Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

[volstopfan14]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

Mostly eyes. Proabably about 90-10. Stats don't always tell the whole story.

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

I think stats can tell you most of what you need to know about how effective someone is, but basically nothing about why.

In a way, stats are being forced to evolve because of the ability to watch every second of every player's career (kids are so spoiled these days ). We can now debate the validity of every assist and rebound. The box score used to be all most people saw on a day to day basis just a couple decades ago, and you just accepted that the numbers told the truth.

I grew up with few televised games, so I often learned about good players from their basketball cards. It was watching the '87 Finals that made me love basketball though. I can't even tell you how many hours I spent practicing skyhooks in elementary school. (I had no idea I wouldn't even reach 6', let alone 7'. ) So, the eyes too can deceive. Sometimes we watch the wrong players because of hype/highlights. I wish someone had told me to watch Dennis Johnson in that series instead of Kareem. I would have gotten a better head start on becoming the right type of player for my natural ability.

I think JerseyReign is right; stats are great for barbershop conversations, but I'd rather talk about Zach Randolph's soft shooting touch and footwork than him averaging 20/10.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

The problem with using stats, especially at the Barber Shop is that 99.9% of the time, they're being used in the wrong context. For example, here's how a typical conversation at the Barber Shop would most likely go:

Random Dude 1: Mannnnn Kobe Bryant was the best player in the league last year.
Random Dude 2: Man how you figure that?
RD1: Cuz man, he was the 2nd leading scorer and the only reason why he wasn't 1st was cuz he let Durant win it.
RD2: That doesn't mean he was the best player last year.
RD1: Man just look at the numbers. What other player had more points than him except Durant? Nobody, LOL

There needs to be balance for the most part but when using stats, it's important that you're using them in the right context otherwise you're going to have a flawed argument. That's why I asked those that use stats, which stat do they actually use?

Same thing with using the Eyes only. Let's use the Barber Shop as an example:

RD1: Lebron James is the greatest player to ever play in the NBA. PERIOD!
RD2: How do you figure?
RD1: Cuz man he can do everything and anything at every position and do it better than the players who play those actual positions. Plus(here's where it's get bad, lol)he's had the most #1 plays on Sportscenter Top 10 EVER. Nobody else has had more than him.

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

The problem with using stats, especially at the Barber Shop is that 99.9% of the time, they're being used in the wrong context. For example, here's how a typical conversation at the Barber Shop would most likely go:

Random Dude 1: Mannnnn Kobe Bryant was the best player in the league last year.
Random Dude 2: Man how you figure that?
RD1: Cuz man, he was the 2nd leading scorer and the only reason why he wasn't 1st was cuz he let Durant win it.
RD2: That doesn't mean he was the best player last year.
RD1: Man just look at the numbers. What other player had more points than him except Durant? Nobody, LOL

There needs to be balance for the most part but when using stats, it's important that you're using them in the right context otherwise you're going to have a flawed argument. That's why I asked those that use stats, which stat do they actually use?

Same thing with using the Eyes only. Let's use the Barber Shop as an example:

RD1: Lebron James is the greatest player to ever play in the NBA. PERIOD!
RD2: How do you figure?
RD1: Cuz man he can do everything and anything at every position and do it better than the players who play those actual positions. Plus(here's where it's get bad, lol)he's had the most #1 plays on Sportscenter Top 10 EVER. Nobody else has had more than him.

My grandfather was in a barbershop quartet. How would it go down in that barbershop?

[ojandpizza]

^^^ I agree with the barber shop guy.. Both stats and eyes are very important if they are used right.. Also as far as eyes go, I've saw some of the people who have claimed they use "eyes" here in other threads.. And let me just say, you must be blind then lol

[EAGLESFAN10]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

I would say 95% eyes and 5% stats because I actually have 2 see a person play before I can judge them

stats are not even used right at times

Example: Andrea Bargnani is alright because he cant rebound or block shots ... if he could that he could be a very good player but he cant do the basic stuff

[WarriorPrince]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

Edit: I say 85% eye, and 15% stats.

Advanced statistics make stats a lot more relevant. I don't think you can come to an objective and complete conclusion unless you factor in both. If you are using ONLY eyes or stats, you're not coming to a fair conclusion.

Another thing with eyes. People will perceive situations differently. It is much easier to skew what you observe if you don't have numbers to back it up. Two people can see the same the same player, and take draw two different conclusions.

[JerzeyReign]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

I say 85% eye, and 10% stats

Ok, so I'll be that guy -- where is the other 5%?

[AllStarDaDon]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

Eye test and stats.

Synergy sports has amazing stats. They provide video of every single freaking play of every player in the league for the last 3 seasons!

So when I ever I get into a debate I just pull up synergy lol

[phenom1990]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

My eyes first and stats second. To understand stats correctly, you must understand what the stat actually measures and the context that the stat occurs. Watching the games helps to explain how someone stats occur.

The media consistently misuses stats to say what a player is good or bad at. For example, most people that are familiar with Synergy like it for the offensive stats and the videos of each play they provide. Understanding someone Synergy offensive numbers are a lot easier than the defensive numbers.

The defensive numbers seem to be flawed because they don't account for the quality of offensive players, how good your teammates are defensively, etc. With the Synergy defensive numbers, you will see guys that are not very good defenders rated as better defenders than Iguodala or Tony Allen in isolation situations, etc.

That's why I hate when I see media people write so and so needs to improve his pick and roll defense, his synergy numbers are... but the writer never actually explains what the player does on the court that causes those numbers.

Edit: I didn't see AllStarDaDon post before I started writing lol.

[WarriorPrince]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

Ok, so I'll be that guy -- where is the other 5%?

It was a mistake. I had 90-10, then I changed it to 85. lol

[The15thunter]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

the problem with statistics is that they don't tell as much of the story as watching the game. it is possible for a player to play a significant role in the outcome of a game and not log a single stat outside of minutes.

a stat guy could see that line with all the zeros and not know that his contribution was huge.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

Which is why it depends on the context that you're using it in.

it is possible for a player to play a significant role in the outcome of a game and not log a single stat outside of minutes.

It's possible but how often does it actually happen? Or if you can name some examples where a player had a significant role in a game but yet his statline was:

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 14:26

a stat guy could see that line with all the zeros and not know that his contribution was huge.

Which is why there needs to be an equal balance of both, like RedSceptile said earlier.

Of course there are certain players that we know we don't need to see their stat line to know that they played a significant/huge impact in the game. But there's probably only a handful of those players and most, if not all of them will probably be your elite NBA players.

[RedSceptile]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

Pretty much. I don't just follow my eyes otherwise your own personal bias leads you to certain beliefs. Likewise I don't just follow stats. The most important thing to note is when people say stats they don't just mean averages. Anyone can note how many points per game a player averages. But what about their defensive win shares? Or usage rate? How about their true shooting percentage. It's important to note that advanced statistics are probably the most important statistics now a days and that's one of the main reasons why NBA front offices are hiring stat guys. Hell ask the Dallas Mavericks and Mark Cuban about it or the Houston Rockets (god my team sucks).

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Eyes or Stats: How Do You Determine How Good A Player Is?

I used to HATE advanced stats but then after reading up on them and getting a better understanding on them, using that and also my own eyes as well helps me get a better feel on how good/bad a player is, especially to ones that play at the same position as them.