Top 10 of All Time

[AirTeezy]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

Good point, although he never actually outplayed Wilt he was just smart enough to make Wilt try and do too much and hurt his team..

Also with Russell being even older than Wilt is Wilt is pretty much the only great big man Russell had to face.. Kareem played through the entire 70s and 80s playing against a majority of the greatest big men to ever play..

Also, not wanting to dog Russell but he didn't have the greatest basketball skill set, limited offensively, couldn't really handle the ball.. He was just VERY smart and hustled his butt of and played excellent defense..


I think it's almost a toss up between the 3 Kareem, Russell, Wilt.. It's more of an opinion between those 3 who the best big man ever is, just personal preference..

Well if we are going skill set you could make a case that Lebron is better than Jordan. LeBron just doesn't have Mikes mentality and heart. Lol you made Bill seem like a glorified Dennis Rodman

[ojandpizza]

Well if we are going skill set you could make a case that Lebron is better than Jordan. LeBron just doesn't have Mikes mentality and heart. Lol you made Bill seem like a glorified Dennis Rodman

Haha I didn't mean that limited! I meant in comparison to the other 10 big men of all time..

Buuuuut If LeBron ever gets that mentality to just take over every game he plays WATCH OUT! lol

[Kashanova]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Lebron
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Chamberlain
Hakeem

[AlexBrady]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

The Centers can't be compared to the guards and forwards. Totally different job descriptions.

Bill Russell was the best of the centers. Still to this day, one of the quickest bigs who ever lived. Even though though he looked slim, he had a natural kind of strength (ala Michael Jordan) that allowed him to play bigger. He excelled at the most important pass in basketball, the outlet pass. He was a one man zone on defense, but he didn't sell out his defensive position for blocks. His offense was less than outstanding, but he had a dependable lefty hook. Otherwise, he mostly dunked on the trail end of the break. He would be my first choice if I were starting an all time team. Wilt and Shaq would be my next two choices before I even thought about taking MJ. A great big is more impactful than a great medium or small.

After Russell, the top centers are Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt. Kareem was a dreadnaught finesse scorer, but his defense was only average. Shaq had more moves in the pivot than any center who ever lived, but his defense and rebounding was only average. Wilt had the most complete game out of the top four centers. He could rebound, defend, pass, and score at an outstanding level. Consistent competitiveness was his big problem.

George Mikan dominated his era more than anyone, but his skills didn't translate into the shot-clock game. Hakeem Olajuwon was a uniquely gifted center, but his inferior passing and turnovers keep him out of the rarified top four.

The top non-centers are Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Jerry West and John Havlicek in that order. Its a close one between Jordan and Oscar for the top spot. Jordan has the edge in shooting and athleticism but Oscar was stronger and a slightly better passer.

Magic Johnson excelled in every area of the game except shooting and defense. Larry Bird could do everything except defend man to man. Tim Duncan's fundamentally sound game is a nice refresher in todays fundamentally unsound game. Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, and John Havlicek had complete games. Bryant's sheer creativity rates him a slight edge over West and Havlicek.

[ojandpizza]

^ I knew you were the classic big man fan.. However not enough credit to Kareem.. He was a better than average center in my opinion, as I stated early he's averaged over 4 blocks on a few occasions.. And un-like Wilt and Rusell, who played against very few big men in their primes, Kareem played against outstanding talent his entire career.. Not to mention much bigger guys as well..

[AlexBrady]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

Besides Wilt, Russell had to face off against Willis Reed, Walter Dukes, Nate Thurmond, and Walt Bellamy. Not a stiff among them.

You measure a great player by what he does without the ball. Russell was a master at pre-emptive positioning, boxing out, timing his lane sprint, and setting sinewy strong screens. His incredible appetite for defense allowed his team to jump into a 2-2-1 funnel zone that ate opposing offenses alive.

No one who has ever played is going to 'stop' Wilt or Kareem. The goal is to take a couple baskets or rebounds away from them to swing the game. Thats what Russell did to Wilt. In a chimerical matchup against Kareem, he would try to beat him to the spot and push him about a foot away just to slightly discomfort him. But there is no way that Russell could get to Kareem's sky hook. With that sky hook, Kareem would have been the stiffest challenge Russell ever faced.

Russell would have easily disabled the games of Kareem's competition. Bill Walton was more of a passer than a scorer so Russell would cut down on his vision. Russell would have boxed Moses Malone off the boards. Russ would match the quick-stepping Olajuwon step-for-step. Robert Parish and his fade-aways would be a piece of cake for number six. He would take advantage of Bob Lanier's poor defense. Artis Gilmore's timidity would be exposed. He would stay down on any and all of Kevin McHale's fakes. The increase in quantity of bigs would be no problem for Russell.

[ojandpizza]

^ I dunno man, we both have our opinions I guess. Don't get me wrong I think he's great too, just don't see his game transitioning as well as you do I guess.. While Russell could very well score on Lanier, Russell wasn't exactly a big time scorer in the first place.. And Walton didn't necessarily build his game around scoring anyways so Russell stopping him wouldn't be that big of a deal.. I agree with him being able to guard McHale, he's too strong and quick for McHale regardless of the pump fakes.. I see Kareem scoring with the sky hook like you mentioned, but I still feel that Moses Malone and Willis Reed would be really tough matchups for Russell, maybe more so than Kareem would have been.. And even though he is quick enough for Hakeem, Hakeem's post moves would have been unlike anything Russell would have ever saw, that plus the quickness, plus him having a size advantage makes him a very tough match up to me as well..

However now that you mentioned Bellamy, that dude was a slouch! He coulda been so much more.. How you do let your rookie season be the best season you ever have..

Thurmond was a beast too.. Had he developed a better offensive game he could have been right up there with these when talking about the best big men ever..

[AlexBrady]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

His game would transition fine. Its a speed and finesse game now and Russell had both in spades.

I don't think Russell would take the ball to Lanier. He would make alert dive cuts because Lanier loved to turn his head to peek at the ball. Walton usually received the ball at the high post and looked to hit cutters and fanners. The Blazers offense was keyed by Walton's passes, so Russell cutting down on his angles and vision would be instrumental.

McHale was about 235 pounds and was excellent at sealing his defender. I would actually give him the edge in strength over Russell, but the fakes set up everything for him. Russell wouldn't go for the fakes, so McHale's offense would be contained. Russ couldn't get to Kareem's sky hook, but who could?

Moses Malone attacked the offensive boards like a savage, but Russell was a master practitioner of the box out. Plus, Moses was a turnover waiting to happen, and I could see Russ stripping him.

Russell actually faced Willis Reed dozens of times. Willis had the hooks and faders to pin points on Russ, but number six had a significant edge in quickness and he was able to contain him. 67 semis and 69 divisionals if memory serves.

Remember that Hakeem wasn't fully developed in the years that Kareem faced him. He was relying on his drop step. He didn't learn to fake it and go to his counters until later on. Even though Hakeem could do severe damage in the low post, he was mostly a face up driver. Quickness is a draw between him and Russ. I can't see the single drop step working on Russell without the counters. Even then, I don't like combating Russell with pure quickness.

Walt Bellamy was 7'0" and 260 pounds. A big guy with a soft touch. You're right though, he wasn't tough enough.

Thurmond featured accurate jump hooks and short range bank jobs. The guy could score. Also a one man zone on defense and a five space rebounder. I have him rated sixth among the all time centers after Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem.

[ojandpizza]

Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, Robinson, Reed, Thurmond, Ewing.. 11. Mikan

That would be my top 10, I don't guess that's too far off from what you were saying.. I included the 11th Mikan just because he did dominate his generation. He however, much like Bob Cousy would not be able to transition his game play past their era..

And when I said Russell's game wouldn't transition well I didn't me he wouldn't be able to play with those guys or in that time, I know he's got the quickness, and he definitely knows how to win and a superb defender don't get me wrong.. I just don't think he would have been near as effective playing later on, neither would Wilt though, which other than putting up monstrous individual numbers Wilt wasn't that impressive to me.. If Wilt really wanted to have been a winner he could have been, seems like he was always more worried about his stats and cocky image..

Also, you're right when I was analyzing the Russell vs. Hakeem match up I wasnt comparing him to a rookie or 2nd year Hakeem back when Kareem played him.. My fault there

[ojandpizza]

^^^ even at McHale being 235 pounds or whatever Russell did a fairly good job of keeping Wilt away from the rim, so just as I said before I still think Russell would have enough strength to make him a non factor..

[Jeffx]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

1. Wilt
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Oscar
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. West
10. Shaq

Thanks to all you cats who gave props to Kareem. When you look at his ENTIRE career, from Power Memorial to UCLA to the NBA, it's incredible. He's also the greatest college baller of all time, IMO. And the sky hook was the baddest weapon ever.

[RedSceptile]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

Random tidbit but I recall reading that Wilt and Hakeem are like the only two players to block Kareem's Sky Hook.

[Jeffx]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

Random tidbit but I recall reading that Wilt and Hakeem are like the only two players to block Kareem's Sky Hook.

i don't know why more bigs don't utilize the hook. Of course no one can do it as graceful as Kareem, but it's still deadly. Shaq had a baby hook and remember's Magic's hook against in the '87 Finals?

[bghost]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

i don't know why more bigs don't utilize the hook. Of course no one can do it as graceful as Kareem, but it's still deadly. Shaq had a baby hook and remember's Magic's hook against in the '87 Finals?

my honest opinion on why bigs dont use the hook... its not fashionable.
I sometimes think players get away from the mentality of "whatever it takes" and often take an approach of "whatever it takes, as long as I look good and they can put me on a poster in the process."

[ehh]

Re: Top 10 of All Time

We need to get back to having more than three guys in the league with a real back-to-the basket game before we start asking for the Skyhook to come back.