Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

[23]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

Standard has definitely been lowered then

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

I think so too.

This may be a VERY crude way to look at it. But playing ball, I'm not all that worried about matching up with an opposing guard that has great fundamentals. I can guard him all day.

The players that I struggle the most with are the ones who are crazy quick and can finish over the top of me, whether it be a jumper or a lay up. Then you give them space, and they can pop the jumper.

It's funny because since I've moved down here to Miami, at the gym I work at, I'm one of the better athletes anytime I play. And I can pretty much handle any guy that I guard.

But then there's always a time where another team has a good athlete and immediately, my teammates always say "you got him right?". lol

I agree with this. My coach in highschool was a former college coach and I was trained by the guy that trained Steve Nash and they all told me that I was fundamentally the best player they've ever seen... I started probably 5 games my senior year (granted most people believe my coach was seriously racist against white kids, but that's another issue lol).

Even though I was fundamentally incredibly sound, I couldn't take over games the way the bigger, more athletic kids could. Shooting the ball? I knocked down 50-60% of my 3's, almost never let my man score on me, and almost never turned the ball over, but I still couldn't crack my team's starting lineup because my lack of athleticism made me "soft" in my coach's eyes (even though I would break my nose or toes and not even leave the game) and my lack of athleticism meant that the other players needed to set screens to get me a little extra space so that I could get my shot off since my jumping ability is pretty limited.

The thing that I've found is that if your fundamentals are rock solid, you can compete with anyone. Here at Syracuse University, I'll play with a bunch of scrubs and put up like 8 points, 5 assists, and a few rebounds (in games of 1 and 2 up to 15). In games against Mookie Jones and some of the football players and other guys that tried out for the basketball team, I'll put up pretty much the same exact numbers. I can hang with anybody. But it's the guys with elite athleticism and some fundamentals that can dominate the competition, it doesn't really work if you have elite fundamentals and some athleticism (at least for guards I feel this way).

Sorry if this came off like I was trying to toot my own horn or anything like that, but when I read what TMagic said about the guys with great fundamentals not scaring him, it reminded me how all the college coaches and trainers used to tell me all my moves were fundamentally perfect and yet I was nothing more than a 6th man for my high school.

[Dice]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

I agree with this. My coach in highschool was a former college coach and I was trained by the guy that trained Steve Nash and they all told me that I was fundamentally the best player they've ever seen... I started probably 5 games my senior year (granted most people believe my coach was seriously racist against white kids, but that's another issue lol).

Even though I was fundamentally incredibly sound, I couldn't take over games the way the bigger, more athletic kids could. Shooting the ball? I knocked down 50-60% of my 3's, almost never let my man score on me, and almost never turned the ball over, but I still couldn't crack my team's starting lineup because my lack of athleticism made me "soft" in my coach's eyes (even though I would break my nose or toes and not even leave the game) and my lack of athleticism meant that the other players needed to set screens to get me a little extra space so that I could get my shot off since my jumping ability is pretty limited.

The thing that I've found is that if your fundamentals are rock solid, you can compete with anyone. Here at Syracuse University, I'll play with a bunch of scrubs and put up like 8 points, 5 assists, and a few rebounds (in games of 1 and 2 up to 15). In games against Mookie Jones and some of the football players and other guys that tried out for the basketball team, I'll put up pretty much the same exact numbers. I can hang with anybody. But it's the guys with elite athleticism and some fundamentals that can dominate the competition, it doesn't really work if you have elite fundamentals and some athleticism (at least for guards I feel this way).

Sorry if this came off like I was trying to toot my own horn or anything like that, but when I read what TMagic said about the guys with great fundamentals not scaring him, it reminded me how all the college coaches and trainers used to tell me all my moves were fundamentally perfect and yet I was nothing more than a 6th man for my high school.

This is one of the reasons why basketball is down compared to yesteryear. We all blame players for their lack of skills but I also put that on coaching, especially at the lower levels of basketball.

Too many coaches look too much at athleticism. And it's not a bad thing but to emphasize it more than skills and fundamentals not only hurts that player but the team.

Sometimes though we look at some players with elite athleticism and forget they he is also a fundamentally sound player. Many of the young kids who never watched Michael Jordan play a full game always watch his YouTube clips and amazed at how great of a Dunkers and leaper he was. Which was the case. But that guy was the most fundamentally sound player in the history of basketball. He'd play lockdown defense. Had a money jumpshot. Excellent ball handles. Great court awareness.

And if you want and example of a fundamentally sound player trumping an elite athletic player, watch some of those Larry Bird vs Domnique Wilkins battles in the mid 80's. Bird was the least athletic player you could possibly imagine. But that guy was probably one of the 10 best players in NBA history. Bird used to take advantage of Wilkins. And to Wilkins credit, it wasn't like he was just some dumb athlete. He was a skilled basketball player as well. Just not as skilled as Bird.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

This is one of the reasons why basketball is down compared to yesteryear. We all blame players for their lack of skills but I also put that on coaching, especially at the lower levels of basketball.

Too many coaches look too much at athleticism. And it's not a bad thing but to emphasize it more than skills and fundamentals not only hurts that player but the team.

Sometimes though we look at some players with elite athleticism and forget they he is also a fundamentally sound player. Many of the young kids who never watched Michael Jordan play a full game always watch his YouTube clips and amazed at how great of a Dunkers and leaper he was. Which was the case. But that guy was the most fundamentally sound player in the history of basketball. He'd play lockdown defense. Had a money jumpshot. Excellent ball handles. Great court awareness.

And if you want and example of a fundamentally sound player trumping an elite athletic player, watch some of those Larry Bird vs Domnique Wilkins battles in the mid 80's. Bird was the least athletic player you could possibly imagine. But that guy was probably one of the 10 best players in NBA history. Bird used to take advantage of Wilkins. And to Wilkins credit, it wasn't like he was just some dumb athlete. He was a skilled basketball player as well. Just not as skilled as Bird.

Agreed, but I'll say the Celtics played much better as a team using screens and stuff to give Bird more of an advantage (whereas I had my high school coach that refused to do that at all, everything was dribble drive, versus our cross-town rivals that was coached by a really old guy that asked me to start for them instead because he liked to run traditional screening offenses)

I admittedly could be wrong because I wasn't fortunate enough to watch much of Larry Bird in my lifetime (I really wish I had because I loved the style of basketball back then), but Bird doesn't seem like the kinda guy that would kill you 1 on 1 the way a guy like Carmelo Anthony can. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that though because I honestly don't know, but that's the way it seems with him.

[Dice]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

I admittedly could be wrong because I wasn't fortunate enough to watch much of Larry Bird in my lifetime (I really wish I had because I loved the style of basketball back then), but Bird doesn't seem like the kinda guy that would kill you 1 on 1 the way a guy like Carmelo Anthony can. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that though because I honestly don't know, but that's the way it seems with him.

Bird wasn't a traditional one-on-one "break you off the dribble" type player. But where he would kill you one-on-one is in the post. One of the most underrated post players of all time.

[TMagic]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

I don't know about far better there numbers are comparable for the most part. Them when you consider Duncan did this all while playing beside David Robinson it's pretty astounding to consider his numbers were that good with a guy like that right beside him.

But yeah like Pack said pretty much everyone conceded the athleticism to this generation. Athleticism can only take you so far because once you start to break down no one cares that you were once one of the fastest from end to end on the court. That's why Kobe had aged so well, he had world class athleticism in his younger days but he honed his skills (specifically that deadly post game) to a point where once he slows down (which he will) he can still be effective.

I was referring to Duncan today, to Griffin now.

But even in a comparison to young Timmy, the point still stands. Griffin is able to put up similar numbers than the "Big Fundamental" using almost solely his athleticism.

And David Robinson was not at the apex of his career at that time. Timmy became the man in San Antonio almost as soon as he got there. Plus he had better numbers playing WITH the Admiral than without him. Which kinda nullifies the notion that without David Robinson on his team, he would have put up better numbers.

I also think Duncan's athleticism has been vastly underrated his entire career because he's so damn good fundamentally. It wasn't like he was some lumbering giant out there.

But just look at who's getting picked up first in drafts. Look at the "elite" class of NBA stars. Or compare players with similar roles who are more athletic to those who are less.

Dwight vs. Pau...
A'mare vs. Al J...
Wade vs. Ginobli
Westbrook vs. Maynor
Rose vs. Hinrich
LeBron vs. BRoy or Hedo
J Rich vs. J Redick

Athleticism is a huge factor in the sport of BBall. While I'm saying this, understand that I also think skill is a huge asset as well.

My point in bringing this up is to note how much of a factor pure athleticism is. I don't think it is being overlooked, but undervalued when comparing today's players to the past. It's a big reason why SHAQ and Jordan were the most dominant players of all time. And it is also the reason why I give the edge to players of today's generation.

[Pims33]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

Simply put, no. Maybe you got a case for athleticism, but not for talent/skill.
Are you really watching the games? Mostly isolation? That's whats happening in today's game. You saw far more TEAM play back then, even from superstars. As far as more post-ups, yes, but you had a lot of talented big men, now you got maybe a handful.
Plus rules really benefit the superstar right now, travels are called rarely, no handchecking, phantom calls, lay a finger on somebody and you got a technical, really disgusting sometimes and I'm not blaming that on the players though. You got really great talent right now but not like say in the 80's, and the rules, the way the game its played sometimes, really makes it disgusting on some occasions.

[23]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

Numbers dont tell the whole story man

Duncan was doing work while he ended up with what he had, and you barely even noticed... you would look up and the dude would have 27-19-14 or something wild like that on a given night.

The athletic stuff is a mask for what has changed within the game.. Griffin will probably never win an MVP off of his athleticism, nor any finals MVPs or anything that Duncan has by the hard work he has put in from what he learned.

Some things are irreplaceable no matter how high you can jump.. Shoot there are plenty of instances where players ended up straight fails from James White to Gerald Green to Steve Francis and so on, which a guy like Jason Kidd is still going strong looking like he can play forever coming off of a micro fracture surgery

[Pims33]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

I was referring to Duncan today, to Griffin now.

But even in a comparison to young Timmy, the point still stands. Griffin is able to put up similar numbers than the "Big Fundamental" using almost solely his athleticism.

And David Robinson was not at the apex of his career at that time. Timmy became the man in San Antonio almost as soon as he got there. Plus he had better numbers playing WITH the Admiral than without him. Which kinda nullifies the notion that without David Robinson on his team, he would have put up better numbers.

I also think Duncan's athleticism has been vastly underrated his entire career because he's so damn good fundamentally. It wasn't like he was some lumbering giant out there.

But just look at who's getting picked up first in drafts. Look at the "elite" class of NBA stars. Or compare players with similar roles who are more athletic to those who are less.

Dwight vs. Pau...
A'mare vs. Al J...
Wade vs. Ginobli
Westbrook vs. Maynor
Rose vs. Hinrich
LeBron vs. BRoy or Hedo
J Rich vs. J Redick

Athleticism is a huge factor in the sport of BBall. While I'm saying this, understand that I also think skill is a huge asset as well.

My point in bringing this up is to note how much of a factor pure athleticism is. I don't think it is being overlooked, but undervalued when comparing today's players to the past. It's a big reason why SHAQ and Jordan were the most dominant players of all time. And it is also the reason why I give the edge to players of today's generation.

Simply look at two of the best players ever, the best players in the 80's, Magic and Bird, not your really athletic player, and the 80's was full of really athletic players with skill, but those two players unbeliavable skill put them on top.
If you think MJ dominated due to athleticism you're very wrong, he dominated because to add to that freakish athleticism he had amazing skill.

[Pims33]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

Numbers dont tell the whole story man

Duncan was doing work while he ended up with what he had, and you barely even noticed... you would look up and the dude would have 27-19-14 or something wild like that on a given night.

The athletic stuff is a mask for what has changed within the game.. Griffin will probably never win an MVP off of his athleticism, nor any finals MVPs or anything that Duncan has by the hard work he has put in from what he learned.

Some things are irreplaceable no matter how high you can jump.. Shoot there are plenty of instances where players ended up straight fails from James White to Gerald Green to Steve Francis and so on, which a guy like Jason Kidd is still going strong looking like he can play forever coming off of a micro fracture surgery

Great point. The NBA needs athleticism, now more than ever, you need to be athletic to be there also of course, the rules have changed and they really benefit the superstars, the offense and really athletic players, you can do damage by being an athletic freak and you'll def be popular and have great highlight reels, but if don't have/develop really great skills you will never be mentioned with the best, you'll never be a MVP, a champion, a winner

[RedSceptile]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

Dwight vs. Pau...
A'mare vs. Al J...
Wade vs. Ginobli
Westbrook vs. Maynor
Rose vs. Hinrich
LeBron vs. BRoy or Hedo
J Rich vs. J Redick

For Dwight versus Pau see AlexBrady
Amare versus Al Jefferson neither really play defense and they both pretty much score at the same rate (Amare more efficiently)
Wade versus Ginobili is a toss up. When healthy Ginobili is up there but Wade had him beat. They're both horribly inefficient from mid range but Ginobili has the edge in 3 point shooting.
Westbrook versus Maynor isn't fair (same for Rose versus Hinrich), Maynor is Westbrook's backup. A better comparison would be Nash or Kidd someone else that's elite.
Brandon Roy has no knees. Of course LeBron has Hedo beat he's barely a basketball player anymore.

[TMagic]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

For Dwight versus Pau see AlexBrady
Amare versus Al Jefferson neither really play defense and they both pretty much score at the same rate (Amare more efficiently)
Wade versus Ginobili is a toss up. When healthy Ginobili is up there but Wade had him beat. They're both horribly inefficient from mid range but Ginobili has the edge in 3 point shooting.
Westbrook versus Maynor isn't fair (same for Rose versus Hinrich), Maynor is Westbrook's backup. A better comparison would be Nash or Kidd someone else that's elite.
Brandon Roy has no knees. Of course LeBron has Hedo beat he's barely a basketball player anymore.

Amare is going to be chosen over Jefferson 10/10 times. Ginobli is never mentioned among the elite like Wade is. There is a reason for that. So I don't think it's really fair to marginalize the difference between them in an effort to solidify your argument.

And my point in comparing the others is exactly as it appears. An elite athlete versus one that is not...

What separates Rose from Hinrich? Westbrook from Maynor? Is it their skill? Not necessarily. I would say that Hinrich and Maynor are the better shooters, aren't as careless with the ball, and can set up teammates just as well, if not better, than Rose and Westbrook. But they are not the superior athletes that Rose and Westbrook are. This is what gives them that overall separation in terms of ability.

Likewise, Hedo and Roy are not the athletes that LeBron is. But they conceivably have some of the same skills as LeBron does. Plus they are better shooters and have an actual post game. But LeBron is head and shoulders above them. Again, because he is a far superior athlete.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

I'm lost because I thought folks conceded that the players of today have the Atleticism edge over the old generation of players but yet it's still be argued? Unless I'm missing something LOL

Likewise, Hedo and Roy are not the athletes that LeBron is. But they conceivably have some of the same skills as LeBron does. Plus they are better shooters and have an actual post game

Remove Brandon Roy and I can agree with this.

[DukeC]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

I'm lost because I thought folks conceded that the players of today have the Atleticism edge over the old generation of players but yet it's still be argued? Unless I'm missing something LOL


Remove Brandon Roy and I can agree with this.

I think he was talking Brandon before his knees gave out on him. Before that you could argue that B-Roy was a Top 5, maybe Top 3 shooting guard in the league.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Are The Current Generation Of NBA Players The Most Talented/Skilled We've Seen?

Man that seems so long ago to the point where I forgot the dude was actually healthy