Lebron James: Overrated?

[oklahoma19]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

Seriously dude? Okay let's run with that thinking. Kobe Bean, Game 7, Phoenix Suns, NBA Playoffs opening round.

LeBron James quit games - 1
Kobe Bryant quit games - 1

Time to switch up your argument.

hey bud.. why dont you read my actual post.. the Kobe Game 7 made my point for me.. Kobe didnt quit he passed to his teammates.. proving the fact that his only desire is to prove hes great.. even if he loses because he didnt shoot.. and who turned this into a kobe vs leborn argument? that wasnt even what i was getting at.. so i cant switch up my argument when thats not the topic i was on.. get on the same page friend..

[HMcCoy]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

Lebron isn't overrated in one sense. With so much hype around him, it's easy to find hyperbole that doesn't stick, but by the time he was eliminated from the playoffs and Kobe had his knee drained, people had jumped ship and started calling Kobe the best player in the game.

Whether or not that's true, it indicates that Lebron is not the consensus best player in the game. Since he is at least the 2nd best player in the game by any measure, he's not overrated.

That having been said, there is one aspect of his game that is misinterpreted, if not overrated. The prevailing thought is that he makes his teammates better. This isn't true. Maybe one day he will, but right now I don't think there is a single player on his roster that is a better player than they were before they put on the same uniform as Lebron James. Lebron is a great passer. Being a great passer doesn't automatically make your teammates better. Regularly putting guys in the best position to use their specific skills is what makes them better, along with the mental aspect of demanding greatness or setting an example that weaker minded or passive players will follow.

If you look at the production of his teammates, not only do their numbers either equal or fall short of what they've done in the past, but their on-court performance tends to be marginalized, because Lebron has to start his offense so early in the shot clock. People don't get touches or the chance to initiate, and so they have less responsibility(as opposed to specific responsibility). In any situation, less responsibility lessens accountability, potential and initiative.

Lebron will probably learn to occasionally hand the keys over to his teammates to empower them, rather than taking the mentality of spoon feeding them. Many guys don't flourish on a steady diet of spoon feeding, and thusly don't have the faculties to "step up" when the stakes are raised(playoffs).

Good post, B...but one thing your analysis doesn't include the additional pressure of being on the "Chosen One's" stage. Being put in the spotlight of having to help "Teh Grate-ist player EVER!!!!" is a unique challenge, and alot of guys who have come through here haven't been ready for that. For better or worse, the everything Cavs related is magnified by quite a bit. This I think MJ and Kobe were very good at...being the bad guy and demanding excellence. Bron is too buddy buddy with the teams inner circle. He's supportive, but not willing to make enemies. You don't really get the sense that anyone besides Fish and Maybe Josh Powell really "love" Kobe. Big reason why he's got three straight Finals appearances. His soldiers are ready to help, and you have to give he and PJ props for that. So much more important than the logistics of matchups and such.

Hickson is a huge example of how Bron can make a mediocre player look alot better just based on the attention he gets, though. Ditto for Varejao. He surely spoonfeeds these guys gravy buckets, but doesn't rely on them as fluidly as he should. IE, Bron likes to lay back in the first quarter and facilitate. That's great, but you can't just concentrate on getting your guys going at the same place in the game, EVERY TIME. It can't just be "OK 1st quarter I chill, 4th quarter I do everything". Bron defintley needs to be less predictable in his facilitation.

Poor offensive coaching is also a huge factor in how players are made better in Cavs uniform. The no one got better doesn't really apply to individual defense. Quite a few players have been better defenders for the Cavs than they were previously.

[SaltyBlackWorm]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

For so much hype around him, LeBron really lived up to it, but seriously, overrated? i dont get it, in what is he overrated?

[HMcCoy]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

Oh goodie, another soon-to-be Kobe-Lebron comparison thread that'll probably last about 10 pages before being eventually locked.

Can we get this locked up now? This is only gonna get worse from here.

These are the worst posts in the thread. All they do is draw attention to the one poor poster so far, as most of the replies have been pretty thoughtful. If dudes stopped playing Randy from Idol, and actually added to the thread in a coherent manner, maybe that one poster would be marginalized.

Thanks.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

Good post, Hmac. I don't see anything in your post that directly disagrees with me. In the case of Hickson, I think he is greatly assisted by playng with Lebron throughout the game, but he hasn't really been on the court in pressure situations, nor does he have a pre-Cavs resume/skillset to live up to, so he's a bit of an exception in a few key ways.

I have some theories on the "bad offensive coaching" situation. Losing coach Q hurt you guys, but beyond that, lemme wrap up my theory: Cleveland basically got smashed by Orlando last year. You and I disagree a little bit on that. You say a couple of bad bounces made them lose, but I feel a couple of good bounces kept them from losing in an embarrassing 5 game series. The real issue is that Dwight Howard looked at Verajaeo and Z, put on a bib, and ate them biznatches. People forget, but part of Bron's frustration came from his team's inability to deliver hard fouls and prevent dunks from Dwight. Dwight broke down the interior of the Cavs' defense and everything else collapsed from there.

The First Result a.k.a the First Sin(of Mike Brown): Since Cleveland found themselves in the rare situation of being unable to stop someone, Brown panicked and went to the 1 and 4 spread offense for Bron. This created the perception that Cleveland couldn't score outside of James(not without a lot of help from Mo Williams' choke job).

The Second Result--The Snaqman cometh: Cleveland goes out and makes a bunch of moves to give Lebron more scoring options. Unfortunately, rather than simply investing in a more reliable shooting guard(a Raja Bell type would have been the ideal tweak), they went ahead and got Shaq to counter Dwight, Ancient Parker to guard bigger SGs and SFs and later on, Jamison to hit shots from the 4 position and spread the floor for Shaq. This was like that cartoon where they get the cat to get the mouse, then the dog to get the cat, then the lion to get the dog etc...

So what did they wind up with? A team that needed to win on the offensive end. The 66 win Cavs team were not that. They got Stops with a capital S. They were big inside, they rebounded, they protected the paint, they hounded and gambled on the perimeter and they made it a game where opposing teams had to match Lebron+the easy points created by both his ability and the well oiled machine that was their offense. No, they didn't have great 1 on 1 players, but they had a really nice attack to compliment their D.

The real issue was Mo Williams. The Cavs' gameplan was not built to survive such a complete choke job from him. So they made a new gameplan that they thought could survive such a choke job, but.....

The Problem Against Boston a.k.a. Heeeerre's RONDO!-- a team of Williams, Parker, Bron, Jamison and Shaq absolutely CANNOT consistently stop a guard as quick and smart as Rondo. The only way to beat that is to be able to match Boston offensively, and the Cavs did not have the tools to do that.

Along with losing Q, Mike is now exposed because he doesn't have his Spurs-like defense to cover up his lack of Xs and Os on offense. MB(and staff) was a good enough offensive coach to get the job done against most teams if his defense was going to keep people from scoring comfortably. If you ask him to flat out coach an offense that will outscore someone, he looks like a much worse coach than he is.

Born's Diagnosis: Should have kept Brown, replaced Mo, start Verajao and find athletic, defensive roleplayers to allow Jamison to be too small and too terrible on defense, while reaping the rewards of his skillset on offense. Ideally? Biedrins, Joe Johnson, Kirk Hinrich. Any two out of that three could put Cleveland right back where they needed to be, even on a Brown coached team. Now? Without a coach, I don't know what they should do yet.

Just my two cents tho.

[NYJets]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

Youre only as good as your most recent showing

Wait...wtf?????

[55]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

The only glaring weakness in LeBron's game is that he chucks up way too many three point shots when he should be driving the lane instead. He's arguably the best guy in the league at driving to the basket and drawing contact, yet he is a below average three point shooter. Yeah, he'll have those 5/6 nights from beyond the arc but for every one of those he'll have a few 1/10 nights from deep as well.

[clivo1050]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

I've always felt he does not have the killer instinct that the Birds, Jordans, Magic, Bryants have.

LBJ is not very mature as far as I'm concerned. I was dumbfounded seeing LBJ and his teammates celebrating/dancing "DURING"/after "EVERY GAME" that they jumped out to a lead or beat the crap out of a team. Nothing wrong with feeling good about a win but act like you have been there before. Oh Snap!!! they haven't been there before but by the way they acted on the bench you would have thought LBJ and crew were the Defending World Champs.

LBJ has wonderful talent but I do think he is overrated.

I've said it for many years that Lebron does, in fact, lack the "killer instinct." He's often much too passive in crucial times of the game.

[HMcCoy]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

Good post, Hmac. I don't see anything in your post that directly disagrees with me. In the case of Hickson, I think he is greatly assisted by playng with Lebron throughout the game, but he hasn't really been on the court in pressure situations, nor does he have a pre-Cavs resume/skillset to live up to, so he's a bit of an exception in a few key ways.

I have some theories on the "bad offensive coaching" situation. Losing coach Q hurt you guys, but beyond that, lemme wrap up my theory: Cleveland basically got smashed by Orlando last year. You and I disagree a little bit on that. You say a couple of bad bounces made them lose, but I feel a couple of good bounces kept them from losing in an embarrassing 5 game series. The real issue is that Dwight Howard looked at Verajaeo and Z, put on a bib, and ate them biznatches. People forget, but part of Bron's frustration came from his team's inability to deliver hard fouls and prevent dunks from Dwight. Dwight broke down the interior of the Cavs' defense and everything else collapsed from there.

The First Result a.k.a the First Sin(of Mike Brown): Since Cleveland found themselves in the rare situation of being unable to stop someone, Brown panicked and went to the 1 and 4 spread offense for Bron. This created the perception that Cleveland couldn't score outside of James(not without a lot of help from Mo Williams' choke job).

The Second Result--The Snaqman cometh: Cleveland goes out and makes a bunch of moves to give Lebron more scoring options. Unfortunately, rather than simply investing in a more reliable shooting guard(a Raja Bell type would have been the ideal tweak), they went ahead and got Shaq to counter Dwight, Ancient Parker to guard bigger SGs and SFs and later on, Jamison to hit shots from the 4 position and spread the floor for Shaq. This was like that cartoon where they get the cat to get the mouse, then the dog to get the cat, then the lion to get the dog etc...

So what did they wind up with? A team that needed to win on the offensive end. The 66 win Cavs team were not that. They got Stops with a capital S. They were big inside, they rebounded, they protected the paint, they hounded and gambled on the perimeter and they made it a game where opposing teams had to match Lebron+the easy points created by both his ability and the well oiled machine that was their offense. No, they didn't have great 1 on 1 players, but they had a really nice attack to compliment their D.

The real issue was Mo Williams. The Cavs' gameplan was not built to survive such a complete choke job from him. So they made a new gameplan that they thought could survive such a choke job, but.....

The Problem Against Boston a.k.a. Heeeerre's RONDO!-- a team of Williams, Parker, Bron, Jamison and Shaq absolutely CANNOT consistently stop a guard as quick and smart as Rondo. The only way to beat that is to be able to match Boston offensively, and the Cavs did not have the tools to do that.

Along with losing Q, Mike is now exposed because he doesn't have his Spurs-like defense to cover up his lack of Xs and Os on offense. MB(and staff) was a good enough offensive coach to get the job done against most teams if his defense was going to keep people from scoring comfortably. If you ask him to flat out coach an offense that will outscore someone, he looks like a much worse coach than he is.

Born's Diagnosis: Should have kept Brown, replaced Mo, start Verajao and find athletic, defensive roleplayers to allow Jamison to be too small and too terrible on defense, while reaping the rewards of his skillset on offense. Ideally? Biedrins, Joe Johnson, Kirk Hinrich. Any two out of that three could put Cleveland right back where they needed to be, even on a Brown coached team. Now? Without a coach, I don't know what they should do yet.

Just my two cents tho.

Great post, again.

On mike Brown, I think his fatal flaw was the mantra: "I know you guys don't like to focus on D...so I'll make you a deal. Play my kamikaze rotation defense, and i'll give you some basic offensive concepts to work with and trust you to do what you want on offense most of the time". As a noob coach, it may have been the only chip he had to get a team to play that well defensively, and we won alot of games that way. Ultimately it wasn't a winning gameplan, because in crunchtime, they had no tried and true go-to sets.

Thing about Mo...let's be realistic. Fish is nearly as bad on D, and as usesless overall on offense as Mo. Without checking I wouldn't be surprised if they had similar playoff stats, both guys won a game for their club. Fish is gritty, and plays the refs like a champ...Flopping around and having a great feel for when the refs owe him a call, and how to use that at critical points is why Fish has 5 rings his damn self, but he was considered the Lakes weakest link all year. The Cavs could have survived Mo Williams if Jamison had been better used, or Shaq wasn't caked with 3 months of rust...

The bigger issue is that The Queen disagreed with Shaq being put in at that point in the season after a long layoff and no chemistry with Jamision, and pouted for halfs at a time. More than one fan seated near the bench have said they heard Bron yell at MB "OK you and Shaq win the *%&^ game then!" on local call-in shows. Whatever it was, this or Delonte-banging-my-moms-gate...something happened to the Cavs mojo at exactly the wrong time, and it all kinda skews the actual X's and O's for me. Conventional wisdom doesn't really tell the whole story, IMO...and I blame headmaster Bron for the teams performance. Im pretty confident James thought the Cavs were better than the C's and that he could flip the switch.

Damn LeBron. GRRRRR.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

I agree with almost all of the above points, save for one thing:

Everything you said about Fish makes him a better defender than Mo Williams. Fish is terrible one on one against younger guards, but he can draw fouls on bigger defenders at a regular clip.

Also: Fish IS the weak link. That's the point. He's not relied upon to score in double digits, so when he goes 1 for 8, the Lakers may not feel it. Also, he's a spot up jump shooter by nature, and he excels in that role, which makes him good for what little(but specific and important) responsibility he has.

Mo Williams is not a spot up shooter. He's a very good one on one scorer. When he's beating his man, he can get himself some shots and then he has the confidence to knock down those 3s. When he stands around watching Lebron for three quarters, his ability to make those shots PLUMMETS.

Also, I was talking about last year that Williams' choking was too much for the Cavs, because that was when they played D. Against the C's, there is no Kobe Bryant to put on Rondo. Some people have the misconception that all Kobe does is not guard Rondo and gamble in the paint. This is far from the truth. If that were the case, Fisher could do it. Obviously he couldn't, because whenever Fisher got matched up, Rondo's eyes got big, he yelled "oh goodie!" and drove right to the basket.

Thing is, Mo can't guard Ray Allen, Parker can't guard Rondo, and Lebron can't guard Rondo. Now if you guys had the great defensive Cavs, maybe you could survive Rajon having his way with your guards. With Shaq and Jamison (not) rotating and (not) running back in transition, Rondo's dominance resulted in a COMPLETE breakdown.

Now that having been said, everything else you say about Bron in that situation is likely true, and his overconfidence created a gap too big to cross for sure. Thing is, if the Cavs were a better defensive team, they could have survived some misplaced impudence from their 25 year old star.

In related news, this is just sad:

CLEVELAND -- The Cleveland Cavaliers don't currently have a coach, any draft picks or a clue if LeBron James is coming back.

But in this volatile summer, things are changing quickly.

The Cavs, who traded away their selections while chasing an NBA title, are trying to move back into Thursday's draft through a trade. The team has purchased second-round picks in each of the past two years, and could be positioning to do it again.

Cleveland has discussed deals with several teams, even listening to offers for point guard Mo Williams, who has drawn some interest. Williams has had two solid regular seasons with the Cavs, but he has been maddeningly inconsistent in the playoffs since joining Cleveland.

With trade rumors swirling, as they typically do before the draft, Williams pleaded on his Twitter account that he wants to stay with the Cavs.

"Please don't trade me, I'm not ready to go," Williams wrote. "I'm begging. My work ain't done yet. I'm on both knees. I'm serious."

[SaltyBlackWorm]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

AWWWW

[HMcCoy]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

In Hindsight B, the Cavs had a dominant defense in 07, and then put three bad defenders into key rotational spots. Browns rotation covered these dudes in the regular, but when a team can watch film and devise a scheme to beat it, and then tweak that formula over a series, those weakspots got exposed.

In related news, this is just sad:

I for one love it. Let the world tell it, everybody hates CLE. At least one guy who doesn't want to leave...and i'll take it. Hes showing alot more love for us than the other guy.

Also, while popular theory said Mo was a postseason no-show, Mo's numbers:

Season: 16/5/3 44%
Postseason: 14/5/3 41%

Not a dramatic falloff. Lebron and Mike Brown were the main culprits, not Mo getting one less bucket per.

[BaselineBakes]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

Game 4 against the Celtics, End of third Cavs on a run taking over the game as they had just cut a 10 pt lead, looking good coming off the blowout of game 3 and then...boom, 4th quarter stinker. The Cavs didnt score for the first 5 minutes. Im still not sure what happened but that quarter changed that series.

They had em. They had em.

[BlueNGold]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

And? Yeah I watched that game live on tv.. whats the point? Youre only as good as your most recent showing... and if I remember right he didnt win the Finals that year either.. soo..

Plus i dont know how you can say he didnt quit.. he knew this was his contract year.. and the last 2 minutes or so of that boston game were RIDICULOUS.. it was sad to watch. When Im sitting there thinking.. umm why arent they playing.. then somethings wrong..

Just because he can take a game over doesnt mean hes a competitor enough to win in the Finals.. or get there consistently like all the greats... so thanks for the ignorant comment.. real mature of you friend..

The hell? So I guess MJ is only as good as his Wizards days with that logic.

As for the title of the thread, I'm sorry if I sound like a dick but it's just dumb. The one guy who has actually lived up to all of the enormous hype everyone put on him and we're going to call him overrated?

Think about this....if LeBron were to retire today, he'd more than likely be a Hall of Famer.

[Jay Smooth 00]

Re: Lebron James: Overrated?

Oh goodie, another soon-to-be Kobe-Lebron comparison thread that'll probably last about 10 pages before being eventually locked.

Sir, I am TOTALLY NOT trying to make a lebron Kobe thread. Just wanted to have your ideas about lebron being almost a "sore loser" if you may say.