a dynamic, unpredictable gameplay experience came from.

Focus on fun and control, to draw in the people who play drop in at the Y and dream about competing in the NBA, but don't play basketball games.

Given the time constraints, we had to let the visuals suffer to accomplish our goals.

We feel we succeeded. The game is a ton of fun to play.

Would we have liked to have beautiful visuals as well? Yes of course, but we had to make some hard choices.

And we stand by them.

What does that mean for the sim gamer? Are we leaving you behind?

No, not at all.

We feel the hardcore sim gamer is vital to the future success of Elite. No question about it. It's the solid foundation the market is built on.

But we had to grow that market and try something new.

The response so far on this forum has been much more negative that I would have liked. I'm not going to lie.

I was hoping to hear people say things like "well it doesn't look as good, but man it really represents the sport well. It feels more like I'm playing real life basketball than any other game, and it's FUN".

I still think that sentiment will prevail, but a lot of long time fans feel let down.

And I understand why.

But hopefully this gives you a better understanding of why we focused on what we did.

Everyone knows that competition is good for everyone, and we're trying as hard as we can to make the basketball market as healthy as possible so you can continue to enjoy competing franchises for years to come.

That may mean we didn't deliver everything you (the sim gamer) wanted in Elite, but we did deliver something fantastic.

And if you take the time to understand and appreciate the depth of the raw basketball skill based gameplay, I can promis you that you'll have a ton of fun testing your skills against your friends and opponents online.

This is the thing that jumped out at me. How could you guys expect Elite to be a better representation of real life basketball when you openly admit to getting some vital aspects of basketball wrong? This game is not responsive and unrealistic(in more ways than the competiton) how could that possibly be a better representation?

I think Elite can be the base of a real great sim hoops series ,but I think you may have doomed yourself by design. You made a game that only a hardcore sim player can appreciate ,but made it with the causal gamers in mind. There is no way you guys are going to pull in causal gamers making the game more complicated to play ,on top of taking away from graphics ,and taking away from the details that attract causal gamers. I just dont understand how anybody would think that this was the formula to "Grow the market".

[HoosierDaddy]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

I'm somewhat troubled by some of these comments, honestly. Isn't the whole purpose of video games to reflect what people see in real-life and actually be able to determine the outcome yourself, play with your favorite players and have fun? It's not that difficult.

[ryan36]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

Well, I applaud reanimator for being a class act on these boards.

I will say this, it seems like whoever makes choices at EA is confused. With Madden they watned simpler deeper quicker and with their NBA title you can't figure out what your doing after 40 min of gameplay? Something doesn't seem right.

If the controls of a game MAKE SENSE they'll be intuitive. But I will gamefly both games maybe and then make a choice

[Mintsa]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

That's a pretty straight forward answer by rEAnimator.......at least your being honest and telling us exactly where you guys (EA) are coming from.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

Well, I applaud reanimator for being a class act on these boards.

That's a pretty straight forward answer by rEAnimator.......at least your being honest and telling us exactly where you guys (EA) are coming from.

Agreed. Hats off to rEAnimator. He has been here weither we have loved his post or not. Much respect.

[jlbrown143]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

The market is the fans. They are the same thing.

First let me just say this 23 and you other mods...this is not a comparision in the normal sense but ReAnimator is opening the door to this comparison...first off what fans are you referring too..??

because I have yet to see your executives or even you guys reference what you've taken from this site of fans as information to help in the reconstruction of your game..now 2k developers (as it seems to me only) just seems to listen more intently to what we (the fans ) gamers want to see n their game and go out the very same oR next year time permitting to make those things a reality for us case in point just this years version of 2k alone has been an effort to quiet any and all gripes, complaints and issues ...now were they able to do that? well see when we get the game but at least it seems the are attemping to get the problems fixed.....

Now as it relates to Elite...since 06 live has been a joke of a game as it relates to animations, signature moves and whole lot of other things sliding, players running through players, online cheesing, net physics,NO legit haftime show or post game show ( what happen to break away rims?) rocket dunks...the best things about live at those times to me was the crowd and the graphics (man this sounds familiar)..and the interface getting to different screens were pretty cool, and acourse the music tracks were great,

but when live 10 came out we had hope that we as gamers were finally on track to get a game that we had been hopiing for all these years..all the years of playmaker, 23 , sageinfinite and others defending live until the death, seemed like that payoff was finally coming for the live series, then all the announcements about mike wang, and the other developers were leaving EA Sports...we all (the fans) said oh crap there goes the realism for sure... WHY WOULD YOU GUYS LET A PERSON WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF MIKE WANG GET AWAY?.....

we as gamers thought we were about to get the best of both worlds with him on board..but BOinG!!!! the execs mess that up...wait! that's not the bad part...even with mike wang going back to 2k we still thought he might have shared enough with the company that we would still get a good game especially with all of the new "ANIMATIONS" live 10 was able to bring to the table.....but then you released the videos of Elite and then later the demo and all the air in the ballon just went out.......and now you are trying to tell us (the fans) that this is what we asked for????...really...seriously?

ps...I dont know about anybody else but it seems to me that the changes you guys have made this time around are just changes you are telling us we will have to just live with!

[HoosierDaddy]

Re: Basketball is NOT Hockey

With all due respect, Geoff isn't saying this is what we've asked for. It's the nature of the business, whether we like it or not. It's hard to employ developers when games don't sell, I understand all of that. However, it's frustrating that Live 10 showed so much promise, when the fact of the matter is, Live 06-09 is where EA lost most of it's money. You were on the right track and basically started over again. That's why we're upset and disappointed. I think 90% of us would've been happy to take Live 10, merge it with your ideas of controls, and add even more signature sets and animations.