'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

[BlueNGold]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

It wasn't even just Jordan, Pippen and Malone that had issues with Isiah. His relationship with Magic was strained after the HIV thing and Isiah making the notion that Magic could be gay and that's how he contracted the virus. Also, there was the situation between Bird and Isiah with Isiah making that idiotic comment about how Larry Bird was only getting attention because he was white, or whatever it was.

That right there is almost half the team that hates him. You can't tell me the chemistry of the Dream Team wouldn't have been damaged with Isiah included.

[justblaze09]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

If any of you get the chance, read the section on Isiah in "The Book of Basketball" and you will understand why Isiah had to be left off.

[VDusen04]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

It wasn't even just Jordan, Pippen and Malone that had issues with Isiah. His relationship with Magic was strained after the HIV thing and Isiah making the notion that Magic could be gay and that's how he contracted the virus. Also, there was the situation between Bird and Isiah with Isiah making that idiotic comment about how Larry Bird was only getting attention because he was white, or whatever it was.

That right there is almost half the team that hates him. You can't tell me the chemistry of the Dream Team wouldn't have been damaged with Isiah included.

To restate once more, I completely understand there were reasons Isiah Thomas was left off the team. I merely made an initial objection to the idea that Thomas was left off the team because he somehow did douchebag things while other players did not. Also, I'm well aware of the HIV remarks. Those remarks were referenced in the article cited earlier this page.

I believe a hoard of criticisms could have been cited for many members of that Dream Team. I think the only difference is Michael Jordan was more or less in control of the show, so he was in position to cite (or leave others to cite) Isiah's shortcomings. Had Jordan not been there, Scottie Pippen and Karl Malone's displeasure with Isiah's willingness to not back down and do whatever it took to win on the basketball court would not have been enough to withhold him from the team.

I cannot say these things are directly correlated, but I feel as though we all may have had moments (or extended moments) where we had rivals we either hated for the manner with which they played or we were the ones who were hated ourselves for how we played. I know I was that guy. It was deeper rooted on real basketball teams, but it occurs in streetball just as well. What tends to happen is when two rivals find themselves on the same team, things have a way of working out. It becomes clear each player merely wants to succeed. It's similar to the Dennis Rodman/Ron Artest debate, where players hate playing against them, but love playing with them.

Karl Malone:

"I never had any issue with Isiah. I think guys realized that it didn't matter who was on the team. I know I could have cared less. It didn't matter to me who was on that team. I was a part of something great."

Regarding Magic Johnson, it's not as if Isiah Thomas was the only player from that Dream Team who'd end up making a misguided comment after Magic's announcement. Karl Malone's ignorance shined through just as well (I believe post-Olympics), when he fought the idea of Magic making a comeback. Magic on that:

"It's just like a good friend saying we cannot hang out any more," he said of players coming out against him. "I know 80 percent of them real well, and it did hurt. Karl hurt me, of course. I'm human. I'm hurt today not being out there. The lawsuit hurts. I think maybe Karl should've called. He was at the Forum a couple days during preseason. He could've called out of respect."

And again, many doing something wrong doesn't make it right (plus Malone's comments came after the Olympics) but considering Magic and Isiah's relationship and how it could at least be described as "on-again, off-again" I don't have any doubt those two would have gotten along just fine in '92. In fact, if it came down to it, I really don't see much of anything that would have prevented Isiah and the rest of the club from getting along just like everyone else did. Had things been that contentious between Isiah and Magic, I can't see the '92 All-Star Game playing out like it did, where Thomas pushed for Magic's inclusion and led players over to Johnson for a pre-game hug.

I haven't put much thought into this situation previously, but the more I think, the more I find Jordan's suggested standards (no Isiah) to be relatively petty. I think he knew the NBA wanted to do anything possible to make sure he (MJ) joined their Dream Team club. And with MJ having nothing to lose (since he didn't want to play in the first place), he was more or less in position to have all the shots called indirectly in his favor. He was not a king on a throne bellowing orders to his minions, but I do believe it was quite clear MJ was going to motivate some additions and drops based on his own feelings.

Isiah had tough competitive moments, but I think it's misguided to presume he walked around like a little fireball, bristling at folks and ruining relationships left and right. Thomas was a soft-spoken guy. His addition to the Dream Team would not have resulted in any more competitive fire than what we saw from Magic and Mike in the scrimmages during the documentary. The only difference, had Isiah been added to the squad, would have been the additional Dream Team footage that'd exist featuring Magic and Isiah hanging out together and laughing uproariously at something that wasn't that funny in the first place; and maybe a scene where Isiah would talk about running Jordan through the late 80's, whereas Jordan would make a comment about '91.

So again, I know there were still reasons Thomas was left off the squad, I'm just not sure they were the right ones. We could have made reasons for a lot of those guys not making the squad. I think it's a wild over-exaggeration to suggest half of the team truly hated Isiah Thomas.

[VDusen04]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

If any of you get the chance, read the section on Isiah in "The Book of Basketball" and you will understand why Isiah had to be left off.

I've read this book, but I would be interested as to which Isiah sections you felt best illustrated why it'd be clear he'd have to be left off. I ask this with sincerity, not as a, "Yeah? Then show me!" type of thing. I just recall his pyramid section and the portion about the secret (which I went back and re-read a few moments ago). I don't recall reading many specifics about his Dream Team omission. In fact, most of the negativity seemed to be focused on his business ventures and failures. There was surely room for on-court criticisms, but I didn't find much of it particularly groundbreaking in terms of creating an undoubted understanding as to why he had to be left off the squad.

[wwharton]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

I see both sides of this but did want to point out one thing. Karl Malone made ignorant statements about HIV and AIDS, speaking truthfully. His comments were more of a knock on him than Magic.

Zeke, on the other hand, was widely considered to be Magic's best friend in the league who should know him better than anyone. For him to come out and suggest that Magic was gay (especially considering the height of insensitivity towards homosexuals and ignorance about AIDS at the time) was much, much, much worse.

[VDusen04]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

I see both sides of this but did want to point out one thing. Karl Malone made ignorant statements about HIV and AIDS, speaking truthfully. His comments were more of a knock on him than Magic.

Zeke, on the other hand, was widely considered to be Magic's best friend in the league who should know him better than anyone. For him to come out and suggest that Magic was gay (especially considering the height of insensitivity towards homosexuals and ignorance about AIDS at the time) was much, much, much worse.

I say this completely separate from my prior angle (questioning whether Thomas was rightfully less received by some of his peers):

I had not looked much into the Thomas/Magic dispute much until these past few days. I do not remember hearing much about it when Magic's book was released in '09 so I guess I'm behind the curve.

After looking through a handful of links, it doesn't seem there's a lot of definitive information that can be drawn from Magic's allegations. That doesn't mean they're false, but it also doesn't mean everything adds up well. I didn't even know the details of the allegations until I read this article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...gic/index.html

I don't know if I'm the only one in the dark about the Thomas/Magic rumors but from what I've read, the claims essentially are that Magic's agent had a conversation that went like this:

Thomas: "I keep hearing Magic is gay.''

Lon Rosen: "C'mon, Isiah, you know Earvin better than anyone.''

Thomas: "I know, but I don't know what he's doing when he's out there in L.A.''

For starters, Thomas claimed (as anyone would suspect he would) that conversation never happened, because he didn't know Magic's agent like that in the first place. I don't have a hard time believing Isiah wasn't talking to agents that weren't his own about Magic's sex life. It could have occurred, but it's not a big stretch to believe it didn't.

Even if that exchange was accurate word-for-word, I'm not entirely sure I see it as a completely horrible set of statements from Thomas' end. It's not as if Isiah was suggesting Magic was a pedophile. In the hypothetical (or not) situation, Thomas merely threw something out there. There wasn't an accusation, just an apparent question. From the bit I'd heard prior to this article, I was under the impression Isiah had disclosed to a reporter that he thought Magic was dating Hersey Hawkins or something.

I also forgot Isiah Thomas had a brother who was diagnosed with HIV before Magic, likely giving him a unique look at the disease in its early stages. Again, it's an assumption, but I'd bet he was a least a little more well-versed on the topic than many others.

Another excerpt:

Thomas insisted he felt too much sympathy for Magic to be spreading rumors about him.

"I felt awful for him; I felt awful for everybody,'' Thomas said. "But I knew enough at that time that he didn't have to retire. The 'blood' thing we do in the NBA -- where we stop the game because of blood on somebody's shirt and all that ceremonious stuff -- we're not stopping HIV/AIDS that way. We still do it out of some insane fear that came about when Karl Malone and everybody was saying they weren't playing if Magic was playing.''
Instead, Thomas said he helped make it possible for Magic to return in 1992 to the All-Star Game.

"They weren't going to let Magic play in the All-Star Game; all the players were coming out [against him],'' Thomas said. "You know how that all got turned around? I had a meeting with all of the players -- because I was president of the players' association -- and I told them not only was he going to play, but we were going to shake his hand and give him a hug. And I was the first to shake his hand and hug him and give him a kiss, to let people know that's not how the virus is spread.

Basically, to me, one way or another, for right or wrong, things seemed to devolve into a he said/he said situation between Magic and Isiah. And to be clear once more, I'm not trying to prove any kind of point with this information. I just thought it was worth sharing for those who, like me, were unfamiliar with the details of certain allegations.

[23]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

No offense man but I honestly dont want to go on about the Dream Team which is the greatest team in history ever talking about Isaiah Thomas

There are much better stories to talk about, like how Magic was goading everybody to go at eachother in practice, then told MJ he wasnt the man, and then proceeded to watch MJ completely take over and dominate his team

Also how debilitating Larry Bird's back was, and how he said you can't play if you can't feel your feet, but managed to play a big part on the team

Anything but going on about that other guy for pages at a time when it wont change history. They didnt want him, didnt need him, and did it big without him

[wwharton]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

I say this completely separate from my prior angle (questioning whether Thomas was rightfully less received by some of his peers):

I had not looked much into the Thomas/Magic dispute much until these past few days. I do not remember hearing much about it when Magic's book was released in '09 so I guess I'm behind the curve.

After looking through a handful of links, it doesn't seem there's a lot of definitive information that can be drawn from Magic's allegations. That doesn't mean they're false, but it also doesn't mean everything adds up well. I didn't even know the details of the allegations until I read this article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...gic/index.html

I don't know if I'm the only one in the dark about the Thomas/Magic rumors but from what I've read, the claims essentially are that Magic's agent had a conversation that went like this:


For starters, Thomas claimed (as anyone would suspect he would) that conversation never happened, because he didn't know Magic's agent like that in the first place. I don't have a hard time believing Isiah wasn't talking to agents that weren't his own about Magic's sex life. It could have occurred, but it's not a big stretch to believe it didn't.

Even if that exchange was accurate word-for-word, I'm not entirely sure I see it as a completely horrible set of statements from Thomas' end. It's not as if Isiah was suggesting Magic was a pedophile. In the hypothetical (or not) situation, Thomas merely threw something out there. There wasn't an accusation, just an apparent question. From the bit I'd heard prior to this article, I was under the impression Isiah had disclosed to a reporter that he thought Magic was dating Hersey Hawkins or something.

I also forgot Isiah Thomas had a brother who was diagnosed with HIV before Magic, likely giving him a unique look at the disease in its early stages. Again, it's an assumption, but I'd bet he was a least a little more well-versed on the topic than many others.

Another excerpt:


Basically, to me, one way or another, for right or wrong, things seemed to devolve into a he said/he said situation between Magic and Isiah. And to be clear once more, I'm not trying to prove any kind of point with this information. I just thought it was worth sharing for those who, like me, were unfamiliar with the details of certain allegations.

I thank you for sharing but I lived it, man. The ignorance about HIV/AIDS was insanely high. People were scared to touch someone with AIDS for fear of contracting it from their sweat. It was also considered something that really only homosexuals got. And when you pair that with the state of gay acceptance back then, it's a HUGE accusation. We have still yet to have a professional athlete admit to being gay (to my knowledge). This guy suggested that his best friend who he knows better than anyone was gay... on the heals of him having to leave the NBA bc he contracted the most deadly virus known to man.

You have to understand that what Malone said was how most people in this country thought. It's complete ignorance but it was no secret that was the general feeling and he just had the balls to get it out in the open. And it was probably good that he did so a discussion can be had about it and people could get educated.

I can't say my memory is good enough to remember how the info on Isaiah's comments came out but I do know their friendship took a HUGE hit for a while... I'm not sure if they're friends to this day. If I remember correctly, they weren't really tight after that All Star game. Isaiah should've done what he did and more bc even if he didn't say it as he's suggesting in your article, he sure didn't do much to squash the rumors or show he had his best friend's back until then... and don't remember hearing much else after. Plus I'm not one to take the word of an agent, but that's a hell of a rumor to put out there if Thomas didn't actually say it. My guess is Thomas was just trying to save face bc he knew he f'd up when he first put his lips together in front of a mic with that.

[VDusen04]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

I thank you for sharing but I lived it, man. The ignorance about HIV/AIDS was insanely high. People were scared to touch someone with AIDS for fear of contracting it from their sweat. It was also considered something that really only homosexuals got. And when you pair that with the state of gay acceptance back then, it's a HUGE accusation. We have still yet to have a professional athlete admit to being gay (to my knowledge). This guy suggested that his best friend who he knows better than anyone was gay... on the heals of him having to leave the NBA bc he contracted the most deadly virus known to man.

You have to understand that what Malone said was how most people in this country thought. It's complete ignorance but it was no secret that was the general feeling and he just had the balls to get it out in the open. And it was probably good that he did so a discussion can be had about it and people could get educated.

I can't say my memory is good enough to remember how the info on Isaiah's comments came out but I do know their friendship took a HUGE hit for a while... I'm not sure if they're friends to this day. If I remember correctly, they weren't really tight after that All Star game. Isaiah should've done what he did and more bc even if he didn't say it as he's suggesting in your article, he sure didn't do much to squash the rumors or show he had his best friend's back until then... and don't remember hearing much else after. Plus I'm not one to take the word of an agent, but that's a hell of a rumor to put out there if Thomas didn't actually say it. My guess is Thomas was just trying to save face bc he knew he f'd up when he first put his lips together in front of a mic with that.

Yeah, I feel you. One way or another, it's not a pleasant situation. I'm not a fan of things becoming one person's word versus another person's (in this case Magic's versus Isiah's). For the sake of whatever, the article I linked did in fact state Isiah tried to squash what he felt were bogus rumors by calling Johnson directly.

"I don't know Lon like that,'' he said, adding that he reached out to Johnson at the time. "I remember calling Magic and saying [of the allegations that he was rumor-mongering], 'You know that's some bulls---.' ''

As I said though, it's a mess when there's no real way to cut through lies and it's one person's word against another's.

No offense man but I honestly dont want to go on about the Dream Team which is the greatest team in history ever talking about Isaiah Thomas

There are much better stories to talk about, like how Magic was goading everybody to go at eachother in practice, then told MJ he wasnt the man, and then proceeded to watch MJ completely take over and dominate his team

Also how debilitating Larry Bird's back was, and how he said you can't play if you can't feel your feet, but managed to play a big part on the team

Anything but going on about that other guy for pages at a time when it wont change history. They didnt want him, didnt need him, and did it big without him

No offense taken there. I just found interest in the Thomas story is all. I already know the stories about Magic's competition with Jordan and Larry's injuries so I don't have much to discuss in that regard at this time. I discovered new information that interested me regarding Isiah Thomas and I opted to share it. By no means do I want you to feel obligated to go on about something you do not want to.

[23]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

I dont feel obligated, I just think that this thread is about the Dream Team, not about someone who wasn't on the team

As sucky as it would be, someone could take it to Laettner and still be on topic, even if he was the team pizza man and front row seat scout

[VDusen04]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

As sucky as it would be, someone could take it to Laettner and still be on topic, even if he was the team pizza man and front row seat scout

If I had to be real, I'd actually be interested in hearing more about Christian Laettner and his role on the Dream Team. It's a fascinating dynamic for me; to watch a guy who was treated like Mr. America in college transform into a footnote within a matter of months. I wonder if he fully embraced his role or whether his confidence wavered? And during that college/Dream Team scrimmage, I wonder if he felt like the under-used sophomore pulled up to the varsity team scrimmaging against what should have been his JV teammates.

Conversely, I wonder if he was the sophomore who was pulled up, received no playing time, but still walked around with maximum swag due to his appearance on the team alone.

[23]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

He was a dookie, so he had some ties with Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley

They probably had alot of fun hanging out at the time

[NinerFan1983]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

This documentary was awesome. I am gonna have to put one of the encore showings of it on my DVR so I can watch the whole thing.

I saw part of it and loved it. Need to see the whole thing.

[VDusen04]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

He was a dookie, so he had some ties with Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley

They probably had alot of fun hanging out at the time

Speaking of which, am I crazy or did Bobby Hurley look quite aged for a 40 year old?

[23]

Re: 'The Dream Team' - Premieres June 13th on NBATV @ 9PM EST

Maybe the accident and not having an nba career got to him