Re: is it time for a control scheme change?
I agree with you that they (post moves) are simple in 2k, because they illustrate how to perform them all, and NBA Live 15 is really lacking in that area, also adding that 2K has been the only game on the market for a number of years, so muscle memory is key there.
Unfortunately, In Live 15, you have to be adept at pre-planning the moves you don't really know how to perform, and also be able to execute that move quickly in multiple phases like a finishing move in Mortal Kombat.
Many players watch the in game moves, and use some specific contextual animation(s) as a que for the performing the next move(2K) in sequence, instead of executing the full move and making the D react (LIVE). That's what I meant by an advanced tutorial with branching moves added in detail. They are used to the post game in 2K, which is more contextual in that when you post up, only certain moves will be available from certain positions on the floor, dependent on the contact or defense initiated, and the particular animation guides you to the next move. It is easier to perform, and a much smoother in game transition visually, but it provides less control to break out of a particular animations than the LIVE scheme.
Example:
What happens in LIVE 15, if you use on offense, in sequence, in the post, with the correct timing and positioning... Rt click R3 + Left stick left then right + tap X, + 2x tap Y + left stick left (or right) towards basket + tap X and then hold X to shoot (not that it does anything special, lol)? Can you visualize that sequence in your head before performing it? Is that what it does? Does it make sense physically and visually? Can we do that right and left handed from both high and low post positions? With both pivot feet? How do we initiate the proper pivot foot off the catch? Nothing in game will tell you except practice with specific players, but you can definitely perform it with certain players, with specific ratings skill requirements. That is the level of detail we should be researching and asking for, and they are (the advanced moves) in there.
What move(s) can be performed from the branches of a double hesitation move or Euro step in LIVE 15? Can you do Kobe's double spin post fade away? In the Kobe example, that's 3 button combo-actions to perform the 1rst move (spin gather) of the sequence, not including pump fakes and other stick moves that can be chained with it, before and after the spin. Add a timed pump fake (step 2?) and you started the dream shake (step 3?) sequence. That's why I compare it to a finishing move in a fighting game. James Harden's crossover jab-step-fadeaway combo? (yes) What would the button sequence look like? 2K does a much better job explaining the buttons in it's game, especially at the rim.
"Step one" of their 3 step branching move system, is reserved for those casuals who choose not to "practice" in detail. Step 2 and 3 are branched, are more advanced, and are probably never seen regularly by most gamers except for the hardcore or when someone is spamming buttons and accidentally sees something new.
The wish is to illustrate all of the step 2 and step 3 branches, for all moves. its almost like they (EA) were trying to save printing costs or perhaps a vast amount of move combinations not worth the time to print every one in detail exists. Either way, I hope they address the issue in LIVE 16, and provide more direction.
It's partly LIVE's fault in that the game is so easy to pick up and play without these advanced details, and only using step 1 moves will suffice in most instances against most players. It's also why some call it arcade-like, because step 1 moves are still very effective to the average gamer.
That's what I meant by advanced tutorial.
I play a lot with the 76ers and Joel Embiid, and in game, he plays for me in my dynasty like "the Dream" incarnate, but I took many games and failures and turnovers to learn his game (can't wait til they give him some shooting range as seen in his many online videos).
This is the basic controls in LIVE 14.
They gave us
for Live 15, but it stops at the most basic level 2 moves.
Know how to bounce pass? Shoot off the backboard? How many knew that on defense, L2 is NOT a "defense stick to X player" button like it is in 2K, but use it exactly that way and complain that they can't play D or that D sucks, or that the computer constantly drives by them to the rim non stop because of a combination of bad defense, inability to stop momentum and positioning? When you get in good defensive position, it allows you to take better angles at the sacrifice of movement speed (somewhat similar LT use in FIFA and NHL on offense), and also helps force your opponent to pick up his dribble as they lose momentum against your physical pressure.
What they explained (controls) to us, only scratches the surface, leaving the rest for us (unfairly to some) to figure out, but that is what separates the casual from the truly hardcore. Some of the hardcore gamers are almost always in tester mode when playing, that's how they find the "cheats" and "cheese". Problem is, people don't want to figure it out, or don't know how or where to figure it out, but they do want to know how. How many game questions do you routinely see asked in the OS forums that could be answered much faster by reading another OS thread or doing a quick google search elsewhere, or just trying it in game? Some can't be bothered.
They used to put paperback instructions in the games with all the possible moves and other important game play data.
For testing, those that aren't already doing it, think of a move you want to execute in LIVE 15 (or 2K15 for that matter), then think of the possible buttons involved, write it down, then perfect it with the proper sequence, timing and practice, per move, per player. There are actually a lot of moves we can do in LIVE 15 that give us more than enough space we need to operate and score successfully in game, more than the defense can handle at times (Kyrie is a monster), depending on the team.
IMO its this ability to branch moves to create space in LIVE, the player control +physics/momentum, and the individual floor spacing that personally keeps me picking up LIVE over 2K, despite other significant issues in the LIVE series. 2K15 likes to show its best player movement variety at the rim(shot stick), while Live 15 shows its best player movement variety on the floor (dribble stick), and each game does that specific part better than the other game, IMO.
NHL 15 offers a hybrid control scheme that works well in that game for a balance of simple and complex, perhaps EA could look at adding hybrid controls or allow us to re-map some game play controls at some point, to make some moves more accessible to the non-joystick adept.
Personally I would rather have the advanced moves explained in text or a full non-mandatory (personally hate that you are required to execute some tutorials before you can access the whole game mode) interactive tutorial because don't want to see it (control scheme) 'watered down' further and sacrifice the branching system and its possible future content updates, as it already works well.
I agree with you that they (post moves) are simple in 2k, because they illustrate how to perform them all, and NBA Live 15 is really lacking in that area, also adding that 2K has been the only game on the market for a number of years, so muscle memory is key there.
Unfortunately, In Live 15, you have to be adept at pre-planning the moves you don't really know how to perform, and also be able to execute that move quickly in multiple phases like a finishing move in Mortal Kombat.
Many players watch the in game moves, and use some specific contextual animation(s) as a que for the performing the next move(2K) in sequence, instead of executing the full move and making the D react (LIVE). That's what I meant by an advanced tutorial with branching moves added in detail. They are used to the post game in 2K, which is more contextual in that when you post up, only certain moves will be available from certain positions on the floor, dependent on the contact or defense initiated, and the particular animation guides you to the next move. It is easier to perform, and a much smoother in game transition visually, but it provides less control to break out of a particular animations than the LIVE scheme.
Example:
What happens in LIVE 15, if you use on offense, in sequence, in the post, with the correct timing and positioning... Rt click R3 + Left stick left then right + tap X, + 2x tap Y + left stick left (or right) towards basket + tap X and then hold X to shoot (not that it does anything special, lol)? Can you visualize that sequence in your head before performing it? Is that what it does? Does it make sense physically and visually? Can we do that right and left handed from both high and low post positions? With both pivot feet? How do we initiate the proper pivot foot off the catch? Nothing in game will tell you except practice with specific players, but you can definitely perform it with certain players, with specific ratings skill requirements. That is the level of detail we should be researching and asking for, and they are (the advanced moves) in there.
What move(s) can be performed from the branches of a double hesitation move or Euro step in LIVE 15? Can you do Kobe's double spin post fade away? In the Kobe example, that's 3 button combo-actions to perform the 1rst move (spin gather) of the sequence, not including pump fakes and other stick moves that can be chained with it, before and after the spin. Add a timed pump fake (step 2?) and you started the dream shake (step 3?) sequence. That's why I compare it to a finishing move in a fighting game. James Harden's crossover jab-step-fadeaway combo? (yes) What would the button sequence look like? 2K does a much better job explaining the buttons in it's game, especially at the rim.
"Step one" of their 3 step branching move system, is reserved for those casuals who choose not to "practice" in detail. Step 2 and 3 are branched, are more advanced, and are probably never seen regularly by most gamers except for the hardcore or when someone is spamming buttons and accidentally sees something new.
The wish is to illustrate all of the step 2 and step 3 branches, for all moves. its almost like they (EA) were trying to save printing costs or perhaps a vast amount of move combinations not worth the time to print every one in detail exists. Either way, I hope they address the issue in LIVE 16, and provide more direction.
It's partly LIVE's fault in that the game is so easy to pick up and play without these advanced details, and only using step 1 moves will suffice in most instances against most players. It's also why some call it arcade-like, because step 1 moves are still very effective to the average gamer.
That's what I meant by advanced tutorial.
I play a lot with the 76ers and Joel Embiid, and in game, he plays for me in my dynasty like "the Dream" incarnate, but I took many games and failures and turnovers to learn his game (can't wait til they give him some shooting range as seen in his many online videos).
This is the basic controls in LIVE 14.
Spoiler
They gave us
Spoiler
Know how to bounce pass? Shoot off the backboard? How many knew that on defense, L2 is NOT a "defense stick to X player" button like it is in 2K, but use it exactly that way and complain that they can't play D or that D sucks, or that the computer constantly drives by them to the rim non stop because of a combination of bad defense, inability to stop momentum and positioning? When you get in good defensive position, it allows you to take better angles at the sacrifice of movement speed (somewhat similar LT use in FIFA and NHL on offense), and also helps force your opponent to pick up his dribble as they lose momentum against your physical pressure.
What they explained (controls) to us, only scratches the surface, leaving the rest for us (unfairly to some) to figure out, but that is what separates the casual from the truly hardcore. Some of the hardcore gamers are almost always in tester mode when playing, that's how they find the "cheats" and "cheese". Problem is, people don't want to figure it out, or don't know how or where to figure it out, but they do want to know how. How many game questions do you routinely see asked in the OS forums that could be answered much faster by reading another OS thread or doing a quick google search elsewhere, or just trying it in game? Some can't be bothered.
They used to put paperback instructions in the games with all the possible moves and other important game play data.
For testing, those that aren't already doing it, think of a move you want to execute in LIVE 15 (or 2K15 for that matter), then think of the possible buttons involved, write it down, then perfect it with the proper sequence, timing and practice, per move, per player. There are actually a lot of moves we can do in LIVE 15 that give us more than enough space we need to operate and score successfully in game, more than the defense can handle at times (Kyrie is a monster), depending on the team.
IMO its this ability to branch moves to create space in LIVE, the player control +physics/momentum, and the individual floor spacing that personally keeps me picking up LIVE over 2K, despite other significant issues in the LIVE series. 2K15 likes to show its best player movement variety at the rim(shot stick), while Live 15 shows its best player movement variety on the floor (dribble stick), and each game does that specific part better than the other game, IMO.
NHL 15 offers a hybrid control scheme that works well in that game for a balance of simple and complex, perhaps EA could look at adding hybrid controls or allow us to re-map some game play controls at some point, to make some moves more accessible to the non-joystick adept.
Personally I would rather have the advanced moves explained in text or a full non-mandatory (personally hate that you are required to execute some tutorials before you can access the whole game mode) interactive tutorial because don't want to see it (control scheme) 'watered down' further and sacrifice the branching system and its possible future content updates, as it already works well.
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