NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

[PrettyT11]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

Yeah, I'm stunned at people's reaction to the trade. Going from James Harden to Jeremy Lamb and a one-year Kevin Martin rental is a staggering downgrade, long and short term.

Harden has gotten significantly better each year in the league, and he's only 23 years old. Every statistic indicates he's more than good enough to lead his own team, but he had no qualms accepting his role as a third banana and coming off of the bench. Win Shares is far from a perfect statistic, but Harden was sixth in the entire NBA - only five players directly contributed more wins to their team in the 2011-2012 NBA season than James Harden. He was the Thunder's Manu Ginobili.

Who cares if he laid an egg in the Finals? Do you know who else came up short in his first NBA Finals as a 22-year-old, overqualified third banana on a team that lost the championship? James freaking Worthy. Big Game James. He ended up turning out okay. Would all of you agreed with the Lakers trading Worthy for a one-dimensional scorer and the #12 pick in the draft? Me neither.

It's the first time a team has ever decided not to give up a legitimate title chase in order to save a couple bucks (which is dubious itself; OKC is one of the more profitable teams at this point, and plenty of small-market teams have gone well over the luxury tax to pursue a championship; besides, don't you effing dare cry poverty and "woe is me, we're a small-market team" after you ditched the 14th-best TV market for the 46th-best TV market, or after you grossly overpaid Kendrick Perkins, who couldn't even stay on the court in the Finals).

The Thunder are apparently too cheap to seriously pursue a title. They're doing a stand-up job of following in the footsteps of the immortal Robert Sarver.

Are you really trying to compare Harden to James Worthy?? Even if we roll with your comparison Worthy's 84 finals is far different and better than Harden's last year. Harden flat out disappeared and really looked like he wasn't trying. Worthy on the other hand made a couple of bad turnovers but he still gave them 22 points a game on a finals high 64 percent shooting. That's far and away better than Harden was doing.

Your calling of the Thunder cheap and comparing their management to Robert Sarver is also a major reach and far worse than the first. Especially the Robert Sarver comparison. The Thunder had no problem going into the luxary tax and put a more than fair deal of 54 million dollars on the table for Harden. That isn't a cheap move by any means. They decided to trade him cause Harden turned the deal down and wanted the max deal. That is also something Harden himself confirmed in a NBA TV interview. If Robert Sarver was in charge he would have sold off the draft pick before Harden was even drafted let alone never offer him 54 million over 4 years.

The thunder made a business move that IMO was a very smart one. It was clear Harden wanted the max and knew someone was going to give it to him so he was going to be gone at the end of the year anyway. So instead of dealing with questions and distractions all season they traded him for a legit scoring threat, and lottery pick rookie, and two first rounders one of which will be a lottery pick. They wouldn't have got a deal this good at the end of the year if they kept him.

The Thunder made the right move IMO. I'm sorry but I don't care how you try and slice it a third option player is not worth a max deal. Evenmore so when the first two options on the team already have max deals. It would be a stupid and cap killing move to lock 90 percent of your cap space up in three players.

[J_Posse]

I don't think anyone here was calling him the 3rd or even 4th best SG in the league.

Overrating him would be people saying he's the 3rd best shooting guard behind Wade and Kobe.

I personally think he's the 5th, maybe 6th best. IMO it's

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Ginobli
4. Joe Johnson
5A. James Harden
5B. Monte Ellis

With the durability issues of Ginobili and Gordon, and the fact that I think Joe Johnson is a small forward, it can be argued that Harden is the 3rd or 4th best SG in the league. He has the potential to be the best, but we'll see if he has the mental aspect down enough to want it. Wow, imagine what Oklahoma City could have looked like with 3 best wing players in the NBA. Istead, the choose a one-dimesional player in Perkins and a still raw (offensively) Serge Ibaka.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

[DamnYanks2]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

Not that I think my Spurs have a chance of beating Oklahoma City either way, but losing Harden makes them far more vunerable. As great as Durant is and as freakishly athletic as Ibaka and Westbrook are, Harden was the player throwing the knockout blows against Dallas and San Antonio. He was the perfect complimentary player to Westbrook and Durant because he was the most natural creator and facilitator on offense.

I'm assuming that they'll go small with a backcourt of Maynor/Westbrook, but Harden brought that x-factor (dribble drive, spot up shooting, creating contact for fouls and flopping) that neither of those two provide. I really think that the Los Angeles Lakers (barring injury) are the favorites of west, now.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

Can Durant and Martin not spot up? Can Westbrook and Durant not dribble drive? Durant has got to be one of the best spot up shooters in the game doesn't he? I think Martin and Ibaka are the x factors this year.

[PrettyT11]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

Wow, imagine what Oklahoma City could have looked like with 3 best wing players in the NBA. Istead, the choose a one-dimesional player in Perkins and a still raw (offensively) Serge Ibaka.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

But it's not like OKC just decided to walk away and not pursue Harden and just keep Perkins and Ibaka instead. They made a more than far enough offer to Harden and he turned it down. They made a move before they lost him. The same move in fact others here applaud and say other teams should make when their potential free agents turn down contracts.

Hey I was one of the first if not the first to say they wouldn't be able to keep them all after the Westbrook deal but they made more than a big effort to do so. For anybody to call OKC cheap and giving up is unfair in this situation. They put a deal and the table and they guy refused. It's not like they could have forced him to sign the contract. In this situation both OKC and harden did what was best for them.

[Chrisksaint]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

4yr $40million for Derozan? That sounds like a mistake to me.

[J_Posse]

Can Durant and Martin not spot up? Can Westbrook and Durant not dribble drive? Durant has got to be one of the best spot up shooters in the game doesn't he? I think Martin and Ibaka are the x factors this year.

Sure, but guarding three players with that ability compared to guarding two is a drastic shift, IMO. Harden just brought skills that the other two sorely lacked (mainly play-making) while also creating contact and getting to the free-throw line. We'll see if the move works for OKC and if they can truly replace Harden.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

[DocHolliday]

I really feel like the people that think Harden is overrated really just have not watched him enough. Or just saw him in the final.

If you did, I don't know how of think that.

Get league pass and get back to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PrettyT11]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

The James Worthy reference was to make the point that great players don't always come through on the big stage, especially when they're 23 years old. And Worthy was a young third option with stud potential, as Harden is. Obviously, comparing them historically is absurd at this point, but in fifteen years? Who knows?

What other owner besides Robert Sarver has given up titles to save cash? What team has downgraded from dynasty to contender in order to save $6 mil (+ tax) over four years?


Yeah, the Miami Heat were so stupid to do that. Totally killed their title chances, right?

Again the move wasn't to save cash. If that was the case then they would not have made Harden multiple offers. Offers that mind you was bigger than every other player in his drsft class besides Blake Griffin. They wasn't being cheap they decided to trade a player who turned down a contract before he could walk away. Big difference.

And for you Miami Heat reference that too is wrong. None of those three guys are signed to a max deal. They all took less than the max so the Heat could sign other players. So again like I said it would be stupid for a team to give a third option a max deal. Even more so when the first two options already have max deals. 90 percent of your cap in three players is stupid.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

Sure, but guarding three players with that ability compared to guarding two is a drastic shift, IMO. Harden just brought skills that the other two sorely lacked (mainly play-making) while also creating contact and getting to the free-throw line. We'll see if the move works for OKC and if they can truly replace Harden.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

They can't replace Harden, at least not with Martin. But I think he'll do a bang up job, and we might see his fg% the highest it's ever been this year. He can't bring the intangibles over that Harden brings, but he does bring another shooter, and deadly offensive weapon.

I agree with the bold. I thought you were saying Durant can't spot up, and I thought you lost your mind.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

I really feel like the people that think Harden is overrated really just have not watched him enough. Or just saw him in the final.

If you did, I don't know how of think that.

Get league pass and get back to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not overrated, but not a franchise player either, this is my thing. He's overrated if people wanna say he's a franchise guy, if he's a 3rd option, maybe a 2nd even, then he's great for that role.

[BlueNGold]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

4yr $40million for Derozan? That sounds like a mistake to me.

Bryan Colangelo!

[TheBadazz]

Stupid bulls, pay Taj now. Instead of paying more later

sent from HTC Inspire

[PrettyT11]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

How can you even possibly argue it wasn't about money? The Thunder said, "Look, we know half of the league would give you the max right now in a heartbeat, but we're only giving you 4 yrs / $54 mil." When he rejected their offer, they traded him.

If it wasn't about money, they would have offered him the whole $60 million. It was entirely about money.


Miami Heat payroll vs. Thunder payroll.

The Heat are paying more for their Big 3 than the Thunder would be if they signed Harden to the max.

You are still missing the point. So is OKC suppose to just over pay the guy to a max deal just because other teams would?? There is a reason why OKC has turned into a title condenter and those other teams are floating in average land or worse. They offered the man the biggest deal of any player in his draft class not named Blake Griffen and you want to compare them to Robert Sarver. That is just a horrible reach. Again Sarver never would have drafted him in the first place he would have sold the pick like he always does.

Again you are reaching and missing facts. I said it is not smart business to have three players under max deals. It kills you cap flexabilty and limits your moves drastically. You keep throwing the Heat at me and they don't fit. All three guys took less than the max. If you want to use a situation close to what I said then look at the Knicks. They have two max guys and Chandler's 4 year 60 mil deal. How exactly is that going for them?? Their cap sucks and they are a average to above average team that is no threat for a title. Granted OKC would have been in a better position than those guys but I'm not going to call them cheap because they decided not to give out a third max deal and I definantly am not going to compare them to the cheapest owner in the entire league.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

With the durability issues of Ginobili and Gordon, and the fact that I think Joe Johnson is a small forward, it can be argued that Harden is the 3rd or 4th best SG in the league. He has the potential to be the best, but we'll see if he has the mental aspect down enough to want it. Wow, imagine what Oklahoma City could have looked like with 3 best wing players in the NBA. Istead, the choose a one-dimesional player in Perkins and a still raw (offensively) Serge Ibaka.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

Other than size, what makes Joe Johnson a Small Forward?

4yr $40million for Derozan? That sounds like a mistake to me.

Hate the market then.

What other owner besides Robert Sarver has given up titles to save cash? What team has downgraded from dynasty to contender in order to save $6 mil (+ tax) over four years?

Bruce Ratner.

Is it possible to be a "dynasty" when you haven't won anything yet(Championships)?

[PrettyT11]

Re: NBA Movement Central 2012 (All Transactions 1st Page)

We will just agree to disagree then cuz I really don't feel like keep going back and forth with this. If you want to think they are just making a cash saving move by not giving him a max deal then so be it. But please stop saying they are giving up titles and a dynasty when they have won nothing. Keeping him locks up nothing just like letting him go locks up nothing. Again the comparison to Sarver is horrible regardless.

You must not understand fully the meaning of the term max deal in the NBA. If they gave Harden thst deal then they would have had three players under a max deal for their service time in the league. There is no other way that can be understood unless you want to change the rules. Lastly I never said you could or couldn't win a title with three max deals. I said it wasn't smart business and clearly if nobody in the league is doing it then there must be some merit behind it.