Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

[exposedaking]

Which part are you arguing?

Are you seriously trying to tell me that he doesn't shoot a lot, or that he's a good defender or rebounder?

I guess it's easy to sit back and take shots at people without taking any kind of position yourself, huh?

he was good at playing passing lanes and getting steals, he wasn't a great defender but had a nose for the ball.

offensively, he was a problem for any defense, lighting quick slasher that could get to the cup anytime he wanted, and could finish just as good as rose or westbrook...midrange wasn't great, wasn't bad ethier. Also at times showing signs of a playmaker, dishing out beautiful dimes on occasion.

and of course rebounding will be a problem hes a undersized SG

and of course he shot alot...he was thier(GSW) 1st option



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[pw_1016]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Bulls already tried this experiment, it didn't work. His name was Ben Gordon. Rose has a hard enough time sharing the ball with his teammates now.

So are you saying Ben Gordon is comparable to Ellis? Hmmm....

[Dice]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Bulls already tried this experiment, it didn't work. His name was Ben Gordon. Rose has a hard enough time sharing the ball with his teammates now.

I'm not too sure about that. While Ben is a scorer, he cannot get into the lane like Ellis. And Ellis is much faster and quicker than Gordon. Matter of fact, Rose and Westbrook are probably the only guards in the league that has more speed and quickness than Ellis. Gordon isn't even in the team picture.

[iLLosophy]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

I'm saying Ben Gordon and Monta Ellis are both players that need the ball in their hands to be effective. And as much as Rose has evolved, he's still a scorer guard. In order for Ben Gordon/Monta Ellis to reach their full potential, the bulls need a pass first point guard. We are not going to have one of those for quite some time.

Put it this way - when Rose isn't playing, Carlos boozer is a beast, a man among boys. When Rose is playing, Boozer gets benched for Taj Gibson. Another player who needs the ball in his hands to be effective. We don't need anymore of those lol

[ojandpizza]

I'm saying Ben Gordon and Monta Ellis are both players that need the ball in their hands to be effective. And as much as Rose has evolved, he's still a scorer guard. In order for Ben Gordon/Monta Ellis to reach their full potential, the bulls need a pass first point guard. We are not going to have one of those for quite some time.

Put it this way - when Rose isn't playing, Carlos boozer is a beast, a man among boys. When Rose is playing, Boozer gets benched for Taj Gibson. Another player who needs the ball in his hands to be effective. We don't need anymore of those lol

This right here.. Exactly why I can't stand when people try to say Rose is the best, or even second best POINT GUARD in the entire league.. You're example scenario with Boozer is exactly what I have argued on here for forever lol.. Deron Williams had the guy producing a solid 20-10 night in and night out, he was an all-star, and even an all NBA third teamer. ...Yet people here seem to believe Rose is a better POINT GUARD than guys like CP3, Williams, Rondo? No way..People here seem to just think Boozer went from good to average overnight?? Lets be realistic


As far as an all around player, or better yet scorer? Sure stick him up near the top.. But when we're talking point guards? No way..

I know this isn't a Rose or PG thread, I just really wanted to say that lol..

To me the Bulls don't really need a guy like Monta. Getting him couldn't hurt and I'm sure he'd still have some big games, but with Rose around I think they need a guy who can get you that 20 points without always having the ball in his hand. Guys like Kevin Martin, Danny Granger, JR Smith come to mind when I think about a good fit.. However with Deng around Granger wouldn't be an option, I was just simply saying his play style is a good fit for Rose.

[Rewmac]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Ellis is one of the few very very talented scoring guards. Yes he isn't effective on defense or spotting teammates for assists as much as others, but you got Brandon Jennings for that. I do thing he will improve with the Bucks and become more well rounded.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

This right here.. Exactly why I can't stand when people try to say Rose is the best, or even second best POINT GUARD in the entire league.. You're example scenario with Boozer is exactly what I have argued on here for forever lol.. Deron Williams had the guy producing a solid 20-10 night in and night out, he was an all-star, and even an all NBA third teamer. ...Yet people here seem to believe Rose is a better POINT GUARD than guys like CP3, Williams, Rondo? No way..People here seem to just think Boozer went from good to average overnight?? Lets be realistic


As far as an all around player, or better yet scorer? Sure stick him up near the top.. But when we're talking point guards? No way..

I know this isn't a Rose or PG thread, I just really wanted to say that lol..

To me the Bulls don't really need a guy like Monta. Getting him couldn't hurt and I'm sure he'd still have some big games, but with Rose around I think they need a guy who can get you that 20 points without always having the ball in his hand. Guys like Kevin Martin, Danny Granger, JR Smith come to mind when I think about a good fit.. However with Deng around Granger wouldn't be an option, I was just simply saying his play style is a good fit for Rose.

I know you didn't post it but that example given of Boozer is not accurate. Don't feel like pulling up the numbers but he is not a beast like he implied when Rose isn't playing then turns into average man when he is.

For your part Boozer's numbers are not that different from Utah. He hasn't been a 20 plus scorer since 08. His last two years in Utah he was at 16 and 19 points a game. His first year with the Bulls was 18. That is not much of a difference. While Williams is the better passer the system they was running in Utah could easily account for those 2 to 4 points. 17.5 and 9.6 is not average especially when that is your first season on a new team and miss over 20 games to injury.

His rebounding numbers have nothing to do with the PG's he was playing with. His rebounding was going to go down simply by the guys he is playing with. The Bulls are a better rebounding team than those Jazz teams.

Your assesment of Monta and those other guys you mentioned for possibilites for the Bulls I mostly agree with. I believe Monta would be fine with us. He didn't have problems with Jennings with the Bucks and has played with guys who dominate the ball in GS and had success. Monta could help us a lot. I do agree greatly with what you said about a guy who could get buckets without the ball would be a great fit. Rip was suppose to be a guy like that but he is just about washed up. A Kevin Martin would be perfect. But what we need more than anything is just anotherlegit scoring threat and one who can create his own shot.

Rose is not the problem and has no problem with sharing the ball. You guys have to remember Rose was a pass first point guard and has been told by his coaches, first Cal at Memphis and now in the NBA to be aggressive and shoot more. He is doing what he has to do and being told to do for us to win games. I promise you if we had some scoring threats around him those assists would go up and shot attempts would go down.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Just to clear the air regarding Boozer, last year, Rose missed a lot of games, so I went back and broke down Boozer's stats in the games that Rose didn't play:

15.3 points per game
9.3 rebounds per game
2.5 assists per game
50.7% FG%

Last year, his overall stats were:
15.0 points per game
8.5 rebounds per game
1.9 assists per game
53.2% FG%

So he produced slightly more when Rose was out, but also did so at a less efficient rate (granted his last game of the season alone dragged his FG% without Rose down 1% because he went 1/11). Otherwise he would have shot 51.8% from the field without Rose.

[iLLosophy]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Just to clear the air regarding Boozer, last year, Rose missed a lot of games, so I went back and broke down Boozer's stats in the games that Rose didn't play:

15.3 points per game
9.3 rebounds per game
2.5 assists per game
50.7% FG%

Last year, his overall stats were:
15.0 points per game
8.5 rebounds per game
1.9 assists per game
53.2% FG%

So he produced slightly more when Rose was out, but also did so at a less efficient rate (granted his last game of the season alone dragged his FG% without Rose down 1% because he went 1/11). Otherwise he would have shot 51.8% from the field without Rose.

Comparing Boozer's stats to "when Rose is out" to "overall" is a great example how to make numbers lie. The argument is when Rose is out versus when Rose is in. Not sure if you inadvertently did that or not, but let's at least make the numbers match the argument (And....I've taken the liberty of adding a few more stats)

Boozer's 2011-2012 stats

When Rose is In/When Rose is Out
PPG: 13.74/16.81
RPG: 8.65/9.33
AST: 1.70/2.52
FG% 52.1/55.2 (Shot 56% his last year at Utah)
FGA: 11.91/13.71
Efficiency: 17.26/21.42
PPP: 0.958/0.984
TS%: 0.580/0.600 (The Same TS% he had in his last year at Utah)
MPG: 29.93/30.30

Rarely do you see a player shoot more AND shoot better when doing a comparison. Usually the more they shoot, the worse they are. My guess is Boozer is a rhythm player, and you have to keep him flowing to maximize his potential. But the MPG is the most telling of all, as he pretty much had the same amount of floortime with rose as he did without. He just plays better without. Boozer is a good player, he's just not compatible with Rose. Neither is Gordon or Ellis.




(I've already had this discussion many times. So I'm well prepared :wink

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Comparing Boozer's stats to "when Rose is out" to "overall" is a great example how to make numbers lie. The argument is when Rose is out versus when Rose is in. Not sure if you inadvertently did that or not, but let's at least make the numbers match the argument (And....I've taken the liberty of adding a few more stats)

Boozer's 2011-2012 stats

When Rose is In/When Rose is Out
PPG: 13.74/16.81
RPG: 8.65/9.33
AST: 1.70/2.52
FG% 52.1/55.2 (Shot 56% his last year at Utah)
FGA: 11.91/13.71
Efficiency: 17.26/21.42
PPP: 0.958/0.984
TS%: 0.580/0.600 (The Same TS% he had in his last year at Utah)
MPG: 29.93/30.30

Rarely do you see a player shoot more AND shoot better when doing a comparison. Usually the more they shoot, the worse they are. My guess is Boozer is a rhythm player, and you have to keep him flowing to maximize his potential. But the MPG is the most telling of all, as he pretty much had the same amount of floortime with rose as he did without. He just plays better without. Boozer is a good player, he's just not compatible with Rose. Neither is Gordon or Ellis.




(I've already had this discussion many times. So I'm well prepared :wink

Are those numbers from every gamesince Boozer got to Chicago? I was justlooking at last season’s stats and Boozer definitely did not shoot 56% whenRose was out. He only shot about 51%

And yes, I had it as Boozer’soverall stats vs. Boozer’s stats with Rose. As you can see, his numbers didn’t really change, so you can easily makethe connection that his stats were basically the same with or without Rose lastyear. Slightly more stats, but slightlyless efficient as well.

Edit: Maybe you didn't count the post-season or something? Otherwise I don't know how your numbers are all different from mine.

[MVP9072]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Certainly, Ellis is a potent scorer. Can finish in traffic, create contact, pull up and catch and shoot. Passing? He doesn't much care for it. Off ball play? He stands around and waits for the ball to come to him. Defense? He doesn't play it.

So, for all his scoring heroics, Ellis is a one dimensional player. Its doubtful that his presense on the Bulls would guarantee a championship. Derrick Rose needs max ball time to be most effective, and Ellis' disinclination to move without the ball would not complement Rose.

If he could only want to play defense or learn it rather

[ghoul]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Because he's inefficient and a liability on defense.

He was above the league avg. TS% only once in his career, turns the ball over way too much and doesn't take good shots.

Yes, his game is flashy and he has great highlights but that's not what makes a player a top player on his position.

His best seasons (talking about efficiency) were when he was playing more off ball in 2007 and 2008 with Baron Davis and Captain Jack as the main ball handlers.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

He's one of my favorite players to watch, but he lacks alot of things to be truly great.