NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

I'd love to get into a discussion of sim vs. arcade at some point (maybe in its own thread).

People throw around the words all the time, but I'd really like to know what people mean when they use the terms.

I have my own views, but I have a feeling everyone has a slightly different perspective on it.

I think it would be an interesting topic for discussion.

Reanimator, I'm basing MY OPINION of "arcade style" basketball on a few different things....Primarily, if the pace of the game is to fast and its just a run and gun style with dunks left and right and little defense in between, it's closer to an arcade style. Now, like I said, having only seen just the one video in combination with some other things I've read, I'm leaning towards believing this may be closer to what I believe to be more of an arcade style game, rather than sim. I hope I'm wrong though.

If you read my other posts, you know I buy both basketball games, every year. I don't know the specifics of the Mike Wang issue, but I do know that he cited leaving the Live series because he didn't like the direction the series was headed. The translation for me is, "the game is going arcade"... From what I understand and having been a 2K fan since the original 2K dropped, Wang is a "sim" guy, what else would he mean when he says "I don't like the direction and ideas of the Live series". Bottom line is, come October, undoubtedly I'll be buying both games, again.

EVERYONE ELSE not named reanimator: Can't a guy have an opinion around here, without all these newcomers who just signed up, jumping all over my back..Half you guys don't even read the entire posts, you just read the first sentence, disagree with what you read and then rush into some argumentative reply. Chill out and read the whole post. I got 2 guys jumping on me about assuming the game is arcade because of the "controls" when I didn't even mention a word about controls in my post. Chill out people.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

Reanimator, I'm basing MY OPINION of "arcade style" basketball on a few different things....Primarily, if the pace of the game is to fast and its just a run and gun style with dunks left and right and little defense in between, it's closer to an arcade style. Now, like I said, having only seen just the one video in combination with some other things I've read, I'm leaning towards believing this may be closer to what I believe to be more of an arcade style game, rather than sim. I hope I'm wrong though.

If you read my other posts, you know I buy both basketball games, every year. I don't know the specifics of the Mike Wang issue, but I do know that he cited leaving the Live series because he didn't like the direction the series was headed. The translation for me is, "the game is going arcade"... From what I understand and having been a 2K fan since the original 2K dropped, Wang is a "sim" guy, what else would he mean when he says "I don't like the direction and ideas of the Live series". Bottom line is, come October, undoubtedly I'll be buying both games, again.

EVERYONE ELSE not named reanimator: Can't a guy have an opinion around here, without all these newcomers who just signed up, jumping all over my back..Half you guys don't even read the entire posts, you just read the first sentence, disagree with what you read and then rush into some argumentative reply. Chill out and read the whole post. I got 2 guys jumping on me about assuming the game because of the "controls" when I didn't even mention a word about controls in my post. Chill out people.

No worries man, I totally respect your opinion. That's part of why I asked about the arcade/sim terminology and what is means to everyone.

I think your point about game speed being a factor is an interesting one. It definitely makes sense, especially if you think about other genres like racing games for example.

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to throw out an observation I've made and see what people think.

I think we can all agree that a game like NBA Street or NBA Jam are arcade basketball games. They bend the rules of the game and bend the rules of physics to deliver a more over the top experience. And as you pointed out, games like these tend to have a high pace as well.

For me, Elite and Live are both basketball sim games. But they approach the sim experience from very different places.

I see them living on a spectrum.

On the left hand side you've got yourself in real life playing as a basketball player in the NBA.

On the far right you've got yourself watching an NBA game on TV.

If you were to write a basketball simulation, you could start on either end of that spectrum.

Do you recreate the outcomes you see on television using statistics and probabilities, and then present those outcomes by playing back appropriate animations that were captured in a mocap studio?

Or do you try and recreate the physics of everything involved in the simulation to the most tiny detail?

As you move from pure simulation to a video game, you move from either the left or the right towards a middle ground.

Coming from the right hand side, you start to allow the user to interact with the simulation by calling the plays, making the substitutions, maybe telling players when to perform certain actions. The players are still themselves, performing the actions as they see fit, but they are taking direction from the user.

Coming from the left hand side, they allow the user to manipulate the physical objects in the simulation. Moving the legs and arms like a marionette. You have the physical capabilities of the person you are controlling, but you have complete control over what happens.

Obviously neither of these examples exist in real life, but I think they help paint a picture of the spectrum I see the games lying on. I think both games are sim games, what what they are simulating and how they simulate it are different.

You can probably guess that in my opinion, Live is more to the right on that spectrum, and Elite is more to the left on the spectrum.

Neither game is arcade, and neither game is "more sim" than the other.

It's just that their priorities and how they decide to simulate the world of basketball is different.

This year we're focusing more on controls and simulating the physics of the world. That's what makes Elite unique and that much more different from Live.

So when you watch videos, you may think Live "looks more realistic", but don't be fooled by the beauty of a perfectly mocapped two player animation.

There's a lot more going on under the hood when you're simulating the physics, and I'd personally take a dynamic physically simulated game with great controls but a few visual warts, over a picture perfect two player animation based game that has less responsive controls and fewer outcomes.

But this is all just my personal take on things.

I'd love to hear what others think.

[ParisB]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

No worries man, I totally respect your opinion. That's part of why I asked about the arcade/sim terminology and what is means to everyone.

I think your point about game speed being a factor is an interesting one. It definitely makes sense, especially if you think about other genres like racing games for example.

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to throw out an observation I've made and see what people think.

I think we can all agree that a game like NBA Street or NBA Jam are arcade basketball games. They bend the rules of the game and bend the rules of physics to deliver a more over the top experience. And as you pointed out, games like these tend to have a high pace as well.

For me, Elite and Live are both basketball sim games. But they approach the sim experience from very different places.

I see them living on a spectrum.

On the left hand side you've got yourself in real life playing as a basketball player in the NBA.

On the far right you've got yourself watching an NBA game on TV.

If you were to write a basketball simulation, you could start on either end of that spectrum.

Do you recreate the outcomes you see on television using statistics and probabilities, and then present those outcomes by playing back appropriate animations that were captured in a mocap studio?

Or do you try and recreate the physics of everything involved in the simulation to the most tiny detail?

As you move from pure simulation to a video game, you move from either the left or the right towards a middle ground.

Coming from the right hand side, you start to allow the user to interact with the simulation by calling the plays, making the substitutions, maybe telling players when to perform certain actions. The players are still themselves, performing the actions as they see fit, but they are taking direction from the user.

Coming from the left hand side, they allow the user to manipulate the physical objects in the simulation. Moving the legs and arms like a marionette. You have the physical capabilities of the person you are controlling, but you have complete control over what happens.

Obviously neither of these examples exist in real life, but I think they help paint a picture of the spectrum I see the games lying on. I think both games are sim games, what what they are simulating and how they simulate it are different.

You can probably guess that in my opinion, Live is more to the right on that spectrum, and Elite is more to the left on the spectrum.

Neither game is arcade, and neither game is "more sim" than the other.

It's just that their priorities and how they decide to simulate the world of basketball is different.

This year we're focusing more on controls and simulating the physics of the world. That's what makes Elite unique and that much more different from Live.

So when you watch videos, you may think Live "looks more realistic", but don't be fooled by the beauty of a perfectly mocapped two player animation.

There's a lot more going on under the hood when you're simulating the physics, and I'd personally take a dynamic physically simulated game with great controls but a few visual warts, over a picture perfect two player animation based game that has less responsive controls and fewer outcomes.

But this is all just my personal take on things.

I'd love to hear what others think.

ding ding ding

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

ding ding ding

I think I'm going to bring my post here over to the physics thread as it may be out of place here and people may not get a chance to read it and join in on the discussion.

If anyone has any follow up to the post, please follow me to that thread to continue the discussion.

Thanks.

[donkey33]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

Let's be honest here. Half the reason I think it is the most improved is that is was so bad last year. Don't knock this years product until you have tried it...

NBA Live 10 may not have been the greatest but it was solid enough and had promise. I also played 2k10 a lot more but won't deny it.

Your 'so bad last year' comment means all your credibility is out the window for mine.

[cain141]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

NBA Live 10 may not have been the greatest but it was solid enough and had promise. I also played 2k10 a lot more but won't deny it.

Your 'so bad last year' comment means all your credibility is out the window for mine.

That's fine. I'm not going to please every one. But that's a tad ignorant on your part to take one line of text out of about 500 I have written out of context like that. Read the other 499 that qualify that statement vs just saying "your opinion is bogus". You're entitled to disagree with me but at least do it rationally. I haven't enjoyed most of the NBA games out there in recent years, as I think they all have a long way to go to catch up with say NHL or FIFA in terms of simulating the sport accurately in a fun way.

I don't think any of the basketball games recently have lived up to the sports full potential. If you actually read the article vs just the title, you'll see I called it a good game. And by the standard of it's compitition it is a good game...

However, by the standard of what the potential is out there for basketball games imo they have not been good. There is a ton of room for improvement.

EVERYONE ELSE not named reanimator: Can't a guy have an opinion around here, without all these newcomers who just signed up, jumping all over my back..Half you guys don't even read the entire posts, you just read the first sentence, disagree with what you read and then rush into some argumentative reply. Chill out and read the whole post. I got 2 guys jumping on me about assuming the game is arcade because of the "controls" when I didn't even mention a word about controls in my post. Chill out people.

Haha I learned a long time ago that 90% of the people talking about something I write on a forum won't even read what they are discussing. And if they do their goal is to find one flaw (normally in an opinion, which can't technically be wrong as its an opinion) in what ever I say. You get used to it after a while.




If anyone has any questions about the game/article still feel free to email or hit me up on AIM (c41n141), but I probably won't be back on this thread for a while. Gotta get to work writing actual articles...

[donkey33]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

Nah, I read them but actually to prefer to single out that one line. Maybe because 'so bad last year' is a strong opinion. It's a definitive statement.

I don't disagree with anything you said. NBA video games have no where lived up to their potential but I take your one line as risking your credibility because Live 10 was far from such a bad game and to call it that kind of gives the impression you don't know what you're talking about.

[RoyalBoyle78]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

the statement made in the Title is a bit overboard, lets play the retail version to make this statement.

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Elite Hands on Preview: "Most Improved Sports Game of this Generation"

No worries man, I totally respect your opinion. That's part of why I asked about the arcade/sim terminology and what is means to everyone.

I think your point about game speed being a factor is an interesting one. It definitely makes sense, especially if you think about other genres like racing games for example.

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to throw out an observation I've made and see what people think.

I think we can all agree that a game like NBA Street or NBA Jam are arcade basketball games. They bend the rules of the game and bend the rules of physics to deliver a more over the top experience. And as you pointed out, games like these tend to have a high pace as well.

For me, Elite and Live are both basketball sim games. But they approach the sim experience from very different places.

I see them living on a spectrum.

On the left hand side you've got yourself in real life playing as a basketball player in the NBA.

On the far right you've got yourself watching an NBA game on TV.

If you were to write a basketball simulation, you could start on either end of that spectrum.

Do you recreate the outcomes you see on television using statistics and probabilities, and then present those outcomes by playing back appropriate animations that were captured in a mocap studio?

Or do you try and recreate the physics of everything involved in the simulation to the most tiny detail?

As you move from pure simulation to a video game, you move from either the left or the right towards a middle ground.

Coming from the right hand side, you start to allow the user to interact with the simulation by calling the plays, making the substitutions, maybe telling players when to perform certain actions. The players are still themselves, performing the actions as they see fit, but they are taking direction from the user.

Coming from the left hand side, they allow the user to manipulate the physical objects in the simulation. Moving the legs and arms like a marionette. You have the physical capabilities of the person you are controlling, but you have complete control over what happens.

Obviously neither of these examples exist in real life, but I think they help paint a picture of the spectrum I see the games lying on. I think both games are sim games, what what they are simulating and how they simulate it are different.

You can probably guess that in my opinion, Live is more to the right on that spectrum, and Elite is more to the left on the spectrum.

Neither game is arcade, and neither game is "more sim" than the other.

It's just that their priorities and how they decide to simulate the world of basketball is different.

This year we're focusing more on controls and simulating the physics of the world. That's what makes Elite unique and that much more different from Live.

So when you watch videos, you may think Live "looks more realistic", but don't be fooled by the beauty of a perfectly mocapped two player animation.

There's a lot more going on under the hood when you're simulating the physics, and I'd personally take a dynamic physically simulated game with great controls but a few visual warts, over a picture perfect two player animation based game that has less responsive controls and fewer outcomes.

But this is all just my personal take on things.

I'd love to hear what others think.

Thanks for replying. What you said makes sense and I agree for the most part. Live has def been geared more towards a sim style, especially on the next gen level. There was a time however (not that long ago) when live was just a run and gun dunk fest...There's been a change over the past few years and I'm happy that it's getting in the right direction. I'm really hoping for a solid Elite this year.