A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

[rEAnimator]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I never said the game has gone backwards in any capacity. I'm saying that I PERSONALLY WILL NOT buy a game that has the promise of next year. In game injuries may not sound as bad to some of you... but when it's been "Oh, we ran out of time, but it'll be there next year." and "Oh, the animations are implemented and are in the game, but we wanted to get them accurately represented so they were omitted for this game..." And my favorite is this years "We didn't have time to put them in, and frankly, I'm surprised that people are so upset that they aren't in... " I mean we have new modes, that should make up for the fact that key elements of basketball are missing, right? WRONG.

But when I wait and wait and wait for that 3 year product to come to fruition for 5-6 years, and it never makes it to my console, then I have a major problem. Am I wrong to expect to get the game that we've been led to believe would be here by now?

And Wang leaves the team, and the team makes the statement that they're going a different direction? How is that building on what's there? It's apparent that by "going a different direction", it's not just a "build upon Live 10" deal. Come on canes.

And showing me that we have new modes doesn't do anything for me. I could care less about new modes, as long as a great basketball game is played on the floor, represented in every facet of the game.

Even watching videos, the game looks unbearable. Doesn't even look like Live 10. It's a different game, with a different feel. If that's what makes people happy, then more power to them. Like I said, I wish them the best of luck with the title, but in order to get me, and from the looks of it, several of the hardcore bball guys back on board, then they have a lot of work to do.

Not PR spinning stuff. Not scrapping ideas and going different directions, but sticking with a plan, and fulfilling that plan. I'm still waiting for NBA Live 11... the title that should have been. Live 10 with a few tweaks, animation tweaks, in game injuries. A SOLID basketball title, that I don't have to wait 3 years to have all of the things that should be in a bball title.

I could care less about the fluff and filler, new modes. Truth be told, I have spent probably a total of 15-20 hrs on MyPlayer and the likes. It's just not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that hardcore basketball sim that represents accurately what I'm seeing on tv.

And they were almost there.

To be fair, I never said we'd add injuries next year. I said it is something we'd consider.

I don't want that one coming back to bite me if we don't end up doing it.

[WTF]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I'm as sim as most of you are, but I'm also an avid gamer and have been for over 20 years. NBA Jam is awesome. LOL!

Back on topic though, I'm just as disappointed with the animations and other aspects of the game as all of you are, too, if you couldn't tell by my flaws videos that I've been posting. I'm hoping these videos, as well as the feedback posted on forums, will give them insight on what we really want from here going forward. Because of the event we attended and the ideas that were tossed around by the developers and their vision, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt regarding where this game is now and where it will be next year and the following year. With that being said, if they decide to scrap this idea and the same crew isn't working on the title next year, it will be the last straw for me.

I understand that you have more invested in this title because you were involved with the title.

With the 2nd part of the quote that I bolded, therein lies my problem. I've been there, time and time again to "stick with the idea and let them have their time to make the game we want". And they've continuously pulled the plug, new crew, new direction.

You can't tell me that the animations of last year didn't look better than what we're getting this year. A regression in animations, still no in game injuries, but hey, we've got a new control scheme and a few new modes...

And with that, I'm done.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Where did this whole "incomplete game" meme come from? The only thing lacking in this game (assuming that the gameplay will be what they say it is) is animations. They are adding modes to the live 10 feature set. If all of this vitriol is due to no in game injuries I just don't understand it. While they are important, I would rather they not be in than to not be done right. It's like backbreaker. They want to do injuries in a different way, so they elected to keep them out of the first game. I can understand that. Tossing in random injuries just for the sake of having them is worse to me than not having them at all.

If it's not just the injuries, then again I'm not sure where this all makes sense. They aren't rebooting the series from a feature standpoint, and what happens if you prefer the new gameplay? Are you still mad?

As I believe someone here has said already the problem starts with the fact that this title doesn't look like basketball. The basketball experience is being stripped away from Live 10 to sacrifice for Elite 11 in the name of total control. Maybe it's just me not fully understanding how this thing will work. From what I've read and heard basketball games have been a dice roll when you shoot the ball, Elite gives 'total control' of scoring to the user. There was a quote about not being mad if someone makes a shot from half court cause you know it was skill. My problem is if scoring and other aspects of the game is based on the users skills what's to stop Chris Duhon from being a better shooter than Kobe Bryant? If you know how to time and release your shot, what's to stop you from making every shot you take? What's to stop a guy from having handles like AI if this whole system is based on the users skills with the sticks? What seperates the Lakers from the Wolves in this game?

The problem people have is this game currently isn't looking like basketball and we're being asked to buy it this year on the merits that it's going to look more like basketball next year and the year after that and as WTF has pointed out, EA has yet to actually deliever on the promise of things being better 'next year.'

It's the idea that there is absolutely nothing that says they're going to stick with this three year plan other than them saying they are. NBA Live sold poorly last year with it's best title in years. Live, a series that had been around for over a decade, a title that had name value, a title that had nostalgia on it's side because it was THE basketball title back in the day, it had Madden status in mainstream America before 2K came along and even at points in the 2K era. That title sold poorly and because of a metacritic score and bad sales it was scrapped for this new direction. Now, a name change and the biggest feature they're touting is awesome controls (which they already had in last year's game) is supposed to spike sales against Michael Jordan and a juggernaut of improvements to the other game? So I fall for the hype and the buzzwords again, buy the game and the casual crowd is walking right past Elite to the game with Jordan on the box, how long before the suits pull the plug on the new direction? How long before Elite isn't worthy enough to be improved upon because the numbers don't add up? NCAA was a pretty good title too last year if not for the bugs that needed to be fixed but sales numbers didn't warrant a three year plan for that one.

Like WTF I won't try to discourage anyone from buying the game or trying the demo for themselves, I just want to share my thoughts and opinions on this topic.

[HoosierDaddy]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I understand that you have more invested in this title because you were involved with the title.

With the 2nd part of the quote that I bolded, therein lies my problem. I've been there, time and time again to "stick with the idea and let them have their time to make the game we want". And they've continuously pulled the plug, new crew, new direction.

You can't tell me that the animations of last year didn't look better than what we're getting this year. A regression in animations, still no in game injuries, but hey, we've got a new control scheme and a few new modes...

And with that, I'm done.

In-game injuries don't bother me, honestly. Yes, it adds to the realism, the animations and signature stuff bother me more though. I hope the devs hear me!

[WTF]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

To be fair, I never said we'd add injuries next year. I said it is something we'd consider.

I don't want that one coming back to bite me if we don't end up doing it.

Sorry rEAnimator, I'm just used to hearing, oh it's in there, just didn't have time to implement it, or we didn't have time, not there this year. Thanks for chiming in to clear that up.

Please don't look at this as bashing, because that's not the intent of this post. I've been here since basically inception of these forums, in search of the same thing, year after year.

I've been rebooted, and redirected with this series so many times, with the promise of a good title in the near future. I want you all to realize that this is the reason for losing customers. Last years title was very promising, and I was excited about it. This title didn't need a reboot, nor a redirection. It needed to be finished.

This is why the metacritic scores are 90, or the sales figures aren't there. It's always a rebuild since "next gen" consoles hit. You haven't stuck with a foundation since the days of xbox and PS2. And those titles were fun. Live 04, Live 05, pure fun. Had all of the elements that we could expect from a bball title, and had been built upon for a while.

Again, if you have passed this along to anyone, look at it from constructive criticism viewpoint.

[fatleg3]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

This is only speculation on my end and what I think is good idea from the marketing at EA. While we were there, NBA Jam was only advertised as being on the Wii. I'm not sure if they had this idea to package Jam with Elite all along, but we asked multiple times if it would ever be available on 360/PS3, and the vibe I got was possibly in the future AFTER it was released on Wii. Like later next year. I'm not sure if they decided to do this because of the feedback Elite has gotten or if they just wanted to attract people to buy Elite and give it a shot based on it's new vision. Either way, paying $60 and getting 2 games is a pretty good deal. Jam alone is worth at least a $30 purchase, so Elite for $30 is a steal, IMHO.

I still stand by what I said in my blog and in previous posts... once you actually play Elite and FEEL the game, you'll really appreciate the type of control and satisfaction you get by your skills on the sticks. Then, and only then, will you see where EA is going with this title. I preach consistency though, I urge EA and its developers to stay on board with this title and not jump ship. If I were a developer, I'd make it a mission to ride this out and show us gamers how much they really care about putting this game back on top.

I am also not interested in playing nba jam but since it comes along with elite i have no problem with it. there are two ways of looking at it. 1. Like you said both are 30 bucks or 2. you get nba jam for free. Either way you are getting two games for the price of one.

Of coures ea is trying to sell more copies because they are a business first but once again you are still paying the same 60 bucks you have always paid so its not if they have raised the price. so for the sim players you can just give it to your little cousin or something and not even think about it

It should not offended or bother anyone on here bout them doing that because i dont think anyone in this form is going to based there decision of buying the game or not off that deal

[jr2424]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

To be fair, I never said we'd add injuries next year. I said it is something we'd consider.

I don't want that one coming back to bite me if we don't end up doing it.

I understand this statement to make sure no one can throw it back at you. But I think this might anger the community also. When I see the NHL series add all these little nuances like breaking sticks this year and board play last year (the things hardcore fans love) but something like in-game injuries (a must for any sports game) is something EA is considering, it just won't fly here. I know these decisions are not entirely in your hands rEAnimator, and it really isn't fair that you have to defend a decision that is probably made by higher ups (I know how that is at where I work too), but it just leads to more frustration here that something as basic as in-game injuries isn't a priority to a game that is striving to be sim.

And the only reason I brought up the NHL series is the Littman common denominator. I've said time and time again, I wish I were a bigger hockey fan because that game is just awesome. I want that so much for basketball.

[rEAnimator]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Sorry rEAnimator, I'm just used to hearing, oh it's in there, just didn't have time to implement it, or we didn't have time, not there this year. Thanks for chiming in to clear that up.

Please don't look at this as bashing, because that's not the intent of this post. I've been here since basically inception of these forums, in search of the same thing, year after year.

I've been rebooted, and redirected with this series so many times, with the promise of a good title in the near future. I want you all to realize that this is the reason for losing customers. Last years title was very promising, and I was excited about it. This title didn't need a reboot, nor a redirection. It needed to be finished.

This is why the metacritic scores are 90, or the sales figures aren't there. It's always a rebuild since "next gen" consoles hit. You haven't stuck with a foundation since the days of xbox and PS2. And those titles were fun. Live 04, Live 05, pure fun. Had all of the elements that we could expect from a bball title, and had been built upon for a while.

Again, if you have passed this along to anyone, look at it from constructive criticism viewpoint.

No worries man, I hear your frustration.

I think guys have been burned many times in the past, and there's a lot of built up frustration that's coming out right now.

I get it, I think it's something that needs to be said and EA as a company deserves to hear it.

I'm pulling out the constructive criticism parts and will be bringing them to the table when we start planning for next year.

I'll still be here when you guys have gotten everything off your chest about how you've been let down in the past, and hopefully once the demo and release have come and gone we can get back to the kind of discussions we all enjoy.

[coolcras7]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

To be fair, I never said we'd add injuries next year. I said it is something we'd consider.

I don't want that one coming back to bite me if we don't end up doing it.

I think that is the problem should it not be your goal to create the most authentic NBA basketball game every year to say that certain aspects may not be in the game this year and maybe next just says to the audience that you are getting an unfinished product, the problem with this years game is IMO it is not a NBA basketball game but just a basketball game which could be fun for some but most people when they see the NBA title are expecting a little more than what Elite can offer this year.

[rEAnimator]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I understand this statement to make sure no one can throw it back at you. But I think this might anger the community also. When I see the NHL series add all these little nuances like breaking sticks this year and board play last year (the things hardcore fans love) but something like in-game injuries (a must for any sports game) is something EA is considering, it just won't fly here. I know these decisions are not entirely in your hands rEAnimator, and it really isn't fair that you have to defend a decision that is probably made by higher ups (I know how that is at where I work too), but it just leads to more frustration here that something as basic as in-game injuries isn't a priority to a game that is striving to be sim.

And the only reason I brought up the NHL series is the Littman common denominator. I've said time and time again, I wish I were a bigger hockey fan because that game is just awesome. I want that so much for basketball.

And that's what he's trying to do. I think NHL won sports game of the year in the first year of its 3 year plan, if I remember correctly.

Give this game a shot, and I think you'll like it.

There are definitely things that the higher ups decide, but I would never have prioritized in game injuries either given the scope of what we were trying to do. There just wasn't enough time and the benefit wasn't worth it to me.

Like I said previously, I'd rather do them properly than do a half assed job just to have them.

Mike Wang's name was brought up in a previous thread. He didn't add them to last year's game. Were you guys riding him this hard about it then?

Just curious, not trying to start anything...

[mrprice33]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

And that's what he's trying to do. I think NHL won sports game of the year in the first year of its 3 year plan, if I remember correctly.

Give this game a shot, and I think you'll like it.

There are definitely things that the higher ups decide, but I would never have prioritized in game injuries either given the scope of what we were trying to do. There just wasn't enough time and the benefit wasn't worth it to me.

Like I said previously, I'd rather do them properly than do a half assed job just to have them.

Mike Wang's name was brought up in a previous thread. He didn't add them to last year's game. Were you guys riding him this hard about it then?

Just curious, not trying to start anything...

Yeah it was a pretty big issue last year lol.

I think if people look at the design philosophy of this team, they'll see why injuries aren't in the game. If everything is supposed to be based on the user's input, injuries have to be dynamic, user-driven occurrence, not something that just happens based on injury ratings (although those should come into play). Considering that is something that is pretty much alien to sports games, I can forgive it taking some time to implement correctly.

I just really hope this team gets a chance to do what they want to do with this series. The potential of this design change is very exciting to me, and it would suck to shift gears on a potentially game changing stance on sports gaming.

[coolcras7]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

And that's what he's trying to do. I think NHL won sports game of the year in the first year of its 3 year plan, if I remember correctly.

Give this game a shot, and I think you'll like it.

There are definitely things that the higher ups decide, but I would never have prioritized in game injuries either given the scope of what we were trying to do. There just wasn't enough time and the benefit wasn't worth it to me.

Like I said previously, I'd rather do them properly than do a half assed job just to have them.

Mike Wang's name was brought up in a previous thread. He didn't add them to last year's game. Were you guys riding him this hard about it then?

Just curious, not trying to start anything...

People were annoyed but they understood and they respected what he was trying to do and trusted his vision for the series and it's future,he proved alot with live 10, people just don't trust Elite yet and they fear that this one shot and if sale don't improve they will go through this all over again, the only way for Elite to win over the audience is show them that there is an actually vision that they will stick with that will produce a great NBA game.

[rEAnimator]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Yeah it was a pretty big issue last year lol.

I think if people look at the design philosophy of this team, they'll see why injuries aren't in the game. If everything is supposed to be based on the user's input, injuries have to be dynamic, user-driven occurrence, not something that just happens based on injury ratings (although those should come into play). Considering that is something that is pretty much alien to sports games, I can forgive it taking some time to implement correctly.

I just really hope this team gets a chance to do what they want to do with this series. The potential of this design change is very exciting to me, and it would suck to shift gears on a potentially game changing stance on sports gaming.

Yeah, that's definitely one aspect of it. I'm thinking things like taking charge on a dunk attempt where the dunker is bigger than you could cause an injury. Stuff like that.

But when I say do it right, I mean commentary support for it, stoppage of play while the player is escorted off the court.

Having the option to play through the injury and have then be very apparent in the way the player plays.

I don't want to just add something where randomly you just lose of of your players. That would suck and I would feel cheated if it happend that way to me.

[WTF]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

As far as Mike goes, we go way back when it comes to input from game to game. Going all the way back directly to Inside Drive 2002... each game he was involved in, I wrote a prioritized list on what I was looking for, likes and dislikes of each title.

Its funny because each year, most of the time we were seeing eye to eye on what needed to be done, and we'd discuss my list, and why each was more of a priority than the other.

Last year, I looked more forward to NBA Live more than the other game. I still have a couple of PM's between myself and a couple of posters here saying that from the look of the game, it was a perfect mix with shades of Inside Drive gameplay looking through. The animations weren't perfect, but neither were Inside Drives, but it's still heralded as probably the best basketball experience by us sim heads. I saw in the early videos a guy who looked "hobbled", limping up the court, and the announcers even made note of it saying that he was hobbled, we'll see how it plays out, or something to that effect.

After I got the game in my hands, and seeing there were no real injuries, I was not happy about it. My time with the game dropped quick after that. I had no real incentive to play, knowing that it'd be the same players, no injuries, no real adjustments. Then we asked about it, and was told that they were in there, but due to the fact that they weren't implemented correctly, they'd be in next year. That was bad... but they were said to have been in this year. Okay, that was year 2 of a 3 year plan, now year 3, they should be here, and the title should within reason be what we all expected. But once again, it's not.

That's what I'm upset about. The fact that once again, not only the injury part, but year 3 of 3 never has came. Instead there's a "brand new plan" in a new direction.

Oh, and this thread has 4 5 star ratings, and 1 1 star rating... lol. Seriously? Someone's upset.

[rEAnimator]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

People were annoyed but they understood and they respected what he was trying to do and trusted his vision for the series and it's future,he proved alot with live 10, people just don't trust Elite yet and they fear that this one shot and f sale don't improve they will go through this all over again, the only way for Elite to win over the audience is show them that there is an actually vision that they will stick with that will produce a great NBA game.

Thanks.

Hopefully we can earn the same level of trust at some point.