NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Microsoft don't limit the number of patches.

Maybe they dont limit them but I'm sure that at least after one patch they make you pay for them.

[StankonYa]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

So are you upset about the way it was marketed, or about the game itself?

You seem more upset about the marketing, which I can kind of understand, although I was extremely open about what we were delivering and never claimed anything like backbreaker.

But let's get to the heart of the problem in the game itself.

And thanks for helping out.

Okay i've put a good chunk of time into this demo and here is a few things to think about.
1. Team defense, there is none. If I don't click on to the guy who has the best chance at stopping penetration, he'll just let him by.

2.If the animations you do have........ were smoother, we could get into the flow of the game a-lot easier. p.s please take out the little jogging cut scene were the players look as if they're sticking thier buts out.

3. Total control is a little too much at times on offense because you almost have to always be moving the sticks so the cpu don't poke the ball away with supreme precision.
Here is where it would be nice to add a a (canned) size up dribble we can branch out of to combat this.

Overall though, like someone said early on in the thread..........people here was looking for a enhanced nba live 10 and got something very, very different and quite frankly.....people feelings are hurt.

[Fngb3]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

The question wasn't directed towards me but I'd like to chime in. RTP isn't something new, it's just a buzzword used to describe the physics system they've implemented in this year's Live.

2K had been using physics for several years...they just didn't throw everything but the kitchen sink into advertising it as the next big thing.

No no haha I know pretty much all virtual environments in which virtual objects interact have physics engines going. The difference in EAs engine was that it is allegedly running constantly for each player on the floor.
The 2 player animations that people dislike about 2K are not examples of real time physics in action. They may have had physics engines involved in the creation of the animation but in the game at any particular time there are not calculations of physics for that animation; the calculations and outcomes have already been done.

[Fngb3]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

3. Total control is a little too much at times on offense because you almost have to always be moving the sticks so the cpu don't poke the ball away with supreme precision.
Here is where it would be nice to add a a (canned) size up dribble we can branch out of to combat this.

I really don't have a problem with needing to be vigilent in guarding the basketball. I think this is exactly the kind of thing we take for granted with 2K. There's nothing wrong with asking the player to make sure the ball stays out of reach of the defender. As you just said, when you relax the ball gets poked away.
I do agree that it can be tiresome to have to dribble between your legs constantly, though. Maybe instead there can be a button that simply switches you into a guarded position with your body and non-dribbling hand out and between the ball and the defender. It can be the same button as post up but be context sensitive to the perimeter.

I know we can post up anywhere on the floor and thats a good thing but I don't know maybe while out on the perimeter a tap puts you into/out of a guarded position (not all moves should be available to you while you're focusing on guarding the ball afterall), but Holding it down while on the perimeter puts you into the post up.

I think it's correct as is to just tap the button when near the paint to post up, and that having to hold it that often could be annoying. But out on the perimeter where you will post up less often, having to hold it down wouldn't be so bad.

[The Truth 101]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

No no haha I know pretty much all virtual environments in which virtual objects interact have physics engines going. The difference in EAs engine was that it is allegedly running constantly for each player on the floor.
The 2 player animations that people dislike about 2K are not examples of real time physics in action. They may have had physics engines involved in the creation of the animation but in the game at any particular time there are not calculations of physics for that animation; the calculations and outcomes have already been done.

This is so true.

[Wiffyjustus]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Applause to your for getting us back on track here.
Totally disagree with you.

What hand is dribbling the ball is the most fundamental control I want to have. I may want to turn my guy left towards the basket, without having him switch hands.

If I'm on the right wing and get passed, or level with my defender, and move the left stick up and left towards the hoop, and my defender is on my left hip, I don't want the ball in my left hand. I want it in my right. Now, this could be context sensitive, which it probably is in 2K, but I'm totally down with the responsability of putting the ball in the safest place (in my players right hand, with his body between the defender and the ball). If I'm playing against someone too lazy to do that, they should pay. This is exactly the kind of thing I like about the controls.

I understand your point. Fair enough. That's not what I want though.

I want a game where someone with superior basketball knowledge will generally beat a 12yo kid who plays games 24/7 and is a dynamo on the sticks.

Yes, I admit having the ball in the right hand at the right time is important bball knowledge. I am looking bigger picture I suppose... finding the open shooter, knowing when to run a fast break or when to slow it down, running a play and reacting to what the defense gives you.

With all this micro control I just see myself getting so frustrated with the game just trying to bring the ball up the court, let alone running a play.

I admit I am in the minority as 2K is very popular yet I find the controls overly complex. I guess I don't represent the majority of the market. Sad times for me.

[SomeGuyNamedJR]

The comment that comes to mind is "why is the head of NBA Elite, asking us what basketball is?" They failed to listen to the community on what we wanted, on where we wanted to see improvements in the game, they failed to release videos so we could provide timely feedback.

If developers are saying "I don't get it" or "we don't see whats wrong with the game" then they never will. reAnimator, here is some advice....hire Da Czar as a consultant IF NBA Elite doesn't get canceled (which I'm sure it probably will).

[Fngb3]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

I have another question somewhat similar to the specifics of passing like I asked earlier. And I got a very helpful response then.

With shooting, I know the width of allowable error for a shot decreases the further you are from the basket. I also know the power and window in which you need to release the shot decreases as well.

Based on watching the demo I would like to know if there are other factors that affect these 'windows.' I know a blocked shot can happen any time the defender is in position to get one and times their jump properly, but other than that, does the presence of a defender decrease these windows?

I mean, the closer the proximity of a defender, the smaller those windows for error should be. That seems something that is supremely manageable with the current mechanics, no? Heck, maybe it's already in there and I'm not seeing/feeling it. But I feel like if I get a shot off, and my defender doesn't block me, it's as though the defender isn't there at all.

That right there seems like the kind of thing that can detract from the team-ness of the experience. If I feel as long as my shot isn't blocked that I might as well be alone in the practice gym. Of course those shots go in all the time. But that's not how it works. Am I over explaining at this point? Is this already part of the game anyway? If it is, I think the effect of a nearby defender/well contested shot needs to have a greater negative influence on the paramters of a succesful shot.

[drss]

No surprises in this roundtable: extreme hate and bias.

When someone whines about RT/R2 for passing, I know the person never gave it a chance in the first place (even if the person thought he did; he didn't). It's basically "it sucks because they didn't do it in a way I am used to".

Basically, Skate sucks because it aint like Tony Hawk. That's bull.

RT makes sense in the context of the right stick control scheme they have. Yet this blogger here insist that it is objectively stupid, because he is subjectively more used to the traditional controls.

Someone THAT stubborn about the traditional control schemes is the WORST judge of a game that's trying something different with the control schemes. I wouldnt ask a Tony Hawk hardcore fan to judge Skate 1's demo either.

Times like these shows OS's weakness. It is a very specific site for a very specific audience.

[cmehustle]

First off I wanna say I commend any EA reps for coming into this thread, I know u guys get paid t but this almost being a gluton for punishment. I haven't bought a EA b-ball game since 05 simply because in my opinion 2k is better but I still pay attntion to threads. I almost actually started feeling like live might be worth a purchase in the future after last years game. I promise to keep an open mind in the future, but this looks like another 2k year for me and my peoples. They're foundation is just too rock solid while Ea's just seems flimsy and weak to build off, which is why u guys continuously need to 'start over'. Thanks and sorry forthe length of my post.

[Fngb3]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

I want a game where someone with superior basketball knowledge will generally beat a 12yo kid who plays games 24/7 and is a dynamo on the sticks.

Yes, I admit having the ball in the right hand at the right time is important bball knowledge. I am looking bigger picture I suppose... finding the open shooter, knowing when to run a fast break or when to slow it down, running a play and reacting to what the defense gives you.

With all this micro control I just see myself getting so frustrated with the game just trying to bring the ball up the court, let alone running a play.

Sure sure I'm with ya there 100%. I guess I would say to that that each of those things you mentioned could also be considered micro managed aspects and that the bigger picture is the interaction of all of them... That's a broad and vague enough statement that I think I'm safe from you disagreeing with me on that hahah.
I guess I mean, yes, agreed, all those things you said are just as important but that protecting the ball should just be added to your list as one of those things that's really actually part of the bigger picture, just like finding open guys, etc.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

If I'm on the right wing and get passed, or level with my defender, and move the left stick up and left towards the hoop, and my defender is on my left hip, I don't want the ball in my left hand. I want it in my right. Now, this could be context sensitive, which it probably is in 2K, but I'm totally down with the responsability of putting the ball in the safest place (in my players right hand, with his body between the defender and the ball). If I'm playing against someone too lazy to do that, they should pay. This is exactly the kind of thing I like about the controls.

Ive had Rondo ripped when I was just bringing the ball up facing the defender. It didnt matter what hand it was in. And it shouldn’t because this isn’t something you cant accomplish in one year or maybe even 10. Basketball players protect the dribble with very intuitive, and subtle skills that you cant possibly imitate with a controller unless you cheapen it to something like Madden’s protect the ball function. I have another idea that might be more complex but still nothing like real life and even then on ball steals on a PG should be rare when you are just bringing it up one on one.

Its stuff like that, that cheapens the team game. If the PG has to do through the leg and around the back dribbles to protect the ball at risk of it getting stolen how are you going to run an offense without something that looks like an And1 game? That was one of the main beefs with 2k10 online was that I couldn’t play a slow paced game and run plays because in increased the risk of on ball steals.

[Fngb3]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

No surprises in this roundtable: extreme hate and bias.

When someone whines about RT/R2 for passing, I know the person never gave it a chance in the first place (even if the person thought he did; he didn't). It's basically "it sucks because they didn't do it in a way I am used to".

Basically, Skate sucks because it aint like Tony Hawk. That's bull.

RT makes sense in the context of the right stick control scheme they have. Yet this blogger here insist that it is objectively stupid, because he is subjectively more used to the traditional controls.

Someone THAT stubborn about the traditional control schemes is the WORST judge of a game that's trying something different with the control schemes. I wouldnt ask a Tony Hawk hardcore fan to judge Skate 1's demo either.

Times like these shows OS's weakness. It is a very specific site for a very specific audience.

I dunno I feel like we've been pretty good on this thread. Most people are being pretty civil.

and to cmehustle, we haven't heard from rEAnimator for hours. Let's assume he had to go to bed or something. I hope he comes back I feel like we've had some solid content for EA to chew on...

[btrapp]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

It's easier to stay the same. Not to get all dramatic but it's true in business, and society and everywhere else. Familiar is easier. New is scary.
I think the change of the name is being undervalued. We have been told from the very start that all of this is a reboot. If we look at reasoning you really have to be honest and say, real-time physics is eventually going to be a must in sports games. EAs been working hard to keep up but doing it with a system that at it's very core couldn't compete. At some point they needed to bite the bullet and start over and they gave us ample warning of that.

I've heard people on youtube say "why did they release this demo? they could have gotten more people to buy it if they hadn't."
Really? And if you got blind sided buy this game AFTER you dropped $60 on it you'd be happier?

Listen, these people aren't stupid, despite what so many are saying. They knew they were starting over, and that it was going to be ugly. Much respect to them for pullin the trigger and doing it, AND not suckering us into it. Thank you for this demo EA. I'm not gonna buy your game this year, but it's nothing personal. You can bet that I'll be followin, and a few years from now I'll be back because you guys were stand up enough to tell it like it is.


Interesting side note: In 3, maybe 4 years, when 2K has to make the inevitable leap to real-time physics, who do you think is gonna be ahead then??

2k, probably. They seem to be good at introducing new concepts without alienating their fan base.

[Fngb3]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

If the PG has to do through the leg and around the back dribbles to protect the ball at risk of it getting stolen how are you going to run an offense without something that looks like an And1 game? That was one of the main beefs with 2k10 online was that I couldn’t play a slow paced game and run plays because in increased the risk of on ball steals.

I hear that. One of my next posts I said pretty much the same thing. It's ridiculous to have to sit at the top of the arc and dribble like a madman just to protect the ball. That's tiring AND unrealistic. But, that said, I still don't have a problem with the act of properly protecting the ball being under our control. In the NBA, those savvy vets just turn their bodies and put the ball out of reach. That's a pretty simple command to add.

Heck, we have a post up button, maybe that works fine for protecting the ball....