nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

[kingpnp3]

nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement

that is the KEY difference between live and 2k. forget it. lets not even bring up 2k at the moment.

thats the key difference in live stepping into the new generation of basketball. i knew years ago that the movement was stiff but i didnt care back in live 04, 05, days because there was no other option out there to tell me it could be better. 2k comes along and eventually shows me different even though i wasnt in love with that game either at the time.

but now that i know its possible to have a more FLUID looking player on my Screen thats what i want. and anything short of that is a failure.

How to fix this?
EA use to be king of mo-cap. what happened?
who knows.

so lets start with a theory of what i think needs to happen.
#1.

look at this nba live 08 mo cap youtube clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvefCw_abhg

and just in case you think thats to old. here's another mo cap video from EA's site talking about Mo cap in general. pause it at the 0:06 mark. you see while the guy is in the air about to dunk. right on his back. there are a few dots on his back going straight down his spine. thats not enough. they also need to be on both sides of his upper body from both armpits going down to both sides of his waist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjrWkZl8hO4&feature=player_embedded

http://www.ea.com/ca/news/electronic-arts-mocap-studio-ea-capture

but makes sure to pause it at the 0:47 spot.

you know how everyone says its almost like nba live players seem to be stick figures with elbow and wrist movement. well i think 0:47 shows you why that is. the human body doesnt just bend at the waist. it also slightly can bend between the waist and the armpits. thats where you get the fluid motion from. or in live's case, the stick figure. look at how lives little dots are only on the guys back, then at the hips. they need to put more along the persons sides between the hip(waist) and the arm pit).
if you do that you will have more fluid motion to work with. now granted you will add that much more to the ram as well. but you figure that out and we're good to go.

NOw to prove what i said is correct. lets bring 2k back into the discussion. Lets look at 2k12(13') mo cap video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY4hHBracpg

look at the 1:23 mark. remember what i said about lives motion capture. they needed more of the dots on the sides of the player. not just on the hip or waist, and not just at the shoulders. but everything in between(the armpits and the waist). live would put a straight line of dots down the center of the back(the spine). of the player forgetting about the sides. thats the key difference.
EA people. please pay attention to this detail. this can make or break live 13 and any other live in the future.

lets get deeper into MO-cap software. from the horses mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs1aQSTW0r0

this is Vicon, where blade mo cap comes from.

http://www.vizworld.com/2012/08/vicon-showcase-motion-capture-products-siggraph2012/

http://www.vicon.com/products/blade.html

again, i dont mean to keep bringing 2k into this. but as far as FLUID movement of a players body. 2k has it down to a T. you have to give credit where its due. imagine if nba live had that player movement but added its game play?

[chandlerbang]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

i totally agree, I was wondering if EA even used humans to mocap in the first place

[kingpnp3]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

i totally agree, I was wondering if EA even used humans to mocap in the first place

they were one of if not the first sports gaming company to do so. they were probably the only company that had enough cash to pull it off from their success in the 90's.

so yes they've been using humans. once you watch the videos i posted above. you will realize why their movement lacks and exactly WHERE it lacks along the players body(upper body to be exact).

The more of the sensors you put on the body at moveable or bendable parts, the more life like or human like motion you capture. but the more you capture the more ram is going to be used up , which makes it harder to put all that motion into the game without it being choppy, etc, etc. but we've seen enough games as well as 2k hoops games to realize there is enough ram in xbox 360 and the ps3 to pull it off. so they first need to start with the small part, add the extra sensors on people to collect the proper movements along the upper body. once they do that. then we're moving in the right direction. they could do everything else right. and this game would still never be on par with 2k and would still look like a last generation game due to the robotic movement.

[TUSS11]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

I doubt the number of dots on the player's back is causing the robotic movements. I think it's caused by them altering the animations after recording them. Just my opinion.

[Boilerbuzz]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

I doubt the number of dots on the player's back is causing the robotic movements. I think it's caused by them altering the animations after recording them. Just my opinion.

Now someone is thinking...

[kingpnp3]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

I doubt the number of dots on the player's back is causing the robotic movements. I think it's caused by them altering the animations after recording them. Just my opinion.

could be the case. but here's the thing.

if you just checked the vids i posted. what did you see as a difference between 2k and live's mo-cap?

EA has sensors(dots)- on the spine of the person. nothing on the sides above the waist and below the shoulders.

2k has sensors(dots), on both sides of the person below the shoulders and above the waist.

I said this before i ever pulled these vids. its as if the nba live players upper body is stationary while the arms move and feet move. you can also bend at the waist. but thats it.

human movement is more then that. especially if you look at the top half of a person. i was just playing 2k (my player mode). i was watching another teammate shoot freethrows. it gave that close up view.

every time my teammate bounced the ball before he shot a freethrow. not only did he slightly bend over(something both games have). not only did his wrist, and elbow bend, not only did his shoulder move(both games has this). but more then just his shoulder moved. his pecks moved, if you roll the camera around to his back. you can see his shoulder blade(Or slightly outside of that(since you only see a small portion of whats outside of the jersey). moving. thats something only 2k has.

Now again. where are those dots(sensors) on 2k? there are a set of dots in those areas. because instead of 2k putting them in the middle of the person. they choose to put them on the sides. this catches the slightly movement of other body parts that are connected to the movable parts.

Now lets say LIVE captures this same animation/movement of those parts of the body. then you would be correct in saying. once they have all of that info. they DELETE that info(probably for the purpose of saving space(disc or ram). otherwise there is no logical reason to get rid of human movement. when we all know it would just enhance the look of the game to the human eye.

[P-Dub]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

EA has sensors(dots)- on the spine of the person. nothing on the sides above the waist and below the shoulders.

Watch your first video again. 0:27 seconds in. 2 dots middle of the spine, 2 dots above for the shoulder blades, and 2 dots below for the top of the hips.

As for the robotic movement of Live character animations, my opinion is that it has to do with a couple of things.

First, EA never really made a basketball game animate well as far as transitioning from one animation to another from a physical aspect. I have always been able to see players take off and dunk while standing still, or jogging and then all of a sudden take off in another direction because of the animation. Even in the Elite 11 demo, you could change direction in midair by adjusting your layup or dunk attempt. The best they ever did at this aspect was in NBA Live 10. It's like they are not taking into account the momentum of previous animations with regards to a player's momentum to select or even adjust the next animation that gets displayed.

The second thing depends on how many bones they actually end up using in the animation. Too save on memory and processing power, they could remove several bones from animations, although this would cause the player models to look more stiff.

Even another possibility is the motion capture sessions. Look at those videos and tell me the motion capture actors are really taking it serious. Ever seen animations where it looks like the character could care less about it? That's from the motion capture.

[kingpnp3]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

Watch your first video again. 0:27 seconds in. 2 dots middle of the spine, 2 dots above for the shoulder blades, and 2 dots below for the top of the hips.

As for the robotic movement of Live character animations, my opinion is that it has to do with a couple of things.

First, EA never really made a basketball game animate well as far as transitioning from one animation to another from a physical aspect. I have always been able to see players take off and dunk while standing still, or jogging and then all of a sudden take off in another direction because of the animation. Even in the Elite 11 demo, you could change direction in midair by adjusting your layup or dunk attempt. The best they ever did at this aspect was in NBA Live 10. It's like they are not taking into account the momentum of previous animations with regards to a player's momentum to select or even adjust the next animation that gets displayed.

The second thing depends on how many bones they actually end up using in the animation. Too save on memory and processing power, they could remove several bones from animations, although this would cause the player models to look more stiff.

Even another possibility is the motion capture sessions. Look at those videos and tell me the motion capture actors are really taking it serious. Ever seen animations where it looks like the character could care less about it? That's from the motion capture.

i know that. you're still missing the fact that 2k's dots are 1,2,3 on both sides of the persons back from armpit to waist.

EA has them on the shoulders, so does 2k.

the main difference is that EA chose the spine straight down the middle.
its like EA's looks a Capital I (from shoulder and waist. While 2k's looks like roman numero II . do you now understand the difference?

but i agree with what you're saying about the other possibilities. which is a darn shame if any of those are the case. like i said EA USE... to be king of mo-cap.

lets get back to the dots(sensors). in the original nba live mo cap i posted.

pause it at 0:32 . notice on the back. there are 6 dots.
2 back shoulder,
2 right down the center of the spine
and
2 back side of the waist

vs
2k's clip
there are 8 dots(sensors on the back of the player.

4 starting from the left shoulder blade down to the waist in a straight line.
then
4 more starting from the right shoulder blade down to the waist in a straight line.


are you guys trying to tell me i'm seeing things? what i'm saying is, if you dont capture it. you cant use it. real simple. i know. but i'm saying some of that upper body animation is completely lost. remember I've stated this same thing in other threads. without ever watching these mo cap vids. i just ASSUMED something may have been wrong with the mo cap. i didnt know exactly where the sensors should go or would be missing. but i called it out. and i was exactly right. for me to point out where i see a lack of animation on the player. then show you guys where EA is missing the sensors. then show you where 2k has those missing sensors on their guy. i'm just saying. sometimes you have to look at the elephant in the room. maybe it isnt rocket science. maybe it is something that simple. where someone during the mo-cap didnt find it necessary to do that. figured "we'll catch it in post production" and here we are. with a robotic torso since live 05 probably. it hasnt gotten any better to be honest.but how could it, if this is the same way they have done mo-cap for live the entire time.

[Boilerbuzz]

i know that. you're still missing the fact that 2k's dots are 1,2,3 on both sides of the persons back from armpit to waist.

EA has them on the shoulders, so does 2k.

the main difference is that EA chose the spine straight down the middle.
its like EA's looks a Capital I (from shoulder and waist. While 2k's looks like roman numero II . do you now understand the difference?

but i agree with what you're saying about the other possibilities. which is a darn shame if any of those are the case. like i said EA USE... to be king of mo-cap.

The EA mocap facilities are tops in the industry. And they have very mocap techs. If the mocap is crap, blame art team for mangling the hell out it. That's my opinion and it's likely off base. But there it is. Either art of mocap talent/direction.

[kingpnp3]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

The EA mocap facilities are tops in the industry. And they have very mocap techs. If the mocap is crap, blame art team for mangling the hell out it. That's my opinion and it's likely off base. But there it is. Either art of mocap talent/direction.

ay you may want to go back up and check out the edited reply. i was typing and watching the vids again while you were replying.

[2kfanatic]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

Mo cap is good but that's only half the battle because you need to string the different animations smoothly for it to look good and if you over do it you will have the "canned animations" effect. Its really tricky because you don't want to interrupt the animation in the middle because it will look twitchy or jerky but you don't want to wait for it because it will take away control.

Adding too many animations that look good but plays too long will give you lots of problems. So its looking good vs control. And another conflicting element of gameplay is the collision since it also will interrupt an animation and a corresponding bump animation should go with whatever animation is playing previously(dribbling or shooting).

Maybe next gen they can develop engines that looks good and controls well.

[kingpnp3]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

Mo cap is good but that's only half the battle because you need to string the different animations smoothly for it to look good and if you over do it you will have the "canned animations" effect. Its really tricky because you don't want to interrupt the animation in the middle because it will look twitchy or jerky but you don't want to wait for it because it will take away control.

Adding too many animations that look good but plays too long will give you lots of problems. So its looking good vs control. And another conflicting element of gameplay is the collision since it also will interrupt an animation and a corresponding bump animation should go with whatever animation is playing previously(dribbling or shooting).

Maybe next gen they can develop engines that looks good and controls well.

and you are 100% correct. my thing is this, if you didnt get the first half right(mo cap) then you cant get the later half right and expect a great product. you have to get the foundation correct.

less isnt more when you're doing mo cap. more is better. so you the animaters, etc have more to work with. then you can make the tough decisions on what stays and what goes. but if its never presented to you because those little things were never captured. then you wont be able to pick from those things at all. thats the problem i see. we have to fix step one first. then lets talk about step 2 like you said.

[Boilerbuzz]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

and you are 100% correct. my thing is this, if you didnt get the first half right(mo cap) then you cant get the later half right and expect a great product. you have to get the foundation correct.

The thing about the whole process is that you're introducing errors along the way at every step. There's no avoiding it. The key is to minimize those errors as much as possible. At the end of the day, I have a hard time thinking that their mocap is the biggest culprit in the issues we're seeing. That's just my opinion though.

[kingpnp3]

Re: nba live 13- fix the player robotic movement(its in the mo-cap)

The thing about the whole process is that you're introducing errors along the way at every step. There's no avoiding it. The key is to minimize those errors as much as possible. At the end of the day, I have a hard time thinking that their mocap is the biggest culprit in the issues we're seeing. That's just my opinion though.

i didnt say it was the BIGGEST culprit. i said MO cap is the FOUNDATION. thats what you start with.

if you get that wrong or your miss a step. its almost impossible for you to produce a great quality fluid moving hoop player.

get the foundation right first. FIRST, not biggest. FIRST. FOUNDATION.

then move on to step two get that tight. then step 3.

if i clearly state that when i play nba live 04 or 05 til elite's demo which i still have. i feel the guys top have doesnt move like it should. top half being from the armpits to right above the waist. thats exactly where the sensors are missing with EA's mo cap suit. they have them on the spine. doing so will only
allow you to have the stick figure spine bend right in the center of the players back. to simulate real life bend of a persons upper half(between the shoulders and the waist). an animator will have to try to copy the same mo cap spine line and place one on both sides of the character. in order to get that BENDing simumlation on either side of the body. so once the body is implemented it bends along the mo cap stick figure frame.

the problem with doing mo cal like that and assuming the animator will duplicate the spine on both sides. is what happens when the animator doesnt do it? you will lose fluid motion on the sides of the players top half. or what if your duplication of the spine isnt accurate to how the sides of a person would bend in relation to their actual spine.

see u run into possible problems not capturing it from the get go. thats why i say do what 2k does on this one. capture the sides of the players body . cause guess what, i cant see your spine anyway in real life. all i see is your sides bending or your entire mass in front bend forward or backward. especially when you have on a shirt(jersey).