In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

[Peji911]

Ok, lets get this straight-- i HATED babcock cuz he took too long to do things, and still ended up doing stupid things..

now, with that being said, lets look at the bad that he did...

BAD:
-hire o'neal as coach--still, not thaaaat bad b/c he came from a winning porgram and cheap
-hired mitchell- may have run carter out of town
-araujo--to me, the biggest problem with the babcock era

GOOD:
-our future, chris bosh
-villanueva--everybody knocked him, yet this pick was golden
-some people are gonna reem on me for this, buuuut, lets look at the carter trade-- we get mourning, e. williams, a. williams, and two first rounders-sure, thats a bad deal but lets look at it closer
hmm, lets check this out closer:
-mourning = salary cap space cuz of the buyout
-e. williams =part of the deal that brought nesterovic
-a. williams = a second round pic from the hornets
-1st rounder = i think this was the joey graham pick
-2nd 1st rounder = allowed us to trade away the huge contract of jalen rose, and thus bringing us good cap space

in essence, a pretty good era as we get a future top 10player in the league; aloooot of cap space; villanueva and graham, and no more carter who was playing poorly ON PURPOSE

Now, lets look at the short reign of Colangelo

-he gets the FIRST OVERALL because of a bad season that happened under BABCOCK---soooo, in essence babcock earned this pick but colangelo got to use it

sooo, what does colangelo do after taking over...

hmm..he trades for nestorovic who still has quite a bit left on a hefty contract (when he could have had someone like muhammed, who is better and a free agent and could play for less)... he gives up the red rocket who was a raptor favourite, a humble man who raptors fans luved...

and more importantly, he wastes a 1st overall pick... how?
-teams wanted it... portland wanted morrison badly and were offering a good deal for him (could have brought ratliff over according to a rumour), so what does he do? he wastes the pick on a guy who only averaged 12 pts in the friggin italian league... and by wastes i say this... NO ONE else wanted him according to reports, so WHY would f#ckin colangelo not just trade the damn pick to someone like portland, fill in the centre need, fill in a point guard need, ANNNND draft the same f#ckin that.... what does this all mean? colanagelo is as much of a tool as babcock, and so far, babcock has done MUCH more for the raptors, in obviously more time, BUT it will be colangelo who benefits from babcock's dealings (alotta space, bosh, villanueva, etc)... that really pisses me off cuz babcock tried building the team ala ricciardi for the jays, but no patience with him... come on colangelo, the nesterovic deal is ********, and not taking advantage of portland wanting ron jeremy jr and getting more assets is ridiculous

ppl say hes sooo good cuz of phoenix and blah blah but when he took over some assets were already there, he really lucked out with nash, come on now, who would have thought he would have been mvo x2, had ALOT of luck in his draft picks (nash, marion, stoudemire, etc)... but no one looks at the bad... he had the best pg in the game and traded him to NJ for a cancer in marbury; the team has been in salary cap hell for a bit and should be for a while while not being able to win a championship cuz u need a solid centre to win a 'ship these days and they have grant, burke, sometimes stoudemire, etc)....

at this moment to me:

colangelo << babcock

[Pointguard]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

What year did Babcock take over?

[Peji911]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

What year did Babcock take over?

either 2003 or 2004... i think the offseason bosh was drafted.... haha, i see u searching all the good and bad PG.. haha


but come on... u can get a PG, C AND the damn player you want at #1 and you dont make the trade? that is soooo stupid OMG... its very simple... 2 players plus the pic you want makes the deal a 3 for 0 deal... fak, omg

EDIT: i have a friend in italy visiting family and im talkin to him on msn and he said the rumour is that italy (whoever that is) offered the raptors 'incentives' to take the italian 1st overall.... hmm, wonder what these 'incentives' could be... seeing whats happening in Serie A, could be anything from drugs, money, mafia hits, who knows... either way, VC better watch his step.. haha

[tenth]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

I disagree.

Bosh was a virtual lock at #4. He had been there in all the mock drafts dating back to months before the draft. There had been small talk about TJ Ford, but most of it centred on Bosh, and I bet a large majority of GMs would have gone with Bosh. Drafting Bosh at 4 is WAAAY less impressive then Collangelo picking Marion, Nash, and Stoudemire at picks 9+, not to mention doing a draft day deal for Barbosa when he was a very late 1st.

Villanueva ended up being a good pick, but it was pretty frightening when Babcock was talking about using him at the 5 after the draft. Was Babcock's plan to use him as a banger down low?

Mourning's contract buyout created ~1M in salary space this season, and his 4M will be off the books after the year. That's not all that huge, but as you said the 2nd 1st rounder played a small part in getting the cap space from the Rose deal this year. Still, for our disgruntled superstar, we got us part of Nesterovic, Joey Graham, and some cap space in a fairly weak free agent market. Crazy Ron Artest punched a fan, requested time off playing to work on his rap career, and quit with even less integrity than Vince, and they still managed Peja.

Knocking Collangelo is a little unfair. He went through a rough patch with Marbury, but in each of the last 2 seasons he assembled championship contending teams full of guys that experts had pegged finishing in the 6-10 range in the West. Each of those years they were among the final 4 teams remaining the playoffs, and finished better than 26 others. Babcock's biggest credit is drafting a guy who was a virtual lock at #4.

You're right Collangelo had no part in getting the 1st overall pick, but I also wouldn't knock him for anything he's done yet. Building a team is neither quick or easy. I need to wait a while to pass judgment on how he handles the team, at the very least until we see what happens this offseason.

[Vince]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

using luck as your argument is lame.

LMAO at you saying Babz is better.

[Peji911]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

You're right Collangelo had no part in getting the 1st overall pick, but I also wouldn't knock him for anything he's done yet. Building a team is neither quick or easy. I need to wait a while to pass judgment on how he handles the team, at the very least until we see what happens this offseason, before I look at his performance too critically.

SO if ur the GM and know u can get bargani at possibly even 7 cuz no one really wanted him and had the chance to get a pg, c and bargani, or even if its just a player and bargani, u wouldnt pull the trigger? come on now, thats babcock-ish man...

i do like some points u do make tho, and i respect vince's views too, BUT, when charlie was drafted last yr we ALL mocked babcock and everything b/c of pretty much the araujo pick being a bust, but cuz colangelo has been solid, he makes a bonehead move and everything is good? come on guys, thats ridiculous... he WAS good at phoenix, so far with bargani at #1 and the nesterovic deal, colangelo is just another bird at GM

[tenth]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

damn, why couldn't you have posted 5 minutes earlier so I didn't have to write that essay, lol.

[goh]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

I don't like the Bargnani pick but Babcock probably would've traded the pick for a sandwich and given it to Bosh to try and get him to re-sign. The FA money is apprently going to Jorge something or other,he used to be Caulderon's teammate and Jay Williams.

[tenth]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

SO if ur the GM and know u can get bargani at possibly even 7 cuz no one really wanted him and had the chance to get a pg, c and bargani, or even if its just a player and bargani, u wouldnt pull the trigger? come on now, thats babcock-ish man...

i do like some points u do make tho, and i respect vince's views too, BUT, when charlie was drafted last yr we ALL mocked babcock and everything b/c of pretty much the araujo pick being a bust, but cuz colangelo has been solid, he makes a bonehead move and everything is good? come on guys, thats ridiculous... he WAS good at phoenix, so far with bargani at #1 and the nesterovic deal, colangelo is just another bird at GM

We have no idea if this is a boneheaded move or not, yet. I bet the Bucks thought they were getting a hell of a deal when they picked up cash and Tractor Traylor for some unproven German. Like Collangello has said, neither the Dirk or euro bust comparisons are fair to him. Let him become his own player and see what happens.

BTW, in this week's SI, they quoted 2 executives, one in the East and one in the West, who anonymously stated that Bargnani was the best talent in the draft. For all I know the Eastern exec could have been Collangelo, but as bizarre as last night's draft was (O'Bryant at 9? that dude from Senegal at #10?) who knows if Andrea would be there at 7, or even 5. We couldn't get the talent to move down, so might as well take our first choice.

[RockinDaMike]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

Why even risk that other teams might pick him up. This was probably the craziest draft, with crazy trades so there wasn't a lock on anyone really. Who knows what someone would do with the first pick if they had it. Plus the summer moves have just begun and you have no idea what Colangelo has up his sleeve with possible moves he's thinking of.

You know what Phoenix thought when we drafted Marion.... and when we drafted Amare....everyone was puzzled by who these guys were and NO ONE knew these guys potential like Colangelo. Pretty much pissed off like you are now. But after they panned out, he brought in Nash, two time MVP. Dude he's a genius in my opinion for trading Joe Johnson for Diaw and two first round picks!! Brought in Raja, James Jones....this guy knows what he's doing man.

I'm actually in envy that you have him and hope you appreciate what he can do in stuggling franchise. Do you guys remember when Phoenix was the worst team in the league like 4 or 5 years ago? Nice turn around i think and i guarantee he's gonna do the same in Toronto.

[Pointguard]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

Ehhh, I dont think its fair to call Chris Bosh a "lucky" pick. Botton line is he made the right pick. But you cant forgive him for draft Araju over Ansdre Iguodala and the VC trade was just a bad move by him...

[tenth]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

I don't think anybody called Bosh a lucky pick. I called him a virtual lock at #4, a pick nearly any GM would have made. Riley even said he was going to take Bosh if by chance he slipped to 5.

[SPTO]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

I didn't like Babs at all. He didn't instill any confidence to the fans, had horrible media relations, (almost all the media folks who dealt with him said very bad things after he left) and he made terrible moves.

The Villaneuva pick was his best move and quite frankly it was the luckiest move he ever made. The Carter trade did do a lot of good for the Raptors in the long term it was still botched up by Babcock's ineptitude in explaining the positives of the deal.

Colangelo is a completely different GM. He has the confidence of the fans and media alike, has credibility in the league, is very good with the media, made a trade for a big man in Rasho that brings some size and rebounding while not costing the team that much as the Spurs will be eating up most of his contract.

Yes we don't know how Bargnani will do but considering the immense scouting that Colangelo has done I have confidence in the pick.

[goh]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

I don't think anybody called Bosh a lucky pick. I called him a virtual lock at #4, a pick nearly any GM would have made. Riley even said he was going to take Bosh if by chance he slipped to 5.

If that draft was done over he'd still be #4.

I don't feel the Raps needed size,needed gaurds. Mike James,Alvin Williams,Jose Caulderon and Andre Barrett are the only ones right now and that's not good.

[yucatan]

Re: In terms of drafting, how is Colangelo better than Babcock?

Babcock had nothing to do with the Bosh pick or the hiring of Kevin O'Neill. The Bosh pick and O'Neill hiring were made by Glen Grunwald who held on to the pick despite overtures from New York and Seattle for packages centering around Latrell Spreewell and Vladimir Radmanovic.