Hakeem vs. Shaq

[Bornindamecca]

Just something that's been going through my head before I get my coffee and finish this damned comic.

Hakeem was arguably the best two way center of his era, which was filled with dominant centers. On the one hand, he would be considered Patrick Ewing if Jordan hadn't retired and given him a chance to win those rings. People would say, "he's great, but..." On the other hand, he did win those two rings, and he got one of them by child abusing Shaq.

Shaq was inarguably the best center of most of his era(read: not the part of it where Hakeem played), but he wasn't as great of a defender and wasn't always the best "big"(Timmay!)

Straight up comparison, it looks good for Shaq, but my question is, what if you dragged and dropped them into each others' situations? Put Shaq in the Jordan Era and put Hakeem in the Kobe Era(that's right, biznatches, 10 years, 7 Finals, deal wit it)

How many titles would Hakeem have won with Kobe? With Wade? *Phoenix trade?




*Credit to Shaq, Hakeem's effectiveness absolutely vanished in his mid thirties, while Shaq is still a top ten center in his golden years

[wwharton]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

Tough question. I think there were more true centers during Hakeem's years so I think it'd be an ok assumption that he'd still be a top 10 center at this point too. The difference is, Shaq's size helps him stay up there and Hakeem didn't have that to fall back on.

I don't know. Hakeem probably could've matched Shaq's total if he were put in the same situations throughout his career. But at the same time, Shaq was a freak when he came into the league and would've been that much more of a freak during an even earlier time.

I won't hold the beating Hakeem put on Shaq against him, since it's not like Hakeem was chopped liver.

[ScoobySnax]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

Dream was a beast. He had top performance for 13 years. That's pretty good. I know some guys have done it longer(KA-J, Shaq etc,), but he's still the best I've seen (26 yrs old). The most fundamentally sound big man to have ever laced 'em up.

[Taur3asi3]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

Hakeem won titles where his best teammate for 1 was Otis Thorpe and the other was old man Clyde Drexler. Shaq doesn't win with those Rockets teams and if Hakeem had Kobe or Wade in their primes like Shaq did he owns the league even more than he did. Also I don't think Hakeem would've pulled the crap Shaq has and get traded from LA or Miami.

Elderly Shaq still being top 10 at his position is because for the last decade (oddly enough since Hakeem and Ewing got old and Zo had his illness) the center position has been a barren wasteland. Look at the starting centers when the Lakers were ontop in the early 2000's, it was horrifying.

edit: BTW if you can't tell I'd take Dream over Shaq any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[The15thunter]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

i'd take hakeem olajuwon over shaquille o'neal inarguably. i think he would have had more success with the lakers, would have been with the team longer than shaq did because kobe and he would have co-existed much better, and i think he ranks higher in all-time rankings.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

I'm of the opinion that Hakeem was the 3rd best center to ever play the game (behind Jabbar and Chamberlain). He was a center that could do everything. Score inside with his back to the basket, face up and either hit a 10 footer or use one of his MANY moves to burn you and get a lay up, shoot free throws, rebound on both ends, block shots, pass, steals, you name it. In his prime, he was the Jordan of centers. No weakness (couldn't shoot from the outside, but you wouldn't expect a center to)

Shaq, in his prime, couldn't be stopped by anyone because of his godlike strength mixed with more quickness and athleticism than he was given credit for. But, Shaq was entering his prime (minus having Phil Jackson as a coach) when Hakeem (in his prime) abused Shaq on both ends of the court.

While I am one of the first people to say that Kobe wasn't the man when the Lakers won those 3 straight, without Kobe, Shaq doesn't win those 3, either. and he, of course, doesn't win in Miami without Wade. Hakeem basically carried a team of role players to the title in 1994, and basically again in 1995 (Drexler was a good player, even in his old age).

The last reason I would take Hakeem, is that he was never a selfish player (or at least I never got that impression). Whoever came along, he played with them, and if they were seen as a better weapon, he would let the offense run through them. Shaq was on 2 teams that broke up because of his ego (not ALL because of him in LA. Kobe had a worse ego than Shaq). But, he basically wanted out of Orlando because he couldn't play with a star, in Penny (if I remember correctly), and we all know what happened in LA when he and Kobe couldn't co-exist. Hakeem was the consummate teammate and professional.

[wwharton]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

I'm of the opinion that Hakeem was the 3rd best center to ever play the game (behind Jabbar and Chamberlain). He was a center that could do everything. Score inside with his back to the basket, face up and either hit a 10 footer or use one of his MANY moves to burn you and get a lay up, shoot free throws, rebound on both ends, block shots, pass, steals, you name it. In his prime, he was the Jordan of centers. No weakness (couldn't shoot from the outside, but you wouldn't expect a center to)

Shaq, in his prime, couldn't be stopped by anyone because of his godlike strength mixed with more quickness and athleticism than he was given credit for. But, Shaq was entering his prime (minus having Phil Jackson as a coach) when Hakeem (in his prime) abused Shaq on both ends of the court.

While I am one of the first people to say that Kobe wasn't the man when the Lakers won those 3 straight, without Kobe, Shaq doesn't win those 3, either. and he, of course, doesn't win in Miami without Wade. Hakeem basically carried a team of role players to the title in 1994, and basically again in 1995 (Drexler was a good player, even in his old age).

The last reason I would take Hakeem, is that he was never a selfish player (or at least I never got that impression). Whoever came along, he played with them, and if they were seen as a better weapon, he would let the offense run through them. Shaq was on 2 teams that broke up because of his ego (not ALL because of him in LA. Kobe had a worse ego than Shaq). But, he basically wanted out of Orlando because he couldn't play with a star, in Penny (if I remember correctly), and we all know what happened in LA when he and Kobe couldn't co-exist. Hakeem was the consummate teammate and professional.

Good post.

Shaq had a plenty big ego in LA... no way Kobe's was worse, Shaq just did a good job of having it seem like it was all Kobe. He left Orlando mostly bc he wanted to go to Hollywood, make movies, etc... playing for the Lakers probably had something to do with it too. I don't remember hearing much about any beef between Shaq and Penny.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

Good post.

Shaq had a plenty big ego in LA... no way Kobe's was worse, Shaq just did a good job of having it seem like it was all Kobe. He left Orlando mostly bc he wanted to go to Hollywood, make movies, etc... playing for the Lakers probably had something to do with it too. I don't remember hearing much about any beef between Shaq and Penny.

I don't think it was a beef, but I do seem to remember reading that the coach at the time was wanting Penny to take more and more shots, and Shaq wasn't happy about it.

EDIT: and valid point about Shaq's ego in LA. I'll say they each had an equal ego. and it just got to the point where it wasn't going to work.

[wwharton]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

I don't think it was a beef, but I do seem to remember reading that the coach at the time was wanting Penny to take more and more shots, and Shaq wasn't happy about it.

EDIT: and valid point about Shaq's ego in LA. I'll say they each had an equal ego. and it just got to the point where it wasn't going to work.

I can go with that.

[ehh]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

Titles are too hard to guess but Shaq would have been fine in any era. He's not like Duhwight who would have struggled in the 80s & 90s, he was destroying Ewing, Robinson, etc in his Orlando days. He was the 2nd best center in the league. Do I think he'd have four rings if he entered the league a decade early? No way. But he still would have been an animal and put up monster numbers.

I don't hold the 1995 Finals against Shaq either, every big man in the league was getting schooled by Hakeem and Shaq was never a great defender anyway. And let's not forget, Shaq put up huge numbers on Hakeem's head too.

Hakeem was just a joy to watch because of his footwork and because he could read a defender better than any post player I've ever seen. So many bigs have canned post moves and don't react to the defense, Hakeem was a master and throwing fake after fake at you until you bit or something - and if you didn't bite he'd just shoot over the top of you. I learned more from Hakeem than any other player I watched growing up. Showing the ball like he did on the Dream Shake, I still use to that to this day and it still gets people all the time. I have no idea why it's barely used in this day and age. Pivoting multiple times too, I definitely learned that from Hakeem. I get plenty of dudes yelling at the ref for a travel in my rec leagues because so few people use multiple pivots/step throughs/etc these days. All legal and all deadly.

I also feel that there's a perception out there that Hakeem's peak was too short, which is total BS. Yes, his scoring went up during the mid-90s but it's not like he wasn't a great player before that.

Anyway, if Hakeem entered the league 10 years after he did he would have owned the NBA. No clue how many titles, but if he faced the weak competition and watered down NBA of the 00 I'm guessing he's in the discussion as the greatest center of all time.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

Hakeem was just a joy to watch because of his footwork and because he could read a defender better than any post player I've ever seen. So many bigs have canned post moves and don't react to the defense, Hakeem was a master and throwing fake after fake at you until you bit or something - and if you didn't bite he'd just shoot over the top of you. I learned more from Hakeem than any other player I watched growing up. Showing the ball like he did on the Dream Shake, I still use to that to this day and it still gets people all the time. I have no idea why it's barely used in this day and age. Pivoting multiple times too, I definitely learned that from Hakeem. I get plenty of dudes yelling at the ref for a travel in my rec leagues because so few people use multiple pivots/step throughs/etc these days. All legal and all deadly.

The closest thing to it is really all of the ball fakes that Rondo does when he drives that he gets so much credit for. They make it seem as though he invented them, but go back and watch some clips. He's basically doing his own versions of moves that Hakeem did and that Pete Maravich did.

[ehh]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

Yup, it's amazing to me that it's not used frequently. I don't think the defender believes you're going to shoot half the time (it's not like getting some one off their feet w. a pump fake) but it does cause them to freeze just enough to give you an open look. It kinda gets the D to relax/freeze for a split second, similar to a hesitation dribble.

[Cebby]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

I have no idea why it's barely used in this day and age. Pivoting multiple times too, I definitely learned that from Hakeem. I get plenty of dudes yelling at the ref for a travel in my rec leagues because so few people use multiple pivots/step throughs/etc these days. All legal and all deadly.

Players have no incentive to develop any offensive game in high school since their size alone is such an advantage and then in their one year of college they're generally playing for an inferior coach who lets them do whatever they want.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the two bigs who dominated the post-Jordan era spent three and four years in college.

[Taur3asi3]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

It boggles my mind that the 2 most unstoppable moves in the history of the game, the Skyhook and Dream Shake haven't been used by anyone other than Jabbar and Olajuwon. If someone could master both of them with a righty/lefty Skyhook then it's over they'd be unstoppable.

[ehh]

Re: Hakeem vs. Shaq

My HS coach made me practice the Skyhook back in the day, told me I'd be in the NBA some day if I perfected it.

I was young and dumb and couldn't keep a straight face when shooting it so I quit on it real quick. Maybe I should have listened to him and stuck with it.

Cebby, it is so damn true about the bigs developing in college. You need that adjustment and growth time.