Dawn of a new era?

[GSW]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

i dont see how run and gun teams are just now appearing, and i dont see how run and gun teams are taking over. There have been a lot of successful run and gun teams in the past ten years, but none of them have been able to beat the Spurs or Pistons of the league and win a championship.

as far as the current run and gun teams that are causing so much buzz making people write that those types of teams are going to "take over the league"...the Warriors got a good matchup and are obviously killing Nellie's former team, but watch what happens when the Warriors match up with JVG and the Rockets or Sloan and the Jazz in the second round...and you see how the Nuggets' runnin and gunnin is workin against the Spurs.

Of course, the Suns have the best chance, but overall the current run and gun Suns team of the past 3 seasons isnt much better and hasnt done more than the Nellie run and gun Mavs team for example that won a lot of games but wasnt able to beat the "half court, defensive oriented" championship caliber Spurs or Lakers and was criticized as a paper tiger (of course, these non run and gun Mavs are probably a paper tiger again, but that is a different thread). If the Suns can beat the Spurs this year, then it will be a different story as far as a run and gun team not being such a paper tiger. but until that happens and they actually get over that hump, i dont see how people can say they are taking over the league.

I think, and i may be wrong but...

I think people just find this brand of basketball alot more exciting then say the Spurs, or the Pistons.

Now, im a die hard basketball fan so i can get the same enjoyment out of watching a 7 game Pistons Spurs series, but for the most part people liek myself and others who are hardcoe hoop heads are few and far between.

The casual fan wants to see hgihlights, run and gun, dunks nifty passes etc etc... and i think thats what sterns trying to bring to the fore front.

Once you get the casual people back involved in the nba then there knoledge for the game can grow from there..

just an opinion

HHB

[ZB9]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

I think, and i may be wrong but...

I think people just find this brand of basketball alot more exciting then say the Spurs, or the Pistons.

Now, im a die hard basketball fan so i can get the same enjoyment out of watching a 7 game Pistons Spurs series, but for the most part people liek myself and others who are hardcoe hoop heads are few and far between.

The casual fan wants to see hgihlights, run and gun, dunks nifty passes etc etc... and i think thats what sterns trying to bring to the fore front.

Once you get the casual people back involved in the nba then there knoledge for the game can grow from there..

just an opinion

HHB

yea good point imo. i can see that

i wish that would have been the case about 6 years ago.

[Dice]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

and i guess YOU havent seen Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash, Kobe, T-mac, Rip Hamilton, (and since you put a center in a jumpshooting debate ill put one too.) Shaq.and a host of other players

Just Face the facts, Your'e wrong.

but dont feel too bad man, everyone puts their foot in thier own mouth sometimes.

Fact of the matter is percentages are NOT down, and 'back in the day' players were not all that much better shooters percentage wise then guys now. So please get off that. and stop using HOF legend players as exmaples because i can do the same thign and give you the same results.

Hallelujah Holla back

Edit:
I was so busy proving you wrong i seemed to look over a little nugget in your comments.


Wow.

OK. Let get the record straight. I'm going to list the NBA field goal percentage league averages for each season since 1986 and let's see how shooting has gone:
1986 - .487
1987 - .480
1988 - .480
1989 - .477
1990 - .476
1991 - .474
1992 - .472
1993 - .473
1994 - .466
1995 - .466
1996 - .462
1997 - .455
1998 - .450
1999 - .437
2000 - .449
2001 - .443
2002 - .445
2003 - .442
2004 - .439
2005 - .447
2006 - .454
2007 - .458
Now I will say this, league shooting has gone up in the last two years BUT you go from shooting 48 percent to 46 percent? You might think it's a small difference but your talking about league average. But facts are facts and see for yourself, league average is down.

And as far as the players that you mentioned(Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash, Kobe, T-mac, Rip Hamilton) let's pit them with their counterparts of yesteryear. With this I'll try to compare guys who's game was similar and who's PPG were close to their current counterpart:
Micheal Redd vs Rolando Blackman
Redd's career PPG: 20.1
Blackman's career PPG: 18.1
Redd's career FG%: .453
Blackman's career FG%: .493

Peja Stojakovic vs Kiki Vandeweghe
Stojakovic's career PPG: 18.4
Vandeweghe's career PPG:19.7
Stojakovic's career FG%: .460
Vandeweghe's career FG% .525

Steve Nash vs John Stockton
Nash's career PPG: 14.0
Stockton's career PPG:13.1
Nash's career FG%: .483
Stockton's career FG% .515

Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan I hate this one because everyone knows who's the better shooter in this comparison, but that's a whole another thread
Bryant's career PPG: 24.6
Jordans's career PPG:30.1
Bryant's career FG%: .453
Jordan's career FG% .497

Tracy McGrady vs Dominique Wilkins
McGrady's career PPG: 22.4
Wilkins career PPG: 24.8
McGrady's career FG%:.439
Wilkins career FG%: .461

Richard Hamilton vs Reggie Miller
Hamilton's career PPG: 17.9
Miller career PPG: 18.2
Hamilton's career FG%:.451
Miller career FG%: .471

Notice the underline on the FG%. Call me a stat freak all you want BUT the numbers don't lie. Holla back to me on the centers when you explain this one.

[ZB9]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

OK. Let get the record straight. I'm going to list the NBA field goal percentage league averages for each season since 1986 and let's see how shooting has gone:
1986 - .487
1987 - .480
1988 - .480
1989 - .477
1990 - .476
1991 - .474
1992 - .472
1993 - .473
1994 - .466
1995 - .466
1996 - .462
1997 - .455
1998 - .450
1999 - .437
2000 - .449
2001 - .443
2002 - .445
2003 - .442
2004 - .439
2005 - .447
2006 - .454
2007 - .458
Now I will say this, league shooting has gone up in the last two years BUT you go from shooting 48 percent to 46 percent? You might think it's a small difference but your talking about league average. But facts are facts and see for yourself, league average is down.

And as far as the players that you mentioned(Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash, Kobe, T-mac, Rip Hamilton) let's pit them with their counterparts of yesteryear. With this I'll try to compare guys who's game was similar and who's PPG were close to their current counterpart:
Micheal Redd vs Rolando Blackman
Redd's career PPG: 20.1
Blackman's career PPG: 18.1
Redd's career FG%: .453
Blackman's career FG%: .493

Peja Stojakovic vs Kiki Vandeweghe
Stojakovic's career PPG: 18.4
Vandeweghe's career PPG:19.7
Stojakovic's career FG%: .460
Vandeweghe's career FG% .525

Steve Nash vs John Stockton
Nash's career PPG: 14.0
Stockton's career PPG:13.1
Nash's career FG%: .483
Stockton's career FG% .515

Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan I hate this one because everyone knows who's the better shooter in this comparison, but that's a whole another thread
Bryant's career PPG: 24.6
Jordans's career PPG:30.1
Bryant's career FG%: .453
Jordan's career FG% .497

Tracy McGrady vs Dominique Wilkins
McGrady's career PPG: 22.4
Wilkins career PPG: 24.8
McGrady's career FG%:.439
Wilkins career FG%: .461

Richard Hamilton vs Reggie Miller
Hamilton's career PPG: 17.9
Miller career PPG: 18.2
Hamilton's career FG%:.451
Miller career FG%: .471

Notice the underline on the FG%. Call me a stat freak all you want BUT the numbers don't lie. Holla back to me on the centers when you explain this one.

haha Peja cant compare with Kiki V!!

[Dice]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

I think his point was even guys like Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson would struggle today with the rules. Back in the day, you either had to commit all out to a double team or watch some helpless bum get worked. MUCH different game than today where teams defensive rotations are so advanced and teams can basically play a modified version of triangle-2 on one player.

But rules were different where physical play was much more accepted than it is now. Now you can't hand check and you didn't have the various flagrant foul rules that you have now. Roughhouse play was in full effect BUT guys like Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson still got their points.

[roadman]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

Like Dice, I'm not going to let my research go for nothing.

Stats don't lie.

I went back and compared 85-86 and 2005-06 seasons with the first 10 teams listed alphabetically.

In 85-86, the average for the first 10 teams was 49% and the average for the 2005-06 season teams was 45%.

That's a heck of a margin.

Comparing the teams, not one team stayed at the same % or increased their shooting % from 85-86 to 05-06.

I think that's pretty telling.

[GSW]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

Just so you know. im not arguing just for the sake of arguing.

But it ihnk you missed my original point

about the Uptempo game.

and really soem of those comparisons are stretches.

Stockton HOF, Nash not so much
Reggie Miller HOF, Hamilton not so much
Kobe and mike both HOF's but mike FG % was so high because most of hsi abskets came in the paint where as kobe shoots alot of perimiter shots/threes

Tmac/Nique... thats not even close IMO

Again... Teams 'back in the day' shot better because the game was more uptempo, lots of fast breaks and high percentage shots... not because they were overall indiviually way better shooters.

[GSW]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

Like Dice, I'm not going to let my research go for nothing.

Stats don't lie.

I went back and compared 85-86 and 2005-06 seasons with the first 10 teams listed alphabetically.

In 85-86, the average for the first 10 teams was 49% and the average for the 2005-06 season teams was 45%.

That's a heck of a margin.

Comparing the teams, not one team stayed at the same % or increased their shooting % from 85-86 to 05-06.

I think that's pretty telling.

Its because those teams were uptempo teams back in the 80's look at the game and those teams now and what style of basketball they play...

[23]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

All teams now care about are dunks and 3pointers.

Most players in the league had great midrange jumpers back in that day from 1-12.

The rule changes are permitting players to score more now and they are still less efficient with the exception of the top of the pack.

Tony Parker lead the league in scoring in the paint last season. That would never happen under the old rules.

[roadman]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

Its because those teams were uptempo teams back in the 80's look at the game and those teams now and what style of basketball they play...

The Bucks, Bulls and Cavs were not running teams in the 80's. They ran when they could, but the Bulls had the triangle offense going. The Pistons ran when they could, but they had the plodder Laimbeer running down the court.

Sure, you had Showtime and Dominque, and Dr. J, but based on the games I saw in person in the central division at the time, I wouldn't say it was uptempo hoops.

Anyway, I was responding to this paragraph or sentence when you said that shooting percentages haven't went down any.


Fact of the matter is percentages are NOT down, and 'back in the day' players were not all that much better shooters percentage wise then guys now. So please get off that. and stop using HOF legend players as exmaples because i can do the same thign and give you the same results.

[Dice]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

The rule changes are permitting players to score more now and they are still less efficient with the exception of the top of the pack.

Co-sign

[Rocky]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

But rules were different where physical play was much more accepted than it is now. Now you can't hand check and you didn't have the various flagrant foul rules that you have now. Roughhouse play was in full effect BUT guys like Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson still got their points.

I think you're overrating that a little bit. Players are far quicker, longer, and athletic than now. I mean you got Branden Wright who's gonna be the #3 pick in the draft and his best attribute is that he's "long"......and players like that still have a hard time guarding the Kobe's, T-Mac's, and Carter's. Dream didn't have to deal with the double teams from all angles and all ends of the court and he didn't have to deal with these pseudo zones. I'm not saying he wouldn't be dominant in the L today, but he would be stoppable.

And I think you're stats are skewed a bit. It's extremely unfair to compare career averages to HS guys who sat on the bench.

[Dice]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

I think you're overrating that a little bit. Players are far quicker, longer, and athletic than now. I mean you got Branden Wright who's gonna be the #3 pick in the draft and his best attribute is that he's "long"......and players like that still have a hard time guarding the Kobe's, T-Mac's, and Carter's. Dream didn't have to deal with the double teams from all angles and all ends of the court and he didn't have to deal with these pseudo zones. I'm not saying he wouldn't be dominant in the L today, but he would be stoppable.

And I think you're stats are skewed a bit. It's extremely unfair to compare career averages to HS guys who sat on the bench.

Hand checking was a big advantage. When you can imped a players progress to the basket by allowing your defender to use his hand(or forearm) on your body then that limits his drive to the hoop and gives the defender the upper hand.

As far as double teaming, more teams had to be more creative in double teaming back then because of the illegal defense rule. The double team angles back then were very important because a guy coming to double had to make sure he'd come from an angle where the ball handler couldn't see him. Now a days, you can come at the ball handler at any angle BUT him seeing you doesn't matter because now the defender can go half way and stop to confuse the ball handler. Back then defenders didn't have that option.

And I'm glad you brought up the Dream and zoning because one of the teams he had major problems with during his career was the Supersonics with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp. If you saw those games the Sonics were an athletic team and the double teams came so fast that it confused him at times. Olajuwon would normally be patient and hit the open shooter with his passing. But the SOnics didn't give him time to be patient. They trapped so much back then that they played somewhat of a pseudo zone.

[Rocky]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

Hand checking was a big advantage. When you can imped a players progress to the basket by allowing your defender to use his hand(or forearm) on your body then that limits his drive to the hoop and gives the defender the upper hand.

As far as double teaming, more teams had to be more creative in double teaming back then because of the illegal defense rule. The double team angles back then were very important because a guy coming to double had to make sure he'd come from an angle where the ball handler couldn't see him. Now a days, you can come at the ball handler at any angle BUT him seeing you doesn't matter because now the defender can go half way and stop to confuse the ball handler. Back then defenders didn't have that option.

And I'm glad you brought up the Dream and zoning because one of the teams he had major problems with during his career was the Supersonics with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp. If you saw those games the Sonics were an athletic team and the double teams came so fast that it confused him at times. Olajuwon would normally be patient and hit the open shooter with his passing. But the SOnics didn't give him time to be patient. They trapped so much back then that they played somewhat of a pseudo zone.

I think you are making my points for me lol. You said it was more difficult to double team back then which I would argue that may have been true, but today's doubles are more complex and effective. That's why the Suns have been so sucessful.....it's really hard to key in on one player when you got 5 skilled guys out there. Ball movement and good shooting can beat that pretty easily. However, teams that have one guy doing all the work and others just watching and not knocking down shots get killed, ie Lakers, Rockets, sometimes Cleveland, and now Dallas.

[Sarah]

Re: Dawn of a new era?

Again... Teams 'back in the day' shot better because the game was more uptempo, lots of fast breaks and high percentage shots... not because they were overall indiviually way better shooters.

Yeah, but the defense are also a lot tougher back in the days especially in the paint where the big guys can actually play defense unlike the big guys of this new NBA. Heck After Jordan went out because of a major injury back between somewhere 87 and 89, he doesn't go in the paint that much and instead develop his mid-range game. People like the bad boys of DET will murder you in the paint back in the days.