Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

[Dice]

According to Chicago Tribune Bulls beat reporter KC Johnson, Jerry Krause was not named as one of the finalist for the 2012 basketball HOF class. I thought it was very interesting, considering he's never been a finalist and he's the architect of one of the greatest dynasties the NBA has seen in the 1990's Chicago Bulls.

I know a lot of Bulls fans share disdain for the guy BUT just based off the merits of his work, is he deserving of HOF status?

[Altimus]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Yes.

Look at how the roster changed but the success continued. Obviously Jordan and Pippen were huge factors but you still need to surround them with winning players. Kukoc, Rodman, Kerr, etc.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Do I think he is a Hall of Famer? Absolutely not. Krause was essentially a bean counter with a limited understanding of the game. Will the know-nothing voters deem him worthy? Probably.

[Dice]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Do I think he is a Hall of Famer? Absolutely not. Krause was essentially a bean counter with a limited understanding of the game. Will the know-nothing voters deem him worthy? Probably.

Well, you cannot deny his credentials as GM of the Bulls. We can all pick at his bad choices in drafts and free agent signings(which any GM with over 10 years experience can happen to) BUT he constructed one of the best dynasties the league has ever seen. And during the era of free agency and salary cap.

It's easy to say that, he had Michael Jordan from the start. BUT what about Scottie Pippen? What about Horace Grant? About about Toni Kukoc? Trading for Dennis Rodman? Making Phil Jackson coach of the Bulls? Moves that was vital to the Bulls championship runs. And I hate to tell you BUT Jordan ain't winning six championships unless Krause pulls off the Pippen for Olden Polyncye trade during the 1987 NBA draft.

[Altimus]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Well, you cannot deny his credentials as GM of the Bulls. We can all pick at his bad choices in drafts and free agent signings(which any GM with over 10 years experience can happen to) BUT he constructed one of the best dynasties the league has ever seen. And during the era of free agency and salary cap.

It's easy to say that, he had Michael Jordan from the start. BUT what about Scottie Pippen? What about Horace Grant? About about Toni Kukoc? Trading for Dennis Rodman? Making Phil Jackson coach of the Bulls? Moves that was vital to the Bulls championship runs. And I hate to tell you BUT Jordan ain't winning six championships unless Krause pulls off the Pippen for Olden Polyncye trade during the 1987 NBA draft.

Damn, never thought we would be dropping Olden Polyncye's name on the forums.

[Dice]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Damn, never thought we would be dropping Olden Polyncye's name on the forums.

Yeah, I know right.

BUT most Bulls fans, and others around the league, look too much into the MJ vs Krause thing. Yeah, he had his bouts with MJ BUT that's because MJ was trying to be the general manager at that time as well. Old timers forget how vocal Jordan was to Krause's personnel decisions. And then when Krause finally makes a mistake they like to say, "See, Jordan told you so BUT you didn't listen". But what about the other 4 right decisions that Krause made previous?

Funny story about GM Jordan and Krause. Krause for the first time in his life was going to listen to Jordan and Draft Joe Wolf in the 1987 NBA draft over Horace Grant because Wolf was a North Carolina guy. Doug Collins and the coaching staff had to beg Karuse to pick Horace Grant and Krause eventually changed his mind. Can you imagine what would have happened if the Bulls picked Joe Wolf? I don't even want to think about it.

Jordan didn't like when Krause traded Oakley for Cartwright in 1989 and was very pissed about that trade back then. Ultimately, Cartwright was the starting center for the Bulls championship teams from 1991-1993. Charles Oakley is still ring-less. Jordan later on admitted that Krause might of been right on that trade. I think he was right.

Then we have the Toni Kukoc incident. Of course, Jordan and Pippen took offense to this and basically blasted Krause off the court and Kukoc on the court in the 1992 Olympics, just like the Heat did to Lin in last night's game. However, Kukoc was instrumental to the Bulls second three-peat run they had in to mid-to-late 90's.

NOW this is not to say that Krause is clean in all this. Krause was an egotistical person who was very arrogant. He had the same strong personality as MJ, which is why they clashed so much. BUT look at it like this, how offended would MJ be if Krause told him he need to work on his left hand dribble. Or told him he didn't play good enough defense? Or he needed to improve on his shooting? Krause would have been insane to tell Jordan that BUT yet Jordan can tell Krause how to do his job?

Personally, I didn't like Krause BUT you cannot deny his record.

[wwharton]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Well, you cannot deny his credentials as GM of the Bulls. We can all pick at his bad choices in drafts and free agent signings(which any GM with over 10 years experience can happen to) BUT he constructed one of the best dynasties the league has ever seen. And during the era of free agency and salary cap.

It's easy to say that, he had Michael Jordan from the start. BUT what about Scottie Pippen? What about Horace Grant? About about Toni Kukoc? Trading for Dennis Rodman? Making Phil Jackson coach of the Bulls? Moves that was vital to the Bulls championship runs. And I hate to tell you BUT Jordan ain't winning six championships unless Krause pulls off the Pippen for Olden Polyncye trade during the 1987 NBA draft.

Some things definitely fell into place... especially when we talk about the 2nd three peat. The Rodman addition is one I won't give him any credit for. The only question there was whether or not he could coexist on that team and if Phil could handle him. I'm sure he got word from Phil, MJ and Scottie to sign off on that one. And considering the hype Kukoc got it was huge for him to come in as a bench player on that great team rather than earlier and as Pippen's replacement (which was what the big fear was when Krause began talking about him). And getting Jordan at #3 and having him develop the way he did definitely wasn't a result of Krause, or because of any foresight.

With that said, I think he belongs in the Hall. These situations are true for just about anyone in the HOF of any sport. Like you just said, as great as Jordan was, his legacy would be different if certain pieces weren't placed around him. Who knows why there was an insistence to bring in a wing player like Pippen over the center the team seemed to desperately need BUT what would we be saying about the Blazers if they felt the same way when they drafted Bowie ahead of Jordan? Grant was obviously huge too, as was Phil (though that may have just been a lucky pull). But what about Kerr, Hodges and Armstrong? Do these guys get run on ANY other team at that time? Hell, Rodney Monroe couldn't get on a team bc he was a small SG who couldn't really play point... teams just didn't sign them but they worked great on that Bulls team. Then going against the mold to bring in Harper... he definitely made enough "right" decisions to get as much credit for that dynasty as everyone else we talk about.

[Dice]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Some things definitely fell into place... especially when we talk about the 2nd three peat. The Rodman addition is one I won't give him any credit for. The only question there was whether or not he could coexist on that team and if Phil could handle him. I'm sure he got word from Phil, MJ and Scottie to sign off on that one. And considering the hype Kukoc got it was huge for him to come in as a bench player on that great team rather than earlier and as Pippen's replacement (which was what the big fear was when Krause began talking about him). And getting Jordan at #3 and having him develop the way he did definitely wasn't a result of Krause, or because of any foresight.

With that said, I think he belongs in the Hall. These situations are true for just about anyone in the HOF of any sport. Like you just said, as great as Jordan was, his legacy would be different if certain pieces weren't placed around him. Who knows why there was an insistence to bring in a wing player like Pippen over the center the team seemed to desperately need BUT what would we be saying about the Blazers if they felt the same way when they drafted Bowie ahead of Jordan? Grant was obviously huge too, as was Phil (though that may have just been a lucky pull). But what about Kerr, Hodges and Armstrong? Do these guys get run on ANY other team at that time? Hell, Rodney Monroe couldn't get on a team bc he was a small SG who couldn't really play point... teams just didn't sign them but they worked great on that Bulls team. Then going against the mold to bring in Harper... he definitely made enough "right" decisions to get as much credit for that dynasty as everyone else we talk about.

I'd say one thing fell into place for him...he inherited the greatest player of all time to start his career as GM of the Bulls. Yes, it wasn't Krause that drafted Jordan BUT the previous GM, Rod Thorn. For some reason or another people see that as a negative against Krause. He basically did a masterful job of building the Bulls around Jordan. Not many GM's can do this. BUT having the a great player doesn't automatically wins championships. Ask Danny Ferry how many championships he won when he inherited LeBron as Cavs GM. On the Bulls first championship team in 1991, the only players left from the team he inherited in 1986 was Jordan and John Paxson.

And as far as the Rodman situation, I think he deserves credit for it. I don't think it was as much as a no-brainer as most people think. There were a lot of teams who would not touch Dennis Rodman, despite the fact that you had the greatest rebounder of all time at the prime of his career. The Spurs at the time was still a championship team and they let one of their key guys go. That sends a strong single to the league when stuff like that happens. BUT Krause took a gamble, and it paid off. And Krause went against his instincts on this one to ask Jordan and Pippen for their blessing. As I stated before, Krause normally did not listen to them. Most GM's in his position wouldn't have had the balls to make that move, considering the antics Rodman pulled before he left the Spurs. Krause saw a fit and made the gamble.

[SidVish]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

If Phil Knight is in the Hall of Fame then Jerry Krause definitely belongs.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Well, you cannot deny his credentials as GM of the Bulls. We can all pick at his bad choices in drafts and free agent signings(which any GM with over 10 years experience can happen to) BUT he constructed one of the best dynasties the league has ever seen. And during the era of free agency and salary cap.

It's easy to say that, he had Michael Jordan from the start. BUT what about Scottie Pippen? What about Horace Grant? About about Toni Kukoc? Trading for Dennis Rodman? Making Phil Jackson coach of the Bulls? Moves that was vital to the Bulls championship runs. And I hate to tell you BUT Jordan ain't winning six championships unless Krause pulls off the Pippen for Olden Polyncye trade during the 1987 NBA draft.

Credit Phil Jackson for getting his players to commit to five man basketball in the incredible Triangle offense. As great as Jordan and Pippen were, they never won squat until Jackson arrived on the scene. While Krause did acquire good role players, its doubtful he had a full understanding of what their function would be. Jackson masterfully concealed the serious weaknesses of guys like Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Toni Kukoc, Randy Brown, Jed Buechler, Bill Wennington, and B.J. Armstrong.

His overhyping of Toni Kukoc was laughable. Yeah, Kukoc was a very good offensive player who could create his own shots against anybody. But he couldn't guard anyone on defense and didn't approach the all around brilliance of Jordan and Pippen. This worshipping of Kukoc probably alienated MJ and led to his retirement.

Credit Krause for blowing up the Bulls dynasty too soon. His rebuilding efforts were also sub-par. Somehow, he alienated almost every person he came into contact with. Probably because he was unbearably arrogant and two-faced.

[Altimus]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Credit Phil Jackson for getting his players to commit to five man basketball in the incredible Triangle offense. As great as Jordan and Pippen were, they never won squat until Jackson arrived on the scene. While Krause did acquire good role players, its doubtful he had a full understanding of what their function would be. Jackson masterfully concealed the serious weaknesses of guys like Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Toni Kukoc, Randy Brown, Jed Buechler, Bill Wennington, and B.J. Armstrong.

His overhyping of Toni Kukoc was laughable. Yeah, Kukoc was a very good offensive player who could create his own shots against anybody. But he couldn't guard anyone on defense and didn't approach the all around brilliance of Jordan and Pippen. This worshipping of Kukoc probably alienated MJ and led to his retirement.

Credit Krause for blowing up the Bulls dynasty too soon. His rebuilding efforts were also sub-par. Somehow, he alienated almost every person he came into contact with. Probably because he was unbearably arrogant and two-faced.

How do you come to this conclusion?

[Dice]

Re: Do you think Jerry Krause is a HOFer?

Credit Phil Jackson for getting his players to commit to five man basketball in the incredible Triangle offense. As great as Jordan and Pippen were, they never won squat until Jackson arrived on the scene. While Krause did acquire good role players, its doubtful he had a full understanding of what their function would be. Jackson masterfully concealed the serious weaknesses of guys like Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Toni Kukoc, Randy Brown, Jed Buechler, Bill Wennington, and B.J. Armstrong.

His overhyping of Toni Kukoc was laughable. Yeah, Kukoc was a very good offensive player who could create his own shots against anybody. But he couldn't guard anyone on defense and didn't approach the all around brilliance of Jordan and Pippen. This worshipping of Kukoc probably alienated MJ and led to his retirement.

Credit Krause for blowing up the Bulls dynasty too soon. His rebuilding efforts were also sub-par. Somehow, he alienated almost every person he came into contact with. Probably because he was unbearably arrogant and two-faced.

So Krause get no credit for bringing in Jackson and Tex Winters as his first hires of the Bulls coaching staff? You got to remember, when Phil started looking for his first coaching gig, not a lot of teams wanted to hire him. Not sure why BUT Phil was not a hot commodity. Krause and Phil were good friends before and Krause followed Jackson's career as a CBA coach. As soon as Krause got hired as Bulls GM, he immediately brought Phil on board as Collins assistant. So if anything, if your praising Jackson for how he handled the team on court, Krause gets credit for giving Phil his first coaching job.

And no one is hyping Kukoc. BUT he was an instrumental piece in the Bulls second 3-peat. Could they have won it without him? Probably. BUT his play off the bench provided firepower that no other team during that time had. No team during that time had a better bench player than Kukoc. What he brought to the team was valuable. He may not have been a great defensive player but he played within the Bulls defensive scheme and he did what he was told. Despite his limitations on defense, it wasn't enough to hurt the team. They were still an elite defense with him on the court. And I'm not understanding how Kukoc forced Jordan into retirement. You lost me on that one. I'd be more inclined to believe the urban legend of the "NBA wanted to suspend Jordan so he ended up retiring" than to believe that Kukoc caused his retirement.

And yes, he did a bang up job on his rebuilding after the Jordan era. I cannot argue that. BUT understand that a lot of the players that he drafted were not all bad and some of them actually became decent players after they left the Bulls. Guys like Elton Brand, Ron Artest, Jamal Crawford, Tyson Chandler and Roger Mason. All became decent player after they left the Bulls. I think Krause's problem was with the coach he choose after Phil Jackson, Tim Floyd. He was the real problem. BUT Krause's stubbornness lead him down the path to infamy. Then he makes an even worse decision to replace Floyd with Bill Cartwright in 2002.

You get no argument from me on the type of person Krause is. BUT personal feelings aside, for the most part, he knew what he was doing. Elgin Baylor is a real nice guy BUT as a GM he sucked big time.

[Nathan_OS]

Did Jerry Krause break Chicago Up?

I'm reading this book, and it's saying there was a war between Jordan - Pippen - Krause.

Is he the reason the dynasty broke up?

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Did Jerry Krause break Chicago Up?

Merging both Jerry Krause threads.

[Dice]

Re: Did Jerry Krause break Chicago Up?

I'm reading this book, and it's saying there was a war between Jordan - Pippen - Krause.

Is he the reason the dynasty broke up?

The feud goes beyond Jordan-Pippen-Krause. You can add Phil Jackson’s name in there as well. The Jackson-Krause feud is what really broke apart the dynasty. Jackson and Krause had been friends for years up until the early 90’s. Something happened between the two during that time and as the Bulls won more titles the relationship got progressively worse. Krause knew the day would come when Jackson would bolt once his contract with the Bulls was done. And that he did in 1998. Now Krause had been actively looking for a successor. You would have thought that this would be a great opportunity for any coach to jump into a team during its dynasty years. However, Jordan clearly stated that if Jackson goes, then I go. Well, there goes getting a solid successor for the Bulls coaching job. Jackson’s departure starts the domino effect. Jordan retires. Pippen gets traded. Rodman leaves. And since no one wants to coach the most successful team of the decade, Krause has to settle with his new buddy, Tim Floyd.

Is Krause solely responsible for the break up? I wouldn’t put the entire thing on him. He does have a huge role in it BUT it’s not like he had a choice during that time. Krause could have gotten on his knees and begged Jackson to stay and Jackson still would have left. BUT when I think about it and think about the next season, which was the strike shorten season of 1999, would the Bulls have won the title during that time? Considering that their last championship in 1998, they were running on fumes and fortunately they pulled it out from straight will. NOW the next season they played 50 games in 90 days? The Bulls was one of the oldest teams in the league and would they have survived that season? NOW, I do believe that if the 99 season was a normal 82-game season with a training camp and games more spaced out, I think the Bulls could have pulled out their fourth straight championship. BUT the condensed schedule in 99 was more grueling than the condensed schedule we’re seeing this year. Maybe that was the right time to break up the team? To me, it would have been sad to see them end the dynasty on the court. This is what makes the dynasty of the Bulls mystical. A part of me is glad that the dynasty ended off the court.

The way Krause handled it is what myself and other Bulls fans really get up in arms about. However, the way things played out, that was the right time to end it.