Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Ok, what about each of their first 2 seasons when Westbrook averaged more 3PA AND more FTAs? Like I said earlier, I've seen almost every game Rose has played for the Bulls, and the reason Westbrook gets to the line more than Rose is because Rose doesn't sell the calls...i.e, Rose gets penalized for not flopping on plays.

Maybe Westbrook is better at drawing fouls? Seems like a plausible conclusion seeing as Westbrook has averaged more FTA than Rose throughout the entirety of their careers.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Your whole argument that Rose is only slightly better than Westbrook is based entirely on statistics.

And those arguing that Rose is significantly better than Westbrook are basing their arguments off nothing. That or fantasy. Either way, it's nothing substantial or quantifiable.

[nogster]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Rose is the better player due to a slightly elevated skillset.
athletically these 2 studs are almost identical.
but rose has better handles, a better jumpshot with better technique and his court vision is currently superior mainly due to Rose having more PG experience.
These intangibles give Rose the nod.
However. Westbrook just keeps getting better and better and it wouldnt be a long shot to assume Westbrook has the potential to even surpass Rose.

Because their playing styles and skill sets are so similar, These 2 guys will be compared and battle it out for many years
And it will be fun for us NBA lovers to watch.

For now though. Rose wins.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

So anything that isn't stats is either "nothing or fantasy"?

No. But claiming Rose is significantly better or that there is no comparison, without providing anything to support that stance is.

[Redskinsfan26]

I think Rose is definitely the better scorer, passer, and rebounder.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

I think Rose is definitely the better scorer, passer, and rebounder.

He's not a better rebounder. Their passing ability, from my perspective, is essentially a wash. Neither of them are elite passers nor posses elite court vision.

[cubsball899]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

if westbrook was playing with elite rebounders and rose wasn't, what would their rebounding numbers look like?

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

if westbrook was playing with elite rebounders and rose wasn't, what would their rebounding numbers look like?

Don't know. But playing with inferior rebounders isn't going to magically make Rose a better individual rebounder.

[cubsball899]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Don't know. But playing with inferior rebounders isn't going to magically make Rose a better individual rebounder.

you're right, but i think you're smart enough to know that it means there will be more rebound to be had

[DC35]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Based on Bumi stats it basically backs up what i been saying both are elite pg's with Rose being slightly better both need to play the pg position better Westbrook plays more out of control Imo while Rose settles for too many 3's

[1Rose]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

And those arguing that Rose is significantly better than Westbrook are basing their arguments off nothing. That or fantasy. Either way, it's nothing substantial or quantifiable.

Actually, it's being based off actually WATCHING these two players play, and the teams they are on and the roles they play. Rose is supposed to score, or try to at all costs, while Russell is supposed to play second fiddle (facilitator)

Give Rose Kevin Durant and then you can throw out your efficiency stats and all that nonsense.

Rose fronted the scoring load on a bad offensive team with basically no help besides Luol Deng. Boozer was hurt for significant time, Noah for significant time etc. Unless you're going to give me some stats that lead me to believe that Keith Bogans is an offensive threat. Also apparently did so well enough to win the MVP for it.

I guess your "get teammates involved" comment was not based off anything that happened in the playoffs where Russell Westbrook continuously failed to do so, while 99% of the time being in 1 on 1 situations, while Rose was forced into double teams 3/4ths of the playoffs.

If I have to see TS% one more time, I think I'm going to blow my brains out. Stats are cool and all, especially when they help support an argument based on what we see in the game, but when you base your whole opinion off of efficiency numbers and don't look at anything outside of that, or when someone else does and you disregard it as "nothing", then people aren't going to take your arguments very seriously. Just food for thought.

[Drewski]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Just at gun point and only glancing at the title thread, and not going through 6 pages of dicussion.

Talent wise they're probably pretty close. Westbrook is a more natural scorer, with a better jumpshot. Both pretty much dead even athletically. Rose better at creating off the dribble. Hard to say Rose is a better passer because he hasn't had much to pass to, which generally get's Rose a get out of terrible offensive components free card. Still, Rose only produced 1 less assist per game than RW this season, while still having to be the #1 scoring option. Then, on the flipside, while conceding to Durant RW is still only 4 ppg behind Rose, but EVEN THEN Rose is still only averaging 2 more FGA a game than him.

I don't think you can deny that Rose is a better player, but I don't think you can deny Russell Westbrook of having a bit more of a well rounded offensive game than Rose. Rose has the intangibles though, and he's the leader. Can't really put Russ in the same category while he's 2nd fiddle. Put Russ in Rose's place, I think Russell probably puts up more points than Rose did, with about 2.5 less assists. Put Rose in Russ's spot, I think we'd be looking at a different NBA champion.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Actually, it's being based off actually WATCHING these two players play, and the teams they are on and the roles they play. Rose is supposed to score, or try to at all costs, while Russell is supposed to play second fiddle (facilitator)

Well, I watch them both play, and have never noticed a significant difference.

And nope, I'm pretty sure Westbrook is supposed to score in his current role. That's the burden you carry when you're involved in a starting rotation consisting of Kendrick Perkins, Thabo Sefolosha, and Serge Ibaka. If he and Durant don't score, no one does. Not until James Harden comes off the bench at least.

Give Rose Kevin Durant and then you can throw out your efficiency stats and all that nonsense.

Give Derrick Rose Kevin Durant, and he'd become Russell Westbrook. An All-Star PG playing second fiddle to the leagues best scorer. In fact, I suspect nothing would change except a decrease in PPG and an increase in APG.

Rose fronted the scoring load on a bad offensive team with basically no help besides Luol Deng. Boozer was hurt for significant time, Noah for significant time etc. Unless you're going to give me some stats that lead me to believe that Keith Bogans is an offensive threat. Also apparently did so well enough to win the MVP for it.

And if Westbrook were swapped for Rose, I'm sure he'd front the scoring load for the Bulls. Doesn't make one significantly better or worse than the other.

I guess your "get teammates involved" comment was not based off anything that happened in the playoffs where Russell Westbrook continuously failed to do so, while 99% of the time being in 1 on 1 situations, while Rose was forced into double teams 3/4ths of the playoffs.

Yea, Westbrook was never doubled in the playoffs(Mavs. Though they still played quite a bit of zone).

Neither did a great job of getting their teammates involved, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

If I have to see TS% one more time, I think I'm going to blow my brains out.

Load the gun.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Just at gun point and only glancing at the title thread, and not going through 6 pages of dicussion.

Talent wise they're probably pretty close. Westbrook is a more natural scorer, with a better jumpshot. Both pretty much dead even athletically. Rose better at creating off the dribble. Hard to say Rose is a better passer because he hasn't had much to pass to, which generally get's Rose a get out of terrible offensive components free card. Still, Rose only produced 1 less assist per game than RW this season, while still having to be the #1 scoring option. Then, on the flipside, while conceding to Durant RW is still only 4 ppg behind Rose, but EVEN THEN Rose is still only averaging 2 more FGA a game than him.

I don't think you can deny that Rose is a better player, but I don't think you can deny Russell Westbrook of having a bit more of a well rounded offensive game than Rose. Rose has the intangibles though, and he's the leader. Can't really put Russ in the same category while he's 2nd fiddle. Put Russ in Rose's place, I think Russell probably puts up more points than Rose did, with about 2.5 less assists. Put Rose in Russ's spot, I think we'd be looking at a different NBA champion.

I agree with all of this, except the last sentence. I feel as if Dallas was destined to win the title this season. Rose probably would have struggled against the zone, and OKC would have ultimately lost.

[Drewski]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

And nope, I'm pretty sure Westbrook is supposed to score in his current role. That's the burden you carry when you're involved in a starting rotation consisting of Kendrick Perkins, Thabo Sefolosha, and Serge Ibaka. If he and Durant don't score, no one does. Not until James Harden comes off the bench at least.

I think this is a very good point that gets overlooked in all this overblown Russell Westbrook is a black hole talk. He needs to do both roles, or OKC is going to sink. They don't have very many offensive options, no matter how many people want to say this team is loaded with talent. Talent? Yes. Offense? There's a reason Russ and KD have to put in, what 50+ PPG between the both of them to be considered a "serious" team. And that's not to take it as Russ does more than Rose, solely an observation about Russ. He needs to score almost as much as Rose does for his team to succeed.