Top-10 Players in the NBA

[AlexBrady]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

Not trying to get into this argument.

But Paul isn't 5'10".

He's 6'1" in shoes, and w/o shoes he is 5'11.75" according to draftexpress (there measurements come from the draft combine)

And on nba-reference.com Zeke is 6'1". Along with on wikipedia, and then when you type in "Isiah Thomas height" on google it says 6'1" is it's best guess because that is what it is listed on 5 other websites

Basically, Paul is a pipsqueak. Which is why most guys can shoot over him with no problem. Thomas was a good 6 foot 3. Wikipedia gets their heights from Basketball Reference, which happens to be inaccurate.

What wait what? Chris Paul not playing hard. Not inspiring his team are you serious? He is probably the greatest leader in the game right now. And nobody and I mean nobody plays as hard or with more passion than CP3. What player are you watching?

Just calling it how I see it. I see lounging without the ball, reactionary on ball defense, and an unwillingness to get to the basket (especially this year).

[Weeks]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

Basically, Paul is a pipsqueak. Which is why most guys can shoot over him with no problem. Thomas was a good 6 foot 3. Wikipedia gets their heights from Basketball Reference, which happens to be inaccurate.

I agree Paul is really short for a PG these days.

But I haven't seen one website that hasn't listed Thomas at 6'1". He even says that he is 6'1" himself:

“I have no problem saying this at all,” he says. “They're all 6-(feet)-9 and Jordan was 6-6 and a half. If they were all 6-1, it wouldn't even be a question. They wouldn't even f---ing rate. If they were all my size, s---, they wouldn't even be talked about.

“I beat the s--- out of them when they were that big. If we were all the same size, f---.” He stops to laugh good-naturedly. “Make them 6-1 and let's go on the court.”

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Isiah-Thomas-living-life-in-exile-shunned-by-NBA-032911

[Freak123]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

To the OP. LeBron is not the most versatile player in history. He still hasn't figured out how to make set up passes or play in the post. Ever hear of guys like Magic Johnson, Dennis Rodman, and Scottie Pippen?
Dwight Howard is a fantastic defender? He sells out for blocks, can't defend face up players, and is suckered out of position by swift ball movement. His DPOY awards are mostly bogus. And where has Chris Paul ever led the Hornets?

I say he is the most versatile player in history because he can pass, shoot, post-up (6th most efficient post-up player last season), defend as well as anybody, is a good leader (despite faltering in The Finals, he still is a very good leader), has patience, good shot-selection, is unselfish, and a freakish athlete.

I don't see anyone else, ever, that can do everything as well as LeBron. Magic couldn't shoot and wasn't a good athlete. Rodman had no offensive game whatsoever, and Pippen couldn't take over a game like LeBron on a consistent basis and couldn't pass as well.

LeBron can do everything and has no real limitations (again, he had one bad series, it was a mental thing, every great player went through it, just ask the man who just beat LeBron in Dirk Nowitzki).

Howard is a terrific defensive-player, and while I think LeBron should have won last year's DPOY award because he defended so many positions so well, Howard changes the game so much on the defensive end of the floor. Every single team that plays the Magic have to change their offensive game-plan because of him as he alters and blocks so many shots. He also grabs tons of defensive rebounds, which does play a role in winning the DPOY award. Look, this is coming from a guy who loves the Heat and hates our rival in the Orlando Magic, but I admit this guy is definitely a terrific defensive player.

Chris Paul hasn't led the Hornets anywhere because his best teammates in his career have been David West and Tyson Chandler. That's simply not good enough. He is a great leader and if you watched the series against the Lakers, you would've seen how well he orchestrates and controls everything in the game. Even if he doesn't get the assist or the points on a given play, he sure helped set it up for that team, as he is responsible for virtually all of their offense.

[Freak123]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

Who would you guys consider the best 11-20 players in the NBA?

I want to try to compile a list of the top 50 based on my method I posted above.

I was going to do top 20 or top 25 in the first place, but then I thought people might not want to do that many and wouldn't even respond to this thread. Here's my next 10 anyways.

11. Amar'e Stoudemire (Great leader and has a good all-around offensive-game, but needs to give more of an effort on the defensive end of the floor.)

12. Carmelo Anthony (Third-best scorer in the league in my opinion, but has never been able to consistently play team basketball and doesn't give consistent effort on the defensive end of the floor.)

13. Steve Nash (Best ball-handler ever and one of the greatest passers ever. Deadly-accurate shooter and constantly winds up in the 50-40-90 club, which is field-goal percentage, three-point percentage, and free-throw percentage respectively. Has never felt the need to work on his defense, but he does at least give an effort on that end of the floor.)

14. Chris Bosh (Great mid-range jump-shooter and is always calm, cool, and collected. Has great athleticism and has a very high basketball I.Q. Despite his demeanor, he is ultra-competitive and wants to win before anything else. He finally completely focused on the defensive end of the floor this year, but still not quite as well-rounded as some others above him. His post-defense needs work but he alters a lot of shots with his quick and sharp rotations.)

15. Rajon Rondo (Deadly-accurate passer and is as demonstratively-competitive as any guy in the league. He is also a great leader, and demands and gets the most out of himself and his teammates. Needs serious work on his jumpshot and his confidence in it, as teams can leave him completely alone and he doesn't do a thing about it, which limits his team's offensive capabilities.)

16. Pau Gasol (Despite a poor showing in the playoffs this year, he is still the best best back-to-the-basket player in the NBA. Has an array of offensive moves, but is not a great leader, doesn't get onto his teammates much for poor showings, and is inattentive on defense at times despite his incredible length. Championship-player when his mind is right and focused though.)

17. Blake Griffin (Only ahead of LaMarcus Aldridge because he can dribble the ball very well and create in that way. He plays a way a superstar plays on the offensive side of the floor despite being a rookie last season. He demands the ball and wants to win, is very mature and will continue to develop into a bigger and brighter star in this league. He has freakish athleticism, but needs more work on his jumpshot and his defense, but has already made significant strides in both areas and shows a willingness to learn from his mistakes and improve.)

18. LaMarcus Aldridge (Great back-to-the-basket player and can dominate a game. Got completely snubbed of an All-Star appearance as he scores at will and can rebound at an efficient rate. Solid on the defensive end, but could definitely use improvement in that area.)

19. Manu Ginobili (One of the most crafty players in the NBA, and even at his age he can dominate a game with his slick-and-smooth style of play that confounds his defenders and leaves them in the dust. Good shooter, slasher, defender, and just a very good versatile player.)

20. Zach Randolph (A wide array of offensive moves makes him nearly impossible to guard at times, but he can get a little too shot-happy and could throw a team off of its offensive rhythm. Also needs work on the defensive end of the floor.)

Feel free to comment guys, and sorry for the double-posting but I didn't want it to be all in one post because it would be really long and hard to read.

[TMagic]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

His assist to turnover ratio will always be great because he is a good handler and caretaker. What he needs to do is develop an off the ball game and curl, pop, or drive off weak side screens. I wouldn't mind Paul at the controls of my club, provided he is surrounded by some serious firepower.

Growing up, my understanding has always been that a PG should be handling the ball the majority of the time for a team. I always assumed their job was to "go get the ball", set up the offense, control the flow of the game, and make plays for the other guys on their team.

Hmm...Never knew that off ball ability was such a big factor when it came to point guard play.

Maybe I'm mistaken?

[Dice]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

I agree Paul is really short for a PG these days.

But I haven't seen one website that has listed Thomas at 6'1". He even says that he is 6'1" himself:



http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/I...-by-NBA-032911

Trust me, I have visual confirmation that Thomas was not 6'3". I have no idea who AlexBrady is talking about.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

They want to make Paul's life easier? Get him some help. Who on that team besides Paul is an above average passer? Can't think of anyone on that team. So off the ball movement does no good without guys who can pass.

My brother and I met Isiah Thomas in person. My brother who is taller than me is about 6'1. When he stood next to Isiah, he was shoulder to shoulder with him. Either your talking about another Zeke OR we met an impersonator. Which I highly doubt.

The kind of help Chris Paul needs just isn't possible in New Orleans. He needs to be surrounded by stars who can pick up the slack when he is inevitably trapped and doubled. I judge players based on their current function within their team which means Paul isn't good enough to win a Title. Jarrett Jack is an above average passer. Maybe you switch him to the lead guard?

I say he is the most versatile player in history because he can pass, shoot, post-up (6th most efficient post-up player last season), defend as well as anybody, is a good leader (despite faltering in The Finals, he still is a very good leader), has patience, good shot-selection, is unselfish, and a freakish athlete.

I don't see anyone else, ever, that can do everything as well as LeBron. Magic couldn't shoot and wasn't a good athlete. Rodman had no offensive game whatsoever, and Pippen couldn't take over a game like LeBron on a consistent basis and couldn't pass as well.

LeBron can do everything and has no real limitations (again, he had one bad series, it was a mental thing, every great player went through it, just ask the man who just beat LeBron in Dirk Nowitzki).

Howard is a terrific defensive-player, and while I think LeBron should have won last year's DPOY award because he defended so many positions so well, Howard changes the game so much on the defensive end of the floor. Every single team that plays the Magic have to change their offensive game-plan because of him as he alters and blocks so many shots. He also grabs tons of defensive rebounds, which does play a role in winning the DPOY award. Look, this is coming from a guy who loves the Heat and hates our rival in the Orlando Magic, but I admit this guy is definitely a terrific defensive player.

Chris Paul hasn't led the Hornets anywhere because his best teammates in his career have been David West and Tyson Chandler. That's simply not good enough. He is a great leader and if you watched the series against the Lakers, you would've seen how well he orchestrates and controls everything in the game. Even if he doesn't get the assist or the points on a given play, he sure helped set it up for that team, as he is responsible for virtually all of their offense.

LeBron only makes assist passes. He doesn't pass to facilitate offense and team concepts which is a crucial part of a championship team. His jump shooting is streaky which makes him highly unreliable when a ballgame is on the line. He can't post up, doesn't have step throughs, drop steps, hooks, or duck unders. His off the ball defense has seriously improved but his on ball D can still be had. Dwyane Wade is the leader of the Heat.

A great leader doesn't handle the ball for such a long time and amp up the pressure on his teammates. And last I checked leaders always come through in the clutch. Magic developed a one handed push shot at the end of his career and had all the athleticism he needed. Rodman had terrific court vision, passing ability, and he was highly active and effective without the ball which fueled his offenses. Pippen routinely dominated ballgames due to his dynamic scoring and lockdown defense. His passing ability exceeded LeBron's because he facilitated offense and wasn't only concerned with assists.

LeBron can do everything, besides shoot, post up, move without the ball, make quick decisions, and win. But other than that he is perfect. He had only one bad series? Need I remind you of the 2010 ECSF vs the Celtics or his previous Finals performance against the Spurs?

The only terrific aspect of Howard's defense is his shot blocking. He is easily drawn to the ball so quick swing passes,dishoffs and active bigs take advantage of him. His defensive rebounding is certainly great but it can't make up for his highly overrated D. The DPOY award should be given to the best on ball defender which would be Tony Allen, Luol Deng, or Dwyane Wade. If you want to watch legitimately great post defense I advise you to watch Desagna Diop's run in the 06 playoffs, spectacular.

Well, David West is a powerhouse scorer and Tyson Chandler is a jumping, blocking maniac who has proven his Title chops. Paul is good at what he does, but for me and for his team it isn't enough.

Growing up, my understanding has always been that a PG should be handling the ball the majority of the time for a team. I always assumed their job was to "go get the ball", set up the offense, control the flow of the game, and make plays for the other guys on their team.

Hmm...Never knew that off ball ability was such a big factor when it came to point guard play.

Maybe I'm mistaken?

Alot of the best points were active without the ball. Magic was an aggressive screener. West was a popper and curler. Stockton loved to reposition and aggressively backpick. Ect. Its especially crucial for Paul since he can be so easily double teamed in his current situation.

[Weeks]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

Trust me, I have visual confirmation that Thomas was not 6'3". I have no idea who AlexBrady is talking about.

Ok, and I made a typo in my post. I meant to say I haven't seen a website not say he was 6'1". They all do.

[Dice]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

The kind of help Chris Paul needs just isn't possible in New Orleans. He needs to be surrounded by stars who can pick up the slack when he is inevitably trapped and doubled. I judge players based on their current function within their team which means Paul isn't good enough to win a Title. Jarrett Jack is an above average passer. Maybe you switch him to the lead guard?

That was the whole point. He doesn't have the help to make him the type of player you think he could be. He needs the ball because he's the best player on the team. You can't run the offense through anybody else on that squad. We all know Paul is not good enough to win a title BUT that doesn't deter him from being a great player. You can take Paul off the team and replace him with any all-time PG: Magic, Thomas, Stockton and they still don't make it to the conference finals. So you put Jack as your lead guard and put Paul as your 2, then you basically have a smallish backcourt that'll get posted up by the bigger guards. And when I say, 'Being an above average passer' I meant from their respective position. Yes, Jack is an above average passer compared to the other overall positions. BUT as a PG, he no better than average.

Alot of the best points were active without the ball. Magic was an aggressive screener. West was a popper and curler. Stockton loved to reposition and aggressively backpick. Ect. Its especially crucial for Paul since he can be so easily double teamed in his current situation.

And as stated above, when a PG doesn't have the players to get him the ball while he's playing off the ball, what good is he? Of course Magic was a great screener when Worthy's got the ball on the wing about to take some poor sap off the dribble. Or if Kareem's got the ball in the post about to sky hook some poor defender to death. Everybody is watching the ball because guys like Worthy and Kareem can score. And if the defense starts to converge on them, they have enough basketball I.Q. to hit the open man, which may be Magic sitting under the basket.

Same with West. Playing with Elgin Baylor earlier in his career and then Goodrich and Chamberlian latter, he can roam free a little to setup those plays because when those other players have the ball defenses have to worry. Same with Stockton. Defenses playing against those Jazz team concentrated more on Karl Malone, which gave Stockton some leeway to roam. And speaking of Stockton, he to me, wasn't as great as most people make him out to be. He was very good BUT I think guys like Magic, Thomas and even Gary Payton was much better than Stockton.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

That was the whole point. He doesn't have the help to make him the type of player you think he could be. He needs the ball because he's the best player on the team. You can't run the offense through anybody else on that squad. We all know Paul is not good enough to win a title BUT that doesn't deter him from being a great player. You can take Paul off the team and replace him with any all-time PG: Magic, Thomas, Stockton and they still don't make it to the conference finals. So you put Jack as your lead guard and put Paul as your 2, then you basically have a smallish backcourt that'll get posted up by the bigger guards. And when I say, 'Being an above average passer' I meant from their respective position. Yes, Jack is an above average passer compared to the other overall positions. BUT as a PG, he no better than average.




And as stated above, when a PG doesn't have the players to get him the ball while he's playing off the ball, what good is he? Of course Magic was a great screener when Worthy's got the ball on the wing about to take some poor sap off the dribble. Or if Kareem's got the ball in the post about to sky hook some poor defender to death. Everybody is watching the ball because guys like Worthy and Kareem can score. And if the defense starts to converge on them, they have enough basketball I.Q. to hit the open man, which may be Magic sitting under the basket.

Same with West. Playing with Elgin Baylor earlier in his career and then Goodrich and Chamberlian latter, he can roam free a little to setup those plays because when those other players have the ball defenses have to worry. Same with Stockton. Defenses playing against those Jazz team concentrated more on Karl Malone, which gave Stockton some leeway to roam. And speaking of Stockton, he to me, wasn't as great as most people make him out to be. He was very good BUT I think guys like Magic, Thomas and even Gary Payton was much better than Stockton.

Paul is a good player for sure. But the fact that the ball can be forced away from him is a huge minus. Magic was so big that he could always see the entire court so double teams were useless. Isiah Thomas was a terrific one on one scorer who could always get his shots off. Stockton could hit open shots, screen himself, and was the best screen/roll player of all time. These guys would certainly get more out of the Hornets than Paul can.

While Magic and West were certainly complimented by great players, they were always playing to win. Magic would have been a great screener in any situation. Ditto for West's curling and popping.

I contend that it was Malone who wasn't all that great. His ability to score one on one was just okay and his go to move was a turnaround jumper. More, every coach knew Malone was bound to force passes, miss good shots, and take bad shots in the clutch. It was Stockton's mastery and decision making in the screen/roll game that turned Malone into a scoring machine.

In formulating the all time best points, notch Magic at the number 1 spot, Stockton at 4, and Thomas at 10. Payton has no place among the all time great points. With his ball domination, overhyped D, confrontational attitude, and limited shooting range he doesn't crack the top 20.

[Freak123]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

I know it was partially my fault for getting off-topic, but just saying I have my opinion and you have yours and that's fine with me. Let's get back to the lists though please, I don't want this to turn into an argument, whether it's constructive or not it doesn't belong in these forums.

[Dice]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

Paul is a good player for sure. But the fact that the ball can be forced away from him is a huge minus. Magic was so big that he could always see the entire court so double teams were useless. Isiah Thomas was a terrific one on one scorer who could always get his shots off. Stockton could hit open shots, screen himself, and was the best screen/roll player of all time. These guys would certainly get more out of the Hornets than Paul can.

While Magic and West were certainly complimented by great players, they were always playing to win. Magic would have been a great screener in any situation. Ditto for West's curling and popping.

I contend that it was Malone who wasn't all that great. His ability to score one on one was just okay and his go to move was a turnaround jumper. More, every coach knew Malone was bound to force passes, miss good shots, and take bad shots in the clutch. It was Stockton's mastery and decision making in the screen/roll game that turned Malone into a scoring machine.

In formulating the all time best points, notch Magic at the number 1 spot, Stockton at 4, and Thomas at 10. Payton has no place among the all time great points. With his ball domination, overhyped D, confrontational attitude, and limited shooting range he doesn't crack the top 20.

You mean to tell me you can name 10 PG's better than Thomas? I'd like to hear this.

And as far as Payton vs Stockton, I didn't see much of nothing of Stockton in their playoff matchups in 1993 and 1996. I honestly thought when the Sonics beat the Jazz in 1993, the younger Payton had a clear advantage over the veteran Stockton. And to me, 1996 Western Conference Finals was no contest. Payton clearly gave Stockton the business in that series. So to not even consider Payton one of the all time great PG while you put Stockton on this pedestal, look at those series against Stockton and come back with another one.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

You mean to tell me you can name 10 PG's better than Thomas? I'd like to hear this.

And as far as Payton vs Stockton, I didn't see much of nothing of Stockton in their playoff matchups in 1993 and 1996. I honestly thought when the Sonics beat the Jazz in 1993, the younger Payton had a clear advantage over the veteran Stockton. And to me, 1996 Western Conference Finals was no contest. Payton clearly gave Stockton the business in that series. So to not even consider Payton one of the all time great PG while you put Stockton on this pedestal, look at those series against Stockton and come back with another one.

For me, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, John Stockton, Walt Frazier, Dennis Johnson, Lenny Wilkens, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash would outrank Isiah.

Payton was a ball dominator and only ran a couple plays (isolations and low screen/rolls). Payton may have played better in 93. But Stockton played solid in 96, he certainly wasn't the reason they lost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGInNPOGg-I&feature=related

[Jukeman]

Lol

10.


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[Dice]

Re: Top-10 Players in the NBA

For me, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, John Stockton, Walt Frazier, Dennis Johnson, Lenny Wilkens, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash would outrank Isiah.

Payton was a ball dominator and only ran a couple plays (isolations and low screen/rolls). Payton may have played better in 93. But Stockton played solid in 96, he certainly wasn't the reason they lost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGInN...eature=related

Magic Johnson, most definantely. Best PG in history.

Never saw Robertson, West, Frazier and Wilkins play. So I can't comment. However, Wilkins is the only one on this list without a championship so I'm spekipcal of him.

Dennis Johnson was a great defensive player but the prime of his career was as a 2-guard. And still at that, he couldn't create offense for himself nor his teammates. And playing with Bird, McHale and Parish would make a lot of PG's look good. Look at Tiny Archibald. This guy was washed up when he got to the Celtics and he garnered a second career and a championship as their starting PG. As good as DJ was, he was another one who I wouldn't consider hall of fame material. When he was on the Celtic teams, he was at best their 4th option. Defenses weren't centering their game plan to stop DJ. I'll pass on him.

As far as Jason Kidd, it's just too bad during the prime of his career he wasn't a great shooter. It wasn't until afterwords, he decided to be a better shooter. If he would have developed a consistent jumpshot shot during his prime like he has now, I might have considered him. But his career .401 FG% scares me and his .396 FG% for the playoffs scares me even more. Thomas had many memorable playoff moments and 2 championships as the team's best player. I don't think Kidd can top that. Kidd, great player and will be in the hall of fame BUT I'd rather take my chances with Thomas.

Steve Nash? Your talking about a guy being defensively deficient? Here is the perfect example. And maybe your one of those apologist for Nash's defense because he played under two of the two most anti-defensive coaches in Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni. But still. No excuse. For Nash to keep getting trashed in the playoffs by lesser PG's like Tony Parker and Mike Bibby, I have issues with that. Great player offensively. Lousy defensively.

And as far as Stockton and Payton. I suggest you watch that 1996 series again. Payton clearly won that matchup. It doesn't matter that Karl Malone lost the Jazz that series. Stockton could not hold his man, Gary Payton, from being the MVP of that series.