In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

[Bornindamecca]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

I beg forgiveness in advance for somewhat getting away from your original question.

But, I don't think you can really look back into the past and point out certain point guards that were able to succeed despite not being the quickest/fastest players in the game.

I think todays game and todays players are different than what was in place back then.

Today, the best point guards are generally the quicker/faster guards. Just look at the future of the point guard position in the NBA. You have guys like CP3, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, Rajon Rondo, and Derrick Rose that are the leading wave of top tier point guards.

Not only that, but new guys coming in like Ty Lawson, Brandon Jennings, and Johnny Flynn who are likely to do some serious damage in the league.

In today's game, speed kills. The ability to beat a defenses rotations, getting to a spot before the defense can react is big and is a constant threat that has to be accounted for.

If you look at that list you put up, only one guy ranks up there with the all time great PGs right now. Even in today's game, bigger and stronger guards AND fast guards are among the top in the league. There have always been fast guards in the league, but elite point guards are not always fast guards. Right now, the elite point guards aren't the fastest guards.

In the current crop of PGs, there are more fast guys that bigger guys, so of course there are more fast guys to talk about. But if you look at the bigger guys that are in the league at the PG position, you can see that they are effective as well. The problem is, once you get over 6'3", a lot of these guys become tweeners, or play shooting guard in college. As it is, the top five guards in the league aren't all fast guards, and I can't think of a time where that was ever true.

Even among the younger guys, Evans, Curry, Rubio(projected) and Holiday are bigger and slower, but have already proven to be as effective as the faster guys in their class, or are as valued as the faster guys in the class.

So at the end of the day, speed AND size/strength can kill at the position, as long as you get it done. It goes both ways. Sometimes PGs get knocked for not having enough size or strength, but it's really a matter of whether or not that hinders their effectiveness. It's not something you can just slap on a scouting report and expect to have it make sense in the league.


Re: the Ball Handling discussion
Stumble kind of covered it, but I was talking about the literal skill of ball handling. Whether or not a guy has turnovers can be a myriad of factors including offensive system, team tempo etc.. Steve Nash is one of he best, most dexterous ball handlers in the game. He's got the ball on a string as much as anyone ever has.

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

This is a good *** topic.

[HMcCoy]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

This is a tough one B. So much of being a great PG is predicated on smarts and leadership..things you want left out.

Also, it's tough to really analyze passing without considering vision and IQ. How many real "wizards" are out there now? Nash...Kidd...CP....??? At this level, anyone at the position is going to have at least moderate passing skills, almost any NBA PG can occcasionally thread a beauty through traffic and complete chest, bounces and lobs on time and on target. But getting to know where everyone likes to receive it, seeing opportunities and making the right decision are far more important than the actual ability, so in sticking with your format, B, I'd drop actual passing ability a bit, as there are only a couple standout passers in the L.

1. Quicks with the ball. Not just speed or quickness itself...as mentioned, you don't have to possess blazing fast footspeed to be quick with the pill ala Nash, Jose Calderone or Dre Miller. This could be considered ballhandling, but then, you can have slick handles without the speed to do anything with it. Boobie Gibson can scoot around like a globetrotter with the rock, but isn't quick enough to get more than a half step on the defense. Lots of guys can pound it, but the greats can pound it while moving quickly to open space without dribbling it off a leg, and that is definitely a skill. You will see plenty of good PG's who can't shoot...you won't find many who can't break down a D. Even guys who aren't really fast are at least quick for their size and strength ala D-Will and Chauncey. Magic was Tony Parker with the rock considering who would be guarding him on most nights.

Basically, the ability to get to any spot on the floor, at any time is the common thread between all great PG's, IMO, and that usually starts with quickness. As Borm mentioned, it can also be a combination of attributes, but getting from A to B *fast* is a huge weapon.

2. Ability to make plays in traffic, including finishing or dumping off. Some PG's can cram it in the open floor, or make shots in a one on one situation...but can't do diddly with the rock in a packed lane. Even if you can't dunk or make contested layups, you have to be able to hit floaters and short pullups at the basket or all the dribbling and pentration in the world is meaningless. He also has to be able to keep it away from lots of hands and not be sloppy with interior passes. Lead guards who are no threat in the lane can't collapse the defense, are turnover prone in the traffic, and kill the draw and kick game. Hello Boobie once again.

3. Defense. Offense can come and go, but if your PG can't defend, your team better be lights out on their rotations, you'd better have an intimidator behind you, or you better be in a D'Antoni system that can put up huge scoring numbers every single night. A bad defensive PG can't stop or even slow down the opponents gameplan, and basically puts a ton of pressure on everyone else on D.

4. Shooting.

5. Passing ability.

6. Rebounding.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

Great points about defense, Mac. It's interesting that some of the responses mirror the specialties, or in some cases, deficiencies of people's favorite teams.

I would disagree with what you're saying regarding passing though. This is usually the element that holds back tweeners like Jerryd Bayless, or Monta Ellis.

With all basketball skills, there is an IQ element, but the fundamental skill of great passing isn't spoken about as much as it should be. Let's throw the great passers out of the window, and just look at "good" to "bad" range of PGs.

You look at a guy like Andre Miller, Tinsley, Duhon, Felton, or even better guards, but not great passers like Parker and Fisher, and you can see the gap in fundamental passing skill.

I've stated a few before, but just to reiterate. You have:

Passing when the recipient is on the move.
Passing when the passer is on the move.
Passing with either hand.
Passing to the general pocket of a shooter.
Passing to the specific place that specific shooters like to have it.
Passing while well defended.
Passing off of the pick and roll.
Passing to the proper hand on the post up over defense.
Passing off of the look away.

If you take the combinations of the above, and mix and match them together, you get a whole lot of fundamental passes that everyone is not great at, and some guys aren't even good at. Some people simply can't make those plays. The problem is, to the naked eye a lot of these plays don't look outstanding. You just get a general sense of an offense that runs better.

Shooting and rebounding are easier skills to equate, because there is a clear success and fail rate. But passing lives more in the gray area, so I think the subtleties get overlooked.

[HMcCoy]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

Great points about defense, Mac. It's interesting that some of the responses mirror the specialties, or in some cases, deficiencies of people's favorite teams.

I would disagree with what you're saying regarding passing though. This is usually the element that holds back tweeners like Jerryd Bayless, or Monta Ellis.

Good post...I think we're on the same page. Passing ability is definitely the biggie that separates the point guards from the combo guards. Those little dudes rarely play full-time PG, or have a hard time holding on to the position if they do. That type of player usually ends up being "instant offense" off the bench.

Where we diverge, I think...

IMO, theres a basic package of passes every NBA calibur "true" PG can make...and while I agree we don't always pick up on the nuance, I think any of those second tier guys like Duhon and Felton you mention could more or less make the same passes that Parker and Fish can, given the same excellent systems and dynamic players on the receiving end. Notice the better passers usually reside on teams with better options that result in more room to operate, and less off the ball pressure when trying to create off the dribble. Again, elite PG's have better tools to create those opportunities, but the pass itself is pretty basic.

For example, if Parker penetrates and draws guys to him...his dumpoff to TD has a huge margin of error. Timmay isn't going to bumble anything even remotely close to him. On the other hand, Felton isn't going to have the same wide passing lane to connect with Okeafor because he can't collapse the defense like Parker can, and he'll also have to be more alot more precise since Emeka just doesn't have TD's soft hands. Seeing Parker slice and dice within the Spurs excellent system, and he looks awesome, but Felton would too...as would Dre Miller or Duhon. Not saying Parkers not a better facilitator than those guys, because he obviously is...but in regards to the physical act of completing those passes...how much better?

Also, I think hitting a guys on the move is as much about IQ as it is in actual physical ability. Knowing when a teammate is going to cut, being able to read the defensive lapses, knowing what lanes will appear based on the called play...So hard to talk passing without talking IQ, lol.

Nice thread.

[DC]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

I've stated a few before, but just to reiterate. You have:

Passing when the recipient is on the move.
Passing when the passer is on the move.
Passing with either hand.
Passing to the general pocket of a shooter.
Passing to the specific place that specific shooters like to have it.
Passing while well defended.
Passing off of the pick and roll.
Passing to the proper hand on the post up over defense.
Passing off of the look away.

If you take the combinations of the above, and mix and match them together, you get a whole lot of fundamental passes that everyone is not great at, and some guys aren't even good at. Some people simply can't make those plays. The problem is, to the naked eye a lot of these plays don't look outstanding. You just get a general sense of an offense that runs better.

Shooting and rebounding are easier skills to equate, because there is a clear success and fail rate. But passing lives more in the gray area, so I think the subtleties get overlooked.

GREAT breakdown of passing and its importance.

THe problem with passing is many people look at ASSIST numbers and use that as an indicator of how well a passer a player is.

Take someone like S. Marbury. Career average of roughly 8 assists per game. I wouldn't really call Steph a GREAT passer by any means, yet he ranks in the all time leaders in assists.

This is one of the better BASKETBALL posts I have seen in this forum. We don't get too many of those, if you know what I mean.

I came in too late to really add much, everything has been said. GOod posts Stumble and Born

[StupiDxAzN]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

I really don't post much in the forum, so sorry if you don't recognize me. But I am by no means a good basketball player, average at best, but I do study the game and how to play point correctly because I am the PG for my church basketball team.

1. Passing: As much as a top tier ball handler like CP3 or Nash is sexy to watch, I feel the ability to keep the offense going is through ball movement, passes are quicker than dribbles in most cases. Yes, you can dribble through double teams, but you can pass out of most, if not all, of those situations. As said before, assists translate directly to good passers, but they are a strong indicator. Getting the ball to spots where your players like to catch-and-shoot, hitting the bounce pass in rhythm, or placing the ball in the shooter's "pocket" are extremely important to get scores.

2. Defense: At least to me, this NARROWLY beats out ball handling. I've never been good at isolation moves and typically use my body to shield the ball from defenders, but I still find myself effective getting the ball where it needs to go. Since the other PG does handle the ball, it's important to have EFFECTIVE defense to disrupt the other team's offense. This also can translate to mismatches, switches, and defending one on one, which allows a much better chance of a steal or disruption since the PG has better fundamentals.

3. Ball Handling: All PGs MUST handle the ball, regardless if they are elite level or second round draft picks solely based on upside. Dribbling effectively is a dominant skill all the top tier PGs in the league have. So this should be in the top three in everybody's lists, nothing more much to say.

4. Shooting: Once again a tight race for the four spot, but I think shooting ability gets the nod over finishing ability. This is because PGs need to hit down shots from downtown or jumpers. Without a midrange/longrange game, the defense can help off them, causing a lot of problems on the offense. If you remember PGs like Eric Snow with no range and compare him to a shooter like Mike Bibby, Bibby's 3pt threat is another aspect the defense need to account for during an offensive set.

5. Finishing Ability: Finishing is ranking pretty low on my list simply because I'm a pass-first PG and rarely put up more than six or eight points in a game. I'm also assuming this is talking about finishing with contact or a difficult shot, which a lot of PGs do now, but I really feel the old school pass-first PGs are really what the position is all about, instead of filling up the points for the team commonly seen today.

6. Rebounding: Not critical at all for PGs, just don't have the size for rebounding against the forwards or centers of the league. It's a premium to have a PG that can rebound, offensively or defensively. PGs are also suppose to be the first player back on defense, so it's also not their role on the team.

7. Setting Screens: Not really important at all, pretty much like the first post said, just get in the way and hope you don't get knocked down.

Overall, awesome thread.

[GSW]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

Sebastian Telfair.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

Good post...I think we're on the same page. Passing ability is definitely the biggie that separates the point guards from the combo guards.

I think we're definitely on the same page overall.

IMO, theres a basic package of passes every NBA calibur "true" PG can make...and while I agree we don't always pick up on the nuance, I think any of those second tier guys like Duhon and Felton you mention could more or less make the same passes that Parker and Fish can, given the same excellent systems and dynamic players on the receiving end.

I think the ability or inability to make those difficult passes we're talking about separates the 2nd and 3rd tier PGs as distributors. Duhon is a great example, because you can see where he is a better passer than Hinrich, but you can also see what separates him from Nash beyond scoring and IQ. There are times where he literally just cannot thread the needle. He will know what pass to make, but there isn't enough zip on it, or it isn't to the sweet spot. That's really what limits him. He's in a good system and has a good bball IQ, but he's just limited in what passes he can make off of the dribble.

Compare contrast with say, Mark Jackson, and the difference is obvious. Every pass is available to Mark, and he could hit the sweet spot at an elite level with regularity, almost as if he didn't know the passes were difficult. We're talking about baseline bounce passes that line the seams up to the shooters hand from 3/4 court distance.

A guy like Tony Parker is an overrated passer, but opportunities are there for him because of all the reasons you mentioned. His speed, finishing ability, system, coach and teammates give him a wider margin of error. So while he isn't a better "passer" than Duhon, he will make more plays.

Good stuff, Mac!

Good post...I think we're on the same page. Passing ability is definitely the biggie that separates the point guards from the combo guards. Those little dudes rarely play full-time PG, or have a hard time holding on to the position if they do. That type of player usually ends up being "instant offense" off the bench.

Where we diverge, I think...

IMO, theres a basic package of passes every NBA calibur "true" PG can make...and while I agree we don't always pick up on the nuance, I think any of those second tier guys like Duhon and Felton you mention could more or less make the same passes that Parker and Fish can, given the same excellent systems and dynamic players on the receiving end. Notice the better passers usually reside on teams with better options that result in more room to operate, and less off the ball pressure when trying to create off the dribble. Again, elite PG's have better tools to create those opportunities, but the pass itself is pretty basic.

For example, if Parker penetrates and draws guys to him...his dumpoff to TD has a huge margin of error. Timmay isn't going to bumble anything even remotely close to him. On the other hand, Felton isn't going to have the same wide passing lane to connect with Okeafor because he can't collapse the defense like Parker can, and he'll also have to be more alot more precise since Emeka just doesn't have TD's soft hands. Seeing Parker slice and dice within the Spurs excellent system, and he looks awesome, but Felton would too...as would Dre Miller or Duhon. Not saying Parkers not a better facilitator than those guys, because he obviously is...but in regards to the physical act of completing those passes...how much better?

Also, I think hitting a guys on the move is as much about IQ as it is in actual physical ability. Knowing when a teammate is going to cut, being able to read the defensive lapses, knowing what lanes will appear based on the called play...So hard to talk passing without talking IQ, lol.

Nice thread.

I really don't post much in the forum, so sorry if you don't recognize me.

1. Passing: As much as a top tier ball handler like CP3 or Nash is sexy to watch, I feel the ability to keep the offense going is through ball movement, passes are quicker than dribbles in most cases. Yes, you can dribble through double teams, but you can pass out of most, if not all, of those situations. As said before, assists translate directly to good passers, but they are a strong indicator. Getting the ball to spots where your players like to catch-and-shoot, hitting the bounce pass in rhythm, or placing the ball in the shooter's "pocket" are extremely important to get scores.

2. Defense: At least to me, this NARROWLY beats out ball handling. I've never been good at isolation moves and typically use my body to shield the ball from defenders, but I still find myself effective getting the ball where it needs to go. Since the other PG does handle the ball, it's important to have EFFECTIVE defense to disrupt the other team's offense. This also can translate to mismatches, switches, and defending one on one, which allows a much better chance of a steal or disruption since the PG has better fundamentals.

3. Ball Handling: All PGs MUST handle the ball, regardless if they are elite level or second round draft picks solely based on upside. Dribbling effectively is a dominant skill all the top tier PGs in the league have. So this should be in the top three in everybody's lists, nothing more much to say.



Overall, awesome thread.

Great stuff, man! Great points overall. While I obviously have my opinions, I love what people are bringing to the table. The arguments for Defense being higher on the list is very compelling. My response to keeping Ball Handling at the #1 spot is organized NBA defense. If a team can trap you and take you out of your offense, the game is over before it begins. That's what a lot of teams use to go on runs at key times, and you have four basic levels of battling the trap/full court pressure:

1)Epic fail--turnover

2)Fail--offense doesn't get started until 14 secs into the clock

3)Acceptable--You spend energy busting the trap, but get into your set with no real troubles, and only your players' rhythm is mildly effected

4)Big Success! You turn their aggression into regression, and not only bust the trap efficiently, but turn it into a scoring opportunity, and effectively counter punch without even having to call a timeout. This can be very demoralizing to a trapping, pressuring defense, and is a big step to winning the mental game.

We don't see this a lot during the regular season for a myriad of reasons, but in the playoffs, this can be an extremely important part of a 5-9 point swing, and is always forgotten when teams cry "bad luck" in a close playoff loss.

This is the one area that other players cannot pick up the slack for. SGs can take over playmaking. Bigs can finish. At this point, anyone from 1-5 can make threes and SFs and SGs are even initiating the half court offense, but if your PG can't use his ball handling to break traps, run the transition game and counter punch pressure, you are at a sever disadvantage.

[ehh]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

The two biggest ones (not going to microanalyze every type of pass that can be made)...

- Protecting the ball/limiting turnovers
- Making your teammates better

[GSW]

Re: In Order: What are the most important PG qualities?

if your PG can't use his ball handling to break traps, run the transition game and counter punch pressure, you are at a sever disadvantage.

you mean like monta ellis

fail.