Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

[carnalnirvana]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Give Durant even more credit since he was in position DIRECTLY in Lebron's path. Lebron had NO angle, NO space, nothing, so that should have been nothing but a charge with both these guys hitting the deck or a foul on Durant. See thats the problem with games today, the devs trying to cater to people who want superstars to perform above the laws of physics. The LAST thing that should have happened was Lebron going through Durant and actually finishing the move. Not when Durant had the absolute best position he could have.

they should have both been on the hardwood or an immediate foul,

[Pokes404]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I posted a similar question in the physics thread, but this question probably fits better in this thread.

Has anything been done to improve dunking logic by the CPU and the human controlled player? I've seen too many instances in past games where guys are trying 360 windmills when there's two or three defenders in their way. Not only do these fancy dunks give the defense a chance to make a block, but it looks very unrealistic. No matter how good of a dunker a guy is, he's not going to be trying to pull off showboat dunks in the middle of a crowd.

Is there any way to separate dunks into different categories? Maybe have "traffic dunks" and "open floor dunks?" This way the showboat dunks could be classified as "open floor dunks" and could only be triggered if 1) the players dunk rating is high enough 2) he has a clear path to the hoop and 3) there are no defenders within a certain distance behind or to the side of him. Traffic dunks would occur more frequently and would be the kind of dunks you typically see in a real game. It would make things look more realistic, and it would much more satisfying when you did pull off a fancy, "open floor dunk."

[Winson~~]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Two questions:

1) Will the CPU use the most powerful stopper (e.g. Battier) to matchup with the opponent's key player (e.g. Kobe Bryant)? Because the CPU will only use SF to check opponent's SF, SG to check opponent's SG now.

2) Will the CPU recognize the weak point of the opponent's team and attack the weak point frequently? (e.g. Lakers play more in the paint area when facing up Warriors)

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

stepsix - Question, is there logic written regarding the CPU acknowledging when a successful play(meaning they scored) occurs? And do they try to repeat the successful plays until they don't score?

This would bring a CPU dynamic that feels more human. It also forces the user to adjust or else the play will keep happening until they can't score with it anymore.

I know human players always run their favorite plays over and over. Aside from the CPU Adjusting to the plays by double teaming, can the CPU assign different match ups or change their man to man to zone if I'm making more inside shots than outside shots?

We are not tracking successful plays (but that is a good idea). We rely predominantly on Synergy to get the plays running for the right guys, but to the inverse of what you said it would also be good to know if a guy who is supposed to be hot is not scoring and change the AI up accordingly.

CPU will change their defense up from man to zone, but it doesn't switch matchups from a strategic level. It will switch in transition and on screens, but that doesn't always result in favourable matchups

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Two questions:

1) Will the CPU use the most powerful stopper (e.g. Battier) to matchup with the opponent's key player (e.g. Kobe Bryant)? Because the CPU will only use SF to check opponent's SF, SG to check opponent's SG now.

2) Will the CPU recognize the weak point of the opponent's team and attack the weak point frequently? (e.g. Lakers play more in the paint area when facing up Warriors)

Same answer I gave to MJ applies to your first question...not currently but it's a great idea and I'll add it to my personal list.

There are a number of aspects in which the cpu recognizes mismatches, both on offense and defense, but it is an area I'd like to expand on.

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I posted a similar question in the physics thread, but this question probably fits better in this thread.

Has anything been done to improve dunking logic by the CPU and the human controlled player? I've seen too many instances in past games where guys are trying 360 windmills when there's two or three defenders in their way. Not only do these fancy dunks give the defense a chance to make a block, but it looks very unrealistic. No matter how good of a dunker a guy is, he's not going to be trying to pull off showboat dunks in the middle of a crowd.

Is there any way to separate dunks into different categories? Maybe have "traffic dunks" and "open floor dunks?" This way the showboat dunks could be classified as "open floor dunks" and could only be triggered if 1) the players dunk rating is high enough 2) he has a clear path to the hoop and 3) there are no defenders within a certain distance behind or to the side of him. Traffic dunks would occur more frequently and would be the kind of dunks you typically see in a real game. It would make things look more realistic, and it would much more satisfying when you did pull off a fancy, "open floor dunk."

Yep - we make the distinction and flag certain dunks as in traffic and others as open lane.

[BiggD]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Yea but, the still shouldnt be doing a euro step in one place and I understand what you're saying but Lebron is very strong and durant is tall but he's 20 pounds skinner than bron and bron is somewhat more agressive but they're both good, I just wish that mishappening to be removed.

I think what we really wanna see there is better collison detection, plus a charge or blocking foul

[rEAnimator]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I think what we really wanna see there is better collison detection, plus a charge or blocking foul

I know the video clip you're talking about, and it's on my list of things to fix.

The pro hops and euro steps are currently only half using the physics system, which is why you see the ugly and unrealistic result in the video.

By the time we ship we'll have addressed it one way or another.

What you describe with the charge/block is one option, but there are other options that I'd like to explore as well.

[michaeljordanjr]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Same answer I gave to MJ applies to your first question...not currently but it's a great idea and I'll add it to my personal list.

There are a number of aspects in which the cpu recognizes mismatches, both on offense and defense, but it is an area I'd like to expand on.

Ah excellent. I'm assuming a situation when a point guard switches through a screen onto a center and my A.I. teammates recognize that and help the point guard, correct?

Also, is there an independent from synergy logic regarding taking shots when the A.I. is wide open? Both games last year had the classic A.I. frustration when they don't take blatant wide open shots.

[MrMars]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

One of my biggest problems with NHL 10 is how the game engine represents an increase in difficulty. Primarily, boosting CPU players individual abilities ie. greater acceleration, greater shot accuracy,faster response tactically (Sticklift, then take off with the puck), etc... Anyway, what makes this even more frustrating is the Human players deteriorating individual skills in relation to increasing the difficulty level.

Quite Frankly, it feels like they superfy the CPU players, while dumbifying the Human players in order to create an artificial competitive environment. Which, by the way, drove me to the point of removing the game from my PS3 and gently placing it back in its case, then placing the case on the floor and stomping on it twice, then placing the game back in the drawer where it is usually kept. No, I don't know whether it is still functional. Anyway, I digress.

The point is this; How do you intend to differentiate the differences in difficulty levels? I for one would rather see more or less basketball IQ related to difficulty. As well as better execution of Picks, passes, plays and maybe slightly - shot percentages. I will be very disappointed if all you do to represent the difference in difficulty is boost cpu individual attributes while taking away from Human player individual attributes.

Bottom Line, the difficulty levels should reflect how well the CPU plays basketball. It should have nothing to do with the individual ratings and/or boosting of the cpu players attributes.


MrMars

[carnalnirvana]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

^^ and that problem i know is solved when players are rated accurately to their role in the offense and abilities....

now i know the cpu will make more contested shots i can live with that but its not as rediculous as other sport titles....

i dont think live has this issue IMO but then again i use edited rosters.

[Hulkules]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

One of my biggest problems with NHL 10 is how the game engine represents an increase in difficulty. Primarily, boosting CPU players individual abilities ie. greater acceleration, greater shot accuracy,faster response tactically (Sticklift, then take off with the puck), etc... Anyway, what makes this even more frustrating is the Human players deteriorating individual skills in relation to increasing the difficulty level.

Quite Frankly, it feels like they superfy the CPU players, while dumbifying the Human players in order to create an artificial competitive environment. Which, by the way, drove me to the point of removing the game from my PS3 and gently placing it back in its case, then placing the case on the floor and stomping on it twice, then placing the game back in the drawer where it is usually kept. No, I don't know whether it is still functional. Anyway, I digress.

The point is this; How do you intend to differentiate the differences in difficulty levels? I for one would rather see more or less basketball IQ related to difficulty. As well as better execution of Picks, passes, plays and maybe slightly - shot percentages. I will be very disappointed if all you do to represent the difference in difficulty is boost cpu individual attributes while taking away from Human player individual attributes.

Bottom Line, the difficulty levels should reflect how well the CPU plays basketball. It should have nothing to do with the individual ratings and/or boosting of the cpu players attributes.


MrMars

That is a great post.. Please Reanimator and Stepsix look into this. I got sick to death of Marvin Williams playing like Jordan and the CPU being able to hit shots that I would not have a chance in hell to make.

[loadleft]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

One of my biggest problems with NHL 10 is how the game engine represents an increase in difficulty. Primarily, boosting CPU players individual abilities ie. greater acceleration, greater shot accuracy,faster response tactically (Sticklift, then take off with the puck), etc... Anyway, what makes this even more frustrating is the Human players deteriorating individual skills in relation to increasing the difficulty level.

Quite Frankly, it feels like they superfy the CPU players, while dumbifying the Human players in order to create an artificial competitive environment. Which, by the way, drove me to the point of removing the game from my PS3 and gently placing it back in its case, then placing the case on the floor and stomping on it twice, then placing the game back in the drawer where it is usually kept. No, I don't know whether it is still functional. Anyway, I digress.

The point is this; How do you intend to differentiate the differences in difficulty levels? I for one would rather see more or less basketball IQ related to difficulty. As well as better execution of Picks, passes, plays and maybe slightly - shot percentages. I will be very disappointed if all you do to represent the difference in difficulty is boost cpu individual attributes while taking away from Human player individual attributes.

Bottom Line, the difficulty levels should reflect how well the CPU plays basketball. It should have nothing to do with the individual ratings and/or boosting of the cpu players attributes.


MrMars

In my opinion this is one of Live 10's biggest problems! In a lot of instances the CPU acts as if the defense is not even present. Instead of actually making the CPU smarter, as was claimed last year, the CPU becomes more "super". Since Elite is built on the Live 10 platform I feel there is a good chance it will be the same. I tried on several occasions to ask the devs the same questions you asked but they're never answered. One of the biggest problems IMO is they cut down the margin for error way too far for user defense but don't increase the CPU's IQ realistically.

With the margin of error for what's considered "properly positioned on D" cut way down you see the CPU driving right into the defensive presence. Also they don't make the CPU react to a situation like the user having trouble defending the pick and roll, by the CPU doing more pick-n-rolls, instead the CPU just gains the ability to shoot in your face, or the CPU centers out run user PGs on fast breaks! I really hope they take a serious look at game play, as this is where Live has struggled the most, not controls. Don't get me wrong, I am optimistic about the controls but the bigger problem is gameplay/tendencies, IMO.

I wish Elite would revolutionize gameplay by being the first to not boost the CPU's abilities on more difficult levels but instead increase it's use of fundamentals, increase CPU IQ and have the CPU recognize user tendencies and counter them. That would make the games feel like you're playing against someone (a human) that's actually coaching/playing against you instead of just a set of predefined challenges that if you pass them you win.

[Hulkules]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Do they have the engine/tools to do this though? If so how come it hasnt implemented. I would love to play against a smarter CPU to challenge me on higher difficulties than have them make shots consistently in my face. I once had Gortat hit a game winner on me from 20 feet. If I attempted that there is no way in hell that would be going in.

[loadleft]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Do they have the engine/tools to do this though? If so how come it hasnt implemented. I would love to play against a smarter CPU to challenge me on higher difficulties than have them make shots consistently in my face. I once had Gortat hit a game winner on me from 20 feet. If I attempted that there is no way in hell that would be going in.

I have no idea if they have the ability to do things like that but I do remember even Tecmo Bowl back in the day recognized the fact that I like to sweep to the outside, LOL! I guess it's wishful thinking on my part but I wish they'd put as much time in these sorts of things as they do the latest and greatest features.

Sorry for the derailment.