MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

[Bornindamecca]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

C'mon, Ex, don't feed into the Kobe vs. MJ thing. Folks have been pretty good about keeping that under wraps.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

at me for responding to that guy

[TMagic]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

I don't really get the love Oscar gets sometimes. In the very little that I've seen of him, I have never been impressed.

I honestly feel like I could do an admirable job guarding him one on one. Kobe in the other hand, I KNOW would absolutely kill me...lol

Now that may not be the most scientific approach to comparing players, but that alone makes me put Kobe ahead of Oscar. Hell, imagine two conpletely equal teams with Oscar on one side and Kobe on the other. Who do you take? If you had the first pick in a draft, who do you take? When I ask myself these questions, I gotta go with Kobe.

Can you imagine what would happen if you took prime Kobe and supplanted him in the 60's. My goodness.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

When I watch 60's basketball and I wanna end my life. I put a * next to anything pre late 70's.

The pace of it was mind numbing, and it honestly looked like the same thing down the floor every time. Sure there were the stand out players but really compared to today's athlete it's just too different.

How anyone can honestly say Oscar and West> Kobe is beyond me. Hell the era was such that I'd put several lower regarded SG's from the 80's, 90's and today ahead of Oscar/West. Having respect for them is one thing but comparing them is another.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

When I watch 60's basketball and I wanna end my life. I put a * next to anything pre late 70's.

The pace of it was mind numbing, and it honestly looked like the same thing down the floor every time. Sure there were the stand out players but really compared to today's athlete it's just too different.

How anyone can honestly say Oscar and West> Kobe is beyond me. Hell the era was such that I'd put several lower regarded SG's from the 80's, 90's and today ahead of Oscar/West. Having respect for them is one thing but comparing them is another.

I totally agree. There has been minimal change in the league since the mid/late 80s, really. You look at the footage and you can see how people's skillsets would translate, and how their physical gifts would allow them to be better players in the modern era with better physical training and film study.

However the 60s/70s are a completely different story. There are only a few athletes with transcendent skillsets. Most of those guys would not see the same looks in today's game, and simply wouldn't be able to keep up. You put Kobe in the 60s/70s and people would think he was from another planet.

[RonnieG]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

I totally agree. There has been minimal change in the league since the mid/late 80s, really. You look at the footage and you can see how people's skillsets would translate, and how their physical gifts would allow them to be better players in the modern era with better physical training and film study.

However the 60s/70s are a completely different story. There are only a few athletes with transcendent skillsets. Most of those guys would not see the same looks in today's game, and simply wouldn't be able to keep up. You put Kobe in the 60s/70s and people would think he was from another planet.

Good observation. The average height in the NBA has been 6'7 for about 30 years. And its been played above the rim during that time. Its kind of been that way since the ABA and the NBA consolidated. If theres an increase in athleticism its effect is minimized by the fact that the basket's only 10 feet whether guys can dunk at 11' or 12'. But the athleticism difference isnt that drastic. There as maybe a time when GMs drafted more shooters but its not like the athletic 6'7 player hasnt been around for a long time.

[RonnieG]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Good observation. The average height in the NBA has been 6'7 for about 30 years. And its been played above the rim during that time. Its kind of been that way since the ABA and the NBA consolidated. If theres an increase in athleticism its effect is minimized by the fact that the basket's only 10 feet whether guys can dunk at 11' or 12'. But the athleticism difference isnt that drastic. There as maybe a time when GMs drafted more shooters but its not like the athletic 6'7 player hasnt been around for a long time.

Just to add to this. Here is a source that kind of indicates what I was saying, although, it looks like players have actually been getting shorter.

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2007.html

Its fluctuated and ther differences aren massive maybe but its a little surprising that 86/87 was the year with the highest average height for NBA players.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Well, should we throw out everything before 1980 then? Kobe would be the third best guard since 1980.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Well, should we throw out everything before 1980 then? Kobe would be the third best guard since 1980.

Not at all, hence why I distinguished respect from comparing. Fans of basketball should observe these guys as the pioneers. Obviously nothing looks like it does today without them.

The modern era should never be compared to the 70's and before. The game itself was vastly different and man was just getting to scratch the potential of its athleticism. Technology both in exercise and diet were also much different.

It's just no comparison.

[KG]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

When I watch 60's basketball and I wanna end my life. I put a * next to anything pre late 70's.

The pace of it was mind numbing, and it honestly looked like the same thing down the floor every time. Sure there were the stand out players but really compared to today's athlete it's just too different.

How anyone can honestly say Oscar and West> Kobe is beyond me. Hell the era was such that I'd put several lower regarded SG's from the 80's, 90's and today ahead of Oscar/West. Having respect for them is one thing but comparing them is another.

Well, should we throw out everything before 1980 then? Kobe would be the third best guard since 1980.

I agree 100% when it comes to guard-play. The only enjoyment I get out of watching pre-Magic/Bird hoops is from the big men but it's not enough for me to withstand watching that era of basketball.

[AlexBrady]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

I don't really get the love Oscar gets sometimes. In the very little that I've seen of him, I have never been impressed.

I honestly feel like I could do an admirable job guarding him one on one. Kobe in the other hand, I KNOW would absolutely kill me...lol

Now that may not be the most scientific approach to comparing players, but that alone makes me put Kobe ahead of Oscar. Hell, imagine two conpletely equal teams with Oscar on one side and Kobe on the other. Who do you take? If you had the first pick in a draft, who do you take? When I ask myself these questions, I gotta go with Kobe.

Can you imagine what would happen if you took prime Kobe and supplanted him in the 60's. My goodness.

It depends on what Oscar you were watching. If you were watching him on the Bucks then he was on the downside. He was at his best with the Royals.

And if you weren't impressed by Oscar you may be placing undue emphasis on jumping ability (which was the one flaw in his game). Otherwise he was great at everything, rebounding, passing, perimeter defense, handling, pick setting, ect. And no, your chances would be microscopically better against Kobe (do realize you would have next to no chance against either).

[TMagic]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

It's not because of his lack of athleticsm.

More than anything, it has to do with what me being spoiled with what I've seen NBA players capable of doing from the Jordan era, and looking at what Oscar was doing then.

I completely understand why he is considered one of the NBA's all time greats. But to say that Oscar is better than Kobe, which I've seen a few times in these forums, is just rediculous.

I may take some heat for this, but I believe that if you took Oscar and planted him in todays league, he wouldn't come close to averaging a triple double, he wouldn't be an all star, and he'd be an average player at best.

[KG]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

It depends on what Oscar you were watching. If you were watching him on the Bucks then he was on the downside. He was at his best with the Royals.

And if you weren't impressed by Oscar you may be placing undue emphasis on jumping ability (which was the one flaw in his game). Otherwise he was great at everything, rebounding, passing, perimeter defense, handling, pick setting, ect. And no, your chances would be microscopically better against Kobe (do realize you would have next to no chance against either).

I've only see him when he was playing for the Bucks.

[AlexBrady]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

It's not because of his lack of athleticsm.

More than anything, it has to do with what me being spoiled with what I've seen NBA players capable of doing from the Jordan era, and looking at what Oscar was doing then.

I completely understand why he is considered one of the NBA's all time greats. But to say that Oscar is better than Kobe, which I've seen a few times in these forums, is just rediculous.

I may take some heat for this, but I believe that if you took Oscar and planted him in todays league, he wouldn't come close to averaging a triple double, he wouldn't be an all star, and he'd be an average player at best.

TMagic, its simply hype to say Oscar is better or Kobe is better. No one truly knows who is better than who because they performed different functions, in different eras, on different teams.
Its silly to believe Oscar's game would take that much of a hit in todays NBA, I'll tell you that.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

TMagic, its simply hype to say Oscar is better or Kobe is better. No one truly knows who is better than who because they performed different functions, in different eras, on different teams.
Its silly to believe Oscar's game would take that much of a hit in todays NBA, I'll tell you that.

It is not hype. There are two separate discussions. There is "historical context", which is what that player did vs. his competition at the time, then there is "better" as in, what if they faced each other. This is the whole reason that the preABA merger league is in a different discussion than post 1975 NBA. The combination of talent and athleticism in the late 70s/80s was a great change in the league that shifted to what we see today. So basically, a player from the post merger NBA isn't really all that different from today. There are exceptions here and there, but most guys from the 80s aren't dissimilar from their present day counter parts.

Specific to this discussion, no offense to anyone, but you have to be crazy or blind to watch Kobe and Oscar and not know the outcome of that matchup. There is nothing wrong with saying the sport has changed since then. Kobe has benefitted from Oscar's progress, but Oscar is not a transcendent player. Guard play was just too basic compared to what happens now.

As an aside, I've seen you, AlexBrady, kill Magic for "not having a left hand". How can you look at ORob and not bring that up when comparing him to an offensive genius like Kobe? With the ball in his hands and looking to score, there is literally no weakness in Kobe's one on one game. You can't look at Oscar and say that. Come on.