Zeke or Stockton?

[DC]

Neil Payne of Basketball-Reference doesn't like to see people ranking Isiah Thomas ahead of John Stockton on the all-time list of great point guards: "The only facets of the game where Isiah was superior to Stockton were his shot-creating ability (Thomas did take on 26.5% of Detroit's possessions while on the court) and his rebounding (Thomas' 5.3 career rebound rate is marginally better than Stockton's 5.0), but in every other area -- TS%, assist ratio, steal rate, etc. -- Stockton kills Isiah in terms of regular-season numbers. Oh, but what about the playoffs? After all, that's where Isiah really made his money (and Stockton always failed)& right? Um, not quite. Stockton had 21.2 career playoff Win Shares; Thomas had 12.2. Stockton's career playoff WS/3K rate: 9.94; Thomas' rate: 8.68. Turns out that in the playoffs, it's the same story as above: Isiah is superior in shot-creation and rebounding, but fails to outpace Stockton on the shooting, passing, and defensive fronts. So why do people almost universally consider Thomas to be better than Stockton when they give their all-time point guard rankings? Stockton was more durable, more consistent, a better pure PG, more productive (both cumulatively and on a per-minute basis), and was even better in the playoffs, where Stock played a remarkable 182 career games. It is true that the Jazz never won an NBA crown with Stockton at the helm. It is also true that Isiah led Detroit to 2 rings. But hey, Robert Horry has 7 career rings, and no one is suggesting he's better than Karl Malone. In other words, in light of the overwhelming evidence I've laid out above, isn't it about time we reconsider the Stockton-Thomas debate?"

Discuss. I know personally all of the "brothers" that I know want to rank Zeke above Stockton but I never bought into that idea either.

Discuss.

[HHHRVD55]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Stockton's the better pure point guard. I don't think anybody can debate that. But, Isiah was probably the better scoring point guard. Overall, I'm taking Stockton any day of the week, even in the playoffs. I may be a little biased with Stockton being my all-time favorite player, but I've never been able to see how people think that Thomas is better then Stockton.

And if you want to bring up that Zeke has two rings and Stockton has none, look at it this way. When Zeke was in his prime, he went up against a Jordan who wasn't in his prime and he beat him. When Jordan was in his prime, he beat Zeke. When Stockton went to the Finals, he had to deal with a Bulls team that knew how to win, had three Superstars, and a HOF coach, something that Zeke didn't have to go up against when he went to the Finals.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

There are few things I hate more than when someone compares the leader of a team to a role player when talking rings. Isiah lead Detroit to their rings, and beat the best of the best in a true golden era of NBA ball. Stockton played with the 2nd best power forward of all time for almost 20 years and couldn't get it done.

Zeke lead his team to beat Dr. J, Bird, Jordan, Magic, Barkley and all of their HoF teammates. Now years after its all over, people want to dig up numbers and act like it's different than what it was.

And people say two rings as if they were only hot for those two years. Detroit was one of the dangerous teams in the league, and for two years they were the best of the best. Zeke dominated in his time in the league.

I watched TONS of Utah. Come on.

[DC]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

There are few things I hate more than when someone compares the leader of a team to a role player when talking rings.

Man you don't know how many faces I wanted to bash when people say foolishness like that.

"If it is based on rings I guess Steve Kerr is better than Jason Kidd" -

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Stockton's the better pure point guard. I don't think anybody can debate that. But, Isiah was probably the better scoring point guard. Overall, I'm taking Stockton any day of the week, even in the playoffs. I may be a little biased with Stockton being my all-time favorite player, but I've never been able to see how people think that Thomas is better then Stockton.

And if you want to bring up that Zeke has two rings and Stockton has none, look at it this way. When Zeke was in his prime, he went up against a Jordan who wasn't in his prime and he beat him. When Jordan was in his prime, he beat Zeke. When Stockton went to the Finals, he had to deal with a Bulls team that knew how to win, had three Superstars, and a HOF coach, something that Zeke didn't have to go up against when he went to the Finals.

Detroit pushed the Lakers (HoF coach, 3 stars, great roleplayers) WAY closer to the brink. They lost by 3 points in game 7. Deciding factors? Zeke was injured.

Man you don't know how many faces I wanted to bash when people say foolishness like that.

"If it is based on rings I guess Steve Kerr is better than Jason Kidd" -

That's one of the weakest fall back BS arguments in all of sports discussion. That and generational bias.

[SPTO]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

I'd have to give the nod to Stockton it's just that Thomas had more memorable games. Stockton's problem is that he played in a system that focused more on the team aspect and the synergy of the pick and roll thus he never really stood out in terms of highlight reel moments.

Stockton is also far more closely tied to Malone then say, Thomas to Dumars in that Malone was the beneficiary of Stockton's great passing a good 90% of the time. Stockton was also a quiet guy. He didn't really demand a lot of attention whereas Thomas even in his playing days got tons of it. It hurts Stockton's cause that he played way out west whereas Thomas played his entire career in the east.

Personally Stockton is in the top 3 PGs of all time IMO.

[Jukeman]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

I'd take Johnny short shorts but I have a pet peeve for scoring PG ironically(AI is my fav player)

[DC]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Yea I seem like PREFER pure points over scoring points. So that just means I LIKE Stockton more than I liked Zeke's game

[bigeastbumrush]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Isaiah.

Stockton played with arguably the best or second best PF in NBA history (the same guy that ironically split Isaiah's wig...lol). Where Isaiah pretty much put the team on his back for his championships.

[SPTO]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Isaiah.

Stockton played with arguably the best or second best PF in NBA history (the same guy that ironically split Isaiah's wig...lol). Where Isaiah pretty much put the team on his back for his championships.

Maybe the first championship but even so I think Dumars was counted on just a bit more then Zeke IMO. Also those Pistons teams had a pretty deep bench so it wasn't like Thomas was a one man show like say, Iverson was when he guided the 76ers to the NBA Championship series.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Isaiah singlehandedly got Detroit into a 7th game vs the Lakers on one leg in the 2nd half.

End of discussion

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Just because you score a lot doesn't mean you're not a pure PG.

[bigeastbumrush]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Maybe the first championship but even so I think Dumars was counted on just a bit more then Zeke IMO. Also those Pistons teams had a pretty deep bench so it wasn't like Thomas was a one man show like say, Iverson was when he guided the 76ers to the NBA Championship series.

Deep bench? The East was leagues tougher than the Western Conference back then.

[SPTO]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

Isaiah singlehandedly got Detroit into a 7th game vs the Lakers on a broken leg in the 2nd half.

End of discussion

That makes him better? I admit that was one of the greatest halfs of basketball i've ever seen. If it wasn't for Jordan's flu game that game would be viewed as the gutsiest performance in NBA history.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Zeke or Stockton?

That makes him better? I admit that was one of the greatest halfs of basketball i've ever seen. If it wasn't for Jordan's flu game that game would be viewed as the gutsiest performance in NBA history.

Thomas could set his teammates up. But when they faltered, he could take the game over.


When was John Stockton ever the best player on the court?