Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

[kingpnp]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

I think its okay to defend that game, but most people defending it is saying that the controls will save the game which is ironic since most of them has not played it yet so how did they know how the controls are.

two questions. #1 why are you here? 2k is .... thata way. #2 pay attention to what the Devs say, pay attention to those who demoed the game not the kids at the Tmobile event that looked horrible 10 peopel that had no clue what they were doing with only a little time on the game cant tell me anything about how the game feels/or plays. now devs and some guys that were let in on it for hours. now thats differnt. atleast you get a chance to get use to the controls. i hated 2k strictly because of the controls when i first played it. cause i was on the live controls. once i had the game for awhile then i got to the point where i could enjoy what was there to enjoy and talk bad about 2k's bad points. but by then i had the ability to speak on the game. sure Devs are fan boys. but fan boys or not. when a dev says just play the demo over and over and over again even before these vids. i have to think back when was the last time ea's devs rushed me to the demo? .... NEVER. so that tells me two things, vids wont look hot(animations/graphics). but there's something so different about the controls i must check it out for myself. now if you cant put that together yourself. just listen to them tell you "animations/graphics will be lacking, BUT the FEEL of the game...."

[kingpnp]

Re: Canned Animations Are NEVER better then RTP

hey kingpnp, i read your post and Da_czar in basketball is not hockey thread. why not reply on da_czar post?

about this:

"Okay I understand your position much much better now. Thanks for breaking that down for me. I can see how you have come to that conclusion. Honestly I hope your right. The last thing we need is for elite to tank.


When I hear things like they sacrificed the reality of the mechanics of jumping to enhance control though I have to think that is a directional..IE Hockey Guy inspired change.

I fear the day when we elevate the control outside of the realm of reality simply to fulfill a marketing manifesto. What's next ? These are EXACTLY the types of decisions I was referring to when I said that Basketball is not Hockey...

The timing of the knee bend allows the offensive player to make a proper read. It enhances the effect of pump fakes and hesitation moves... It allows people to pull up right in your grill and your still able to challenge the shot without getting an abnormal amount of blocks. Knee bends on jumping to challenge shots IRL force you to ANTICIPATE to get a block.

This leads to the cat and mouse game between the offense and the defense. IF you want to block it you have to commit early which opens the way for my pumpfake to wreak havoc with your anticipation.

I wouldn't expect Hockey dude to understand this and although guys love the "response" of having that control it is not based on the fundamental principals of the sport or the mechanics of how the human body works...

Basketball is a game of rhythm and timing and style WITH substance. Control and power with grace and fluidity of movement. You absolutely can NOT have a simulation of the NBA experience without that. Its not one or the other. Its not control vs animation. This is not hockey.. the timing and movement is as important as the strategy. As you can see from my one example above it is indeed tied into the strategy.

This is not to differ with your point because I can honestly see that. We all want a better game. My reminding them of the things that I see as important to the soul of the game is not in opposition to anyone who wishes to enjoy the game as is or to support the company."

I post coz you make a thread that related on what his argument to you. Can you answer Da_czar post now to justify your thread?<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

i 've already answered it. i said what most dont want to hear. RTP came from NHL. NHL is the best hockey game on the planet says the fans forget what Ea tells us. i have guys who dont even watch hockey telling me "you better play that NHL" NHL was down on its luck 3 years or so ago. they went with RTP. ramped up, took them 2 or so years to get where they are now. on top of the hockey gaming scene. people keep saying how great the control is. so that tells me when they bring RTP to hoop. look forward to the Next installment. this one to me is a beta. i will be honest. like some have said "it would be nice if they waited and took a year off" but they wont/cant i guess. and truth be told we are all the testers. its wack that we have to pay top dollar to be beta testers when they should be paying us LOL> but guess what. thats what happens with software companies. does it not? especially dealing with things that have new installments coming next year (Microsoft windows anyone).

for the 2k fans. that will say thats why they wont pick this game up because they are making us pay to be beta testers. dont forget 2k10 online functionality was so horrid for what? 3 or so months. we were betta testers in that. it took them forever to give us a patch. games were freezing up all kinds of little beta like glitches. you couldn't even enjoy the strides they made for the little beta like glitches. so both of these companies need to be popped upside the head for making us pay for beta games. because they RUSH Things to come out. because we told them the games need to come up before the hoop season hits. its our fault. it wasn't always like that.

so i deal with it. and will wait until elite 12 if those RTP controls feel like they say they should feel. if they feel like trash. i will be back on my safe 2k with the same old controls and more canned animations that they supposedly say you can break out of now. and deal with that for another year until elite 12 comes out. demo that and if its still wack looking and feeling. then i'm done with Live for the next 5 years. lol thats how i did live when they went to far south for my liking. i'll give them a chance to hang themselves.

[2kfanatic]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

two questions. #1 why are you here? 2k is .... thata way. #2 pay attention to what the Devs say, pay attention to those who demoed the game not the kids at the Tmobile event that looked horrible 10 peopel that had no clue what they were doing with only a little time on the game cant tell me anything about how the game feels/or plays. now devs and some guys that were let in on it for hours. now thats differnt. atleast you get a chance to get use to the controls. i hated 2k strictly because of the controls when i first played it. cause i was on the live controls. once i had the game for awhile then i got to the point where i could enjoy what was there to enjoy and talk bad about 2k's bad points. but by then i had the ability to speak on the game. sure Devs are fan boys. but fan boys or not. when a dev says just play the demo over and over and over again even before these vids. i have to think back when was the last time ea's devs rushed me to the demo? .... NEVER. so that tells me two things, vids wont look hot(animations/graphics). but there's something so different about the controls i must check it out for myself. now if you cant put that together yourself. just listen to them tell you "animations/graphics will be lacking, BUT the FEEL of the game...."

#1. Why can't I be here? My username is 2kfanatic but we are all basketball fans here so you cannot tell me where I should or should not post okay? (I played mostly live from 2000 - 2007 and was playing a little bit of 2k since I don't have a console back then so lI played live in my pc)?

#2. I am not saying the live is pulling another EA with their marketing bull what I'm saying is that most of us has not yet tried BOTH games and yet most of the live fans talks too much **** about 2k11's controls when they have not yet tried it themselves. Live will probably be better in that department but that does not mean 2k won't be good or great in that department either (of course I don't know yet I have not tried the game yet but I really really hope this aspect improves).

Most live fan's are saying that "I would rather have a mediocre looking game that gives me 100% control than to have a beautiful game with no control". They assume 2k11's controls will be so bad even before trying it. Well for me I would rather have a beautiful looking game that controls well than to have a game that looks mediocre and have 100% control (but yeah its just me).

And yes I will try both demos since like YOU, I am a basketball fan before I was a live or a 2k fan. But I do understand where your coming from since I have played 2k9 and 2k10 as well and I agree that its hard to go from point A to point B.

And yes RTP is way better than canned animations but I do not agree that it will make a basketball game alone and if adding RTP means other aspects of the game will be sacrificed then I (me) don't think its worth it.

[Dawgthem]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER NEVER.

now that doesn't mean the little animations that are in ELITE dont need work. they do. but that doesn't mean you should be asking for your old canned animations to be placed back in with more added like 2k.

no no no no.

VISUALLY (us watching these videos) of course it will LOOK better if all you see were great canned animations vs RTP. why? because you are not controlling the game. so when something happens on video. you THINK thats what the user wanted to happen. if the animations are smooth enough. you would not be able to tell otherwise unless the USER said so.

THis is why judging ELITE 11 videos is ignorant(to not know). and i'm not using the word ignorant to sound harsh. there's a reason they keep saying "Just play the demo", just play the demo..you'll see. there's a reason that some of the guys from the other event playing 5 vs 5 admitted its funner to play then it was to watch their own vids. and they didn't even know how to use the controls yet.

i repeate YOU CANT JUDGE A GAME BASED ON RTP IN ITS FIRST YEAR ON VIDEOS. that would be a backwards approach to review such a game.

now 2k11. view the videos. more canned animations. they allow you to break out of a lot more they say. thats great. but its still tons and tons and tons of canned animations. so you will never ever know if the the person on the sticks even made that move. or was it a canned animation. they had to deal with while playing.

so i' will do EA a favor and say it. DO NOT MAKE A JUDGEMENT UNTIL THE DEMO. and even then know this is year 1 of this. go back to nhl and remember what happened with that. if they are on to something but need more time for more tweeks. give them that if that means Elite12 or 13 will end up being the best hoop game ever. cause thats what nhl is now so the fans say. if i told you i've been messing you around for 6 years now or so. then i switch it up and use tactics i've used to resurrect another game that is now a hit 3 years later. would you wait on me, or would you say i cant take it turn it off. no RTP. go back to canned animations just add more? thats called a bandaid vs having surgery. surgery sucks. usually people come out moving slower then they did before they went in. my mom had knee surgery years ago. her knees were that bad. the thing is, if you asked her during the first few weeks if she would rather go back to just the constant knee pain when walking. she would've said YES take me back. because it was so hard to get from surgery, post surgery to where she is now. not perfect but 10 times better then where she was PRe surgery. thats what this is folks.

are you willing to wait or are you just throwin in the towel and saying i cant take it. just change it back and add more animations?

You do realize that Real time physics are exactly animations that you can break out of...you do realize that right?

[Mos1ted]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

To me it seems that Real Time Physics in a video game should take a while to create, and by a while I'm talking 3 or 4 years. With Elite 11 being only one year removed from NBA Live 10, I think a lot of players hoping to see something fresh and fantastic will be sadly disappointed. Like my man Dawgthem stated, all we're seeing at this point is the ability to break out of animations. That's not Real Time Physics to me; that's the ability to break out of animations.

The ability to break out of animations does more harm for your game to me if your game is meant to be a simulation of a real life league and its players. If this was just some generic basketball title, then by all means break away; break out of any and all animations available in the game. But it's not; this is a game designed to mimic NBA teams, players, and basketball in general. I guess that's why I'm not high on the EA Sports brand in particular. It seems to me that their focus is always on creating a sport from their perspective rather than trying to replicate the game based how it looks and feels in real life.

When you give players the ability to break out of animations, you're essentially rewriting the laws of physics and momentum. How can you say you have Real Time Physics when real time physics aren't being respected? If I'm crossing over from my left to my right hand, I cannot cross back over from my right to my left hand until the ball touches my right hand and I position my body to allow my momentum to go back the other direction. This is why canimation > any system available up until this point. It's much easier and more efficient to mocap an actor performing these moves than trying to create the animation from scratch because an actor cannot break out of his "animations" in real life; neither should his virtual representation.

If I'm drawing a picture, I can create anything I want whether it exists in the real world or not. But if I'm drawing a portrait, I have to draw exactly what I see; not try to create something totally different than what's in front of me. That's essentially what Elite 11 appears to be; something totally different than the portrait it's trying to illustrate.

[Killa Season]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

To me it seems that Real Time Physics in a video game should take a while to create, and by a while I'm talking 3 or 4 years. With Elite 11 being only one year removed from NBA Live 10, I think a lot of players hoping to see something fresh and fantastic will be sadly disappointed. Like my man Dawgthem stated, all we're seeing at this point is the ability to break out of animations. That's not Real Time Physics to me; that's the ability to break out of animations.

The ability to break out of animations does more harm for your game to me if your game is meant to be a simulation of a real life league and its players. If this was just some generic basketball title, then by all means break away; break out of any and all animations available in the game. But it's not; this is a game designed to mimic NBA teams, players, and basketball in general. I guess that's why I'm not high on the EA Sports brand in particular. It seems to me that their focus is always on creating a sport from their perspective rather than trying to replicate the game based how it looks and feels in real life.

When you give players the ability to break out of animations, you're essentially rewriting the laws of physics and momentum. How can you say you have Real Time Physics when real time physics aren't being respected? If I'm crossing over from my left to my right hand, I cannot cross back over from my right to my left hand until the ball touches my right hand and I position my body to allow my momentum to go back the other direction. This is why canimation > any system available up until this point. It's much easier and more efficient to mocap an actor performing these moves than trying to create the animation from scratch because an actor cannot break out of his "animations" in real life; neither should his virtual representation.

If I'm drawing a picture, I can create anything I want whether it exists in the real world or not. But if I'm drawing a portrait, I have to draw exactly what I see; not try to create something totally different than what's in front of me. That's essentially what Elite 11 appears to be; something totally different than the portrait it's trying to illustrate.

Breaking out of animations has nothing to do with RTP. RTP works with the animation engine and is called by the game's AI whenever synthesised motion is required instead of canned animation.

[kingpnp]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

You do realize that Real time physics are exactly animations that you can break out of...you do realize that right?

incorrect. real time physics = no canned animations.
canned animations = animations programmed to play in certain situations. if you take that out, and add in RTP. what you have is a situation where I the. user can control everything i do with my arms and my feet. my arms seperately, my feet running/walking in different directions.

if i want to dribble with my left all the way up the court without crossing over i can. even if i move the left stick from left to right. that may make me turn my body. but that wont make me cross the ball over. like it does in previous hoop games. if u dont understand. pick up 2k10 if you have it. i have it.

start a game. dribble the ball. watch what happens even u dont press anything to cross over. if you move left to right. a canned animation tells the game to make you crossover from left to right. even though u didn't touch any trigger buttons or anything. nba live does the same thing. and thats just one example.

you cant SEEEEE real time physics. much. you can feel it when you play.

[Mos1ted]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

incorrect. real time physics = no canned animations.
canned animations = animations programmed to play in certain situations. if you take that out, and add in RTP. what you have is a situation where I the. user can control everything i do with my arms and my feet. my arms seperately, my feet running/walking in different directions.

if i want to dribble with my left all the way up the court without crossing over i can. even if i move the left stick from left to right. that may make me turn my body. but that wont make me cross the ball over. like it does in previous hoop games. if u dont understand. pick up 2k10 if you have it. i have it.

start a game. dribble the ball. watch what happens even u dont press anything to cross over. if you move left to right. a canned animation tells the game to make you crossover from left to right. even though u didn't touch any trigger buttons or anything. nba live does the same thing. and thats just one example.

you cant SEEEEE real time physics. much. you can feel it when you play.

I know what sequence you're referring to, but I don't that has to do with that sequence being canimated. I think that has to do with the fact that crossovers are mapped to the left stick in NBA 2K10. In previous editions, you had to press a trigger for the left stick to correspond with crossovers, but in 2K10 they removed the need for the trigger to perform basic crossovers and simply mapped it as going left to right or right to left when moving with the ball.

But I will agree with you in one aspect pertaining to that; they were times where if being defended, your player would crossover without any control input for you. Those sequences were highly annoying, but are said to be removed for 2K11.

But basically what it boils down to is that both games wanted to get rid of 2P's or 2 player animations. Elite went one route by implementing a RTP system; 2K went another route by adding more animation sequences that can play dynamically off each other during situations that involve 2 players. 2K's method are probably more efficient at this point because Elite's method is going to take a few years to flesh out and really shine.

[kingpnp]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

I know what sequence you're referring to, but I don't that has to do with that sequence being canimated. I think that has to do with the fact that crossovers are mapped to the left stick in NBA 2K10. In previous editions, you had to press a trigger for the left stick to correspond with crossovers, but in 2K10 they removed the need for the trigger to perform basic crossovers and simply mapped it as going left to right or right to left when moving with the ball.

But I will agree with you in one aspect pertaining to that; they were times where if being defended, your player would crossover without any control input for you. Those sequences were highly annoying, but are said to be removed for 2K11.

But basically what it boils down to is that both games wanted to get rid of 2P's or 2 player animations. Elite went one route by implementing a RTP system; 2K went another route by adding more animation sequences that can play dynamically off each other during situations that involve 2 players. 2K's method are probably more efficient at this point because Elite's method is going to take a few years to flesh out and really shine.

exactly. but heres the deal per mike wang. how 2k's game was made. they may never be able to do rtp. so if RTP turns out to be a hit for EA in lets say 2012. 2k will lose the battle and will have to finally overhaul their engine(hasn't been done). this will set them back 2 or 3 years minimum. now those are a few IFs. but this is where we are. and thats the leap EA made. cause like i said in another post. 2k got the jumped on animations vs EA. thats why EA knew they didnt want that war. EA rep"we dont want an Animations Arms Race" EA didnt want it because they would've been blown to pieces with all the Nukes 2k had stored up. sure ea has more money, but LIVE didn't have all of EA's budget to put into animations. remember Ea's baby was and still is MAdden. not live. why do you think it took so many years for live to have EA sponsored tournaments. vs madden tournys going for years and years. this is why the best choice was to go with one last overhaul move with RTP. but the beauty of RTP is that its not a NEW idea. its been tried and tested via other EA games that are now great games. so they know it works for the consumer. they also know it takes 2 to 3 years for the consumers and ea to come to a consensus and agree that the game they are playing is the best that it could be visually with RtP.

EA has done something with LIVE that hasn't been done before. like they said, they created a superteam. i've been asking for this since the ps1 live. i never understood how those guys could all be working for the same company making great strides in college football/madden like that legend mode. but the hoop game not have a mode like that. it didnt make sense. and thats just a small example. the shooting on live = tiger woods golf. the dribbling rtp hand movements = nhl/fight night controls.

finally they are using everything they have to put into the game. u have to atleast give them a 2 year window to get it right. since you've seen it work for another game. unlike them just saying "NEXT YEAR" like they usually do without any history of NEXT year meaning anything.

[JWiLL02]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

Am I the only one who thinks 2k11 has a better control scheme than Elite? I love what they've done this year.

Almost 1:1 response time with the left stick dribbling, the ability to size up in 4 different directions, signature gathers, significant advancements to the shot stick (layup modifiers that you can chain together) the new leaners which you can release early to pump fake after the step in, new dunk controls, right stick passing, the return of dynamic release points on jumpers. It just sounds phenomenal, and you can tell from the videos that it's incredibly responsive and organic. Just check out Nash from the Suns vs Heat video!

I'm sorry but Elite has NO WHERE near the depth of 2k11's control scheme. I don't find it realistic at all to have absolute 1:1 control on defense either in terms of contesting shots, to go along with what Da Czar so eloquently spoke of. Anticipation is such an integral part of basketball, that needs to be properly represented in the game.

This isn't even close for me.

[yungflo]

Re: Canned Animations Are NEVER better then RTP

I wouldn't be surprised if 2k had rtp being worked out and just isn't ready to bust it out until its mastered. lol it wouldn't surprise me at all.

[jfsolo]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

Am I the only one who thinks 2k11 has a better control scheme than Elite? I love what they've done this year.

Almost 1:1 response time with the left stick dribbling, the ability to size up in 4 different directions, signature gathers, significant advancements to the shot stick (layup modifiers that you can chain together) the new leaners which you can release early to pump fake after the step in, new dunk controls, right stick passing, the return of dynamic release points on jumpers. It just sounds phenomenal, and you can tell from the videos that it's incredibly responsive and organic. Just check out Nash from the Suns vs Heat video!

I'm sorry but Elite has NO WHERE near the depth of 2k11's control scheme. I don't find it realistic at all to have absolute 1:1 control on defense either in terms of contesting shots, to go along with what Da Czar so eloquently spoke of. Anticipation is such an integral part of basketball, that needs to be properly represented in the game.

This isn't even close for me.

I feel the same way, and I'm sure many others do to. We're just not wasting any time arguing with those who feel that Elite's implementation is the be all and end all of control schemes. Its not a productive discussion.

[2k10Fonzarelli]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

RTP isn't Euphoria/Naturalmotion physics, your not going to see different, procedurally driven, animations every single time there's contact.

It's bad that some people have convinced themselves the opposite.

The result of RTP physics will ultimately be a limited physical animation.

I think it will be interesting to find out if once a player is 'locked' in an RTP animation, will they be able to pass? will They be able to adjust their shot? (if you can't, well, argument over) .

I haven't seen any evidence of this yet, so we'll have to wait for the demo.

RTP or otherwise. . You can't argue that 2 man animations are bad if you can control yourself once in them. Again, argument over.

OP, don't you think this thread is hypocritical?
You say 'just wait. Don't judge until you play the Elite demo, until you feel it for yourself.' And thats fair, EA has promised us that much.

But you, yourself, have no idea what 2k11 'feels' like. In the face of a similar promise make by 2k dev's (breaking out of the majority of animations) you somehow quantify that RTP > anything just cause your prefered game company says so?

Why don't YOU wait for the 2k demo? and let this misguided and biased thread rest in peace.

not long ago 2+player interactions were heralded as a huge innovation in basketball games, now EA has convinced people that they're the freaking DEVIL.

Canned animations are better than RTP this year, and as long as we can break out of them at the promised rate in 2k11, the implementation of RTP on current gen consoles will be unnecessary.

The next-gen consoles though, thats when Physics engines like Euphoria will take center stage in nearly all games, including mainstream sports titles.

Euphoria, and the idea of procedurally driven physical animations in games, is way ahead of its time. People would do well to realize that.

@jwill. I'm with you on the look of the new 2k controls. it could 'feel' really good.
(Since that's the most important thing in sports gaming)

[kingpnp]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

Am I the only one who thinks 2k11 has a better control scheme than Elite? I love what they've done this year.

Almost 1:1 response time with the left stick dribbling, the ability to size up in 4 different directions, signature gathers, significant advancements to the shot stick (layup modifiers that you can chain together) the new leaners which you can release early to pump fake after the step in, new dunk controls, right stick passing, the return of dynamic release points on jumpers. It just sounds phenomenal, and you can tell from the videos that it's incredibly responsive and organic. Just check out Nash from the Suns vs Heat video!

I'm sorry but Elite has NO WHERE near the depth of 2k11's control scheme. I don't find it realistic at all to have absolute 1:1 control on defense either in terms of contesting shots, to go along with what Da Czar so eloquently spoke of. Anticipation is such an integral part of basketball, that needs to be properly represented in the game.

This isn't even close for me.

the 2k thread is that away.... go there please.

[kingpnp]

Re: Canned Animations Is NEVER better then RTP

RTP isn't Euphoria/Naturalmotion physics, your not going to see different, procedurally driven, animations every single time there's contact.

It's bad that some people have convinced themselves the opposite.

The result of RTP physics will ultimately be a limited physical animation.

I think it will be interesting to find out if once a player is 'locked' in an RTP animation, will they be able to pass? will They be able to adjust their shot? (if you can't, well, argument over) .

I haven't seen any evidence of this yet, so we'll have to wait for the demo.

RTP or otherwise. . You can't argue that 2 man animations are bad if you can control yourself once in them. Again, argument over.

OP, don't you think this thread is hypocritical?
You say 'just wait. Don't judge until you play the Elite demo, until you feel it for yourself.' And thats fair, EA has promised us that much.

But you, yourself, have no idea what 2k11 'feels' like. In the face of a similar promise make by 2k dev's (breaking out of the majority of animations) you somehow quantify that RTP > anything just cause your prefered game company says so?

Why don't YOU wait for the 2k demo? and let this misguided and biased thread rest in peace.

not long ago 2+player interactions were heralded as a huge innovation in basketball games, now EA has convinced people that they're the freaking DEVIL.

Canned animations are better than RTP this year, and as long as we can break out of them at the promised rate in 2k11, the implementation of RTP on current gen consoles will be unnecessary.

The next-gen consoles though, thats when Physics engines like Euphoria will take center stage in nearly all games, including mainstream sports titles.

Euphoria, and the idea of procedurally driven physical animations in games, is way ahead of its time. People would do well to realize that.

@jwill. I'm with you on the look of the new 2k controls. it could 'feel' really good.
(Since that's the most important thing in sports gaming)

i dont care what 2k feels like. i have 2k10. dont you get it. i know it will feel as good as it did in 2k10. or better. not worse. because they are not OVER hauling their controls based on RTP. i will be purchasing 2k11. that goes without saying. WHY? because its a SAFE bet right now while EA puts out this beta. yes im calling it a Beta. because thats what it is. next year it will be a legit V 1.78 or something. the following year will be better. I will play the EA demo like crazy. if i find out the movement is so good i dont care what the animations look like. then i will purchase ELITE also. if the RTP isn't working well enough to force me to look the other way. then i wont buy it. real simple. notice i'm not mad at EA either way. cause at the end of the day i have faith in this new direction based on how they put this team together and NHL and how it worked out in 2 or 3 years. that this ELITE thing will be Ay Okay come 2012, and will be great come 2013.