why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible player?

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  • Hassan Darkside
    We Here
    • Sep 2003
    • 7561

    #16
    Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

    Originally posted by DamnYanks2
    Would you really want a guy like Tony Allen over Melo or Monta?
    It really depends on the makeup of the team.

    And I feel like we've had this thread already...
    [NYK|DAL|VT]
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    Originally posted by DCAllAmerican
    How many brothers fell victim to the skeet.........

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    • ojandpizza
      Hall Of Fame
      • Apr 2011
      • 29807

      #17
      It would never depend on the make up of my team lol.. If I had 11 guys and they told me last spot Melo or Tony there would be 0 chance I would ever pick Tony..

      Comment

      • The15thunter
        MVP
        • Mar 2003
        • 1639

        #18
        Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

        Originally posted by ojandpizza
        It would never depend on the make up of my team lol.. If I had 11 guys and they told me last spot Melo or Tony there would be 0 chance I would ever pick Tony..
        and depending on the team, that could cause chemistry problems on and off the court. egos, cohesion, roles, responsibility and other things factor into the success of a team. if you have a group of ball-stopping scorers, tony allen is very useful because his role will not interfere with the roles of others.
        xbox gt - bmorerep87

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        • ojandpizza
          Hall Of Fame
          • Apr 2011
          • 29807

          #19
          Originally posted by The15thunter
          and depending on the team, that could cause chemistry problems on and off the court. egos, cohesion, roles, responsibility and other things factor into the success of a team. if you have a group of ball-stopping scorers, tony allen is very useful because his role will not interfere with the roles of others.
          So? If my star was injured or having a horrible night or in foul trouble who's going to pick up the slack? Tony Allen?? Yeah right... If this was the case players like Allen would get picked for the Olympic teams instead of a team of superstars.

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          • Matt Bonner
            Rookie
            • Oct 2012
            • 39

            #20
            Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

            comparing defensive specialists to carmelo or monta ellis is ridiculous on the one hand because nobody's making that decision

            when people sign tony allen, they are thinking "do i want a guy off the bench who can score, or a spot starter that plays terrific defense?"

            role players always have a specialty and all of these guys are "good players"

            except randy foye he sucks

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            • The15thunter
              MVP
              • Mar 2003
              • 1639

              #21
              Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

              Originally posted by ojandpizza
              So? If my star was injured or having a horrible night or in foul trouble who's going to pick up the slack? Tony Allen?? Yeah right... If this was the case players like Allen would get picked for the Olympic teams instead of a team of superstars.
              in the scenario you described, where you have a team with 11 players, you likely don't need a carmelo anthony type if the choices are between him and tony allen.
              xbox gt - bmorerep87

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              • wwharton
                *ll St*r
                • Aug 2002
                • 26949

                #22
                Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

                Originally posted by ojandpizza
                So? If my star was injured or having a horrible night or in foul trouble who's going to pick up the slack? Tony Allen?? Yeah right... If this was the case players like Allen would get picked for the Olympic teams instead of a team of superstars.
                If you're talking about the 12th man (like you said) then my guess is one of the other 10 guys would pick up the slack. Otherwise if your team really doesn't have another scoring option then Allen wouldn't have been the right pick up at that time. But there are a billion scenarios where this wouldn't be an issue.

                BTW, Tyson Chandler and Jason Kidd weren't added because they are "superstars". Could say the same about the Unibrow.

                Comment

                • ojandpizza
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 29807

                  #23
                  Originally posted by wwharton
                  If you're talking about the 12th man (like you said) then my guess is one of the other 10 guys would pick up the slack. Otherwise if your team really doesn't have another scoring option then Allen wouldn't have been the right pick up at that time. But there are a billion scenarios where this wouldn't be an issue.

                  BTW, Tyson Chandler and Jason Kidd weren't added because they are "superstars". Could say the same about the Unibrow.
                  No team in the league right now would sign Allen over Melo if given the opportunity to add him for the same cost.. Even teams like Miami, OKC, LA, etc.. There would be no reason for them not to add another superstar.. I don't know how this is even debatable

                  Comment

                  • Dice
                    Sitting by the door
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 6627

                    #24
                    Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

                    I know if the Bulls was in this scenario to pick between Tony Allen and Melo, it's Melo all day or Gar Forman gets fired on the spot. Same scenario between Tony Allen and Monta Ellis. It's Ellis all day.

                    Like Tony Allen and like his hard nose approach to the game but he would not help the Bulls one bit. Melo or Ellis would give the Bulls a chance.
                    I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

                    Comment

                    • wwharton
                      *ll St*r
                      • Aug 2002
                      • 26949

                      #25
                      Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

                      Originally posted by ojandpizza
                      No team in the league right now would sign Allen over Melo if given the opportunity to add him for the same cost.. Even teams like Miami, OKC, LA, etc.. There would be no reason for them not to add another superstar.. I don't know how this is even debatable
                      It's a dumb comparison. Melo is called only a scorer but that's a generalization that fits in other discussions. The reality is he's a guy the offense can be run through, a solid rebounder for his natural position (SF), someone who can play SF or PF but capable of handling the ball too. He's criticized for his lack of defense but he is most definitely more than just a scorer.

                      Conversely, Tony Allen is a very good defender but his contributions on that side of the ball pale in comparison to what Melo brings on the other side of the ball. You don't run a defense through Tony Allen.

                      But even with that said, the answer you were replying to was "It depends on the make up of your team." and you said you would never do it and basing it on the teams in the league now. If you're going to use realistic examples like that then the comparison needs to be more realistic. Compare Allen to someone who contributes nothing but 3's. I'm trying not to shoot from the hip with names bc that can fall in the same trap but compare to someone like Josh Howard who can score in many different ways but needs to be a role player and doesn't do much on the defensive end (as far as I can remember when he's healthy). Maybe we can even use a Nate Robinson, I don't know. But you're using apples and oranges here.

                      Comment

                      • wwharton
                        *ll St*r
                        • Aug 2002
                        • 26949

                        #26
                        Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

                        Originally posted by Dice
                        I know if the Bulls was in this scenario to pick between Tony Allen and Melo, it's Melo all day or Gar Forman gets fired on the spot. Same scenario between Tony Allen and Monta Ellis. It's Ellis all day.

                        Like Tony Allen and like his hard nose approach to the game but he would not help the Bulls one bit. Melo or Ellis would give the Bulls a chance.
                        The Bulls need a scorer as their overall team is built to defend. Not even talking about the ring (bc that's not fair but does kind of show the point) but the Mavs were better getting Tyson Chandler than say Zach Randolph.

                        Comment

                        • ojandpizza
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Apr 2011
                          • 29807

                          #27
                          Originally posted by wwharton
                          It's a dumb comparison. Melo is called only a scorer but that's a generalization that fits in other discussions. The reality is he's a guy the offense can be run through, a solid rebounder for his natural position (SF), someone who can play SF or PF but capable of handling the ball too. He's criticized for his lack of defense but he is most definitely more than just a scorer.

                          Conversely, Tony Allen is a very good defender but his contributions on that side of the ball pale in comparison to what Melo brings on the other side of the ball. You don't run a defense through Tony Allen.

                          But even with that said, the answer you were replying to was "It depends on the make up of your team." and you said you would never do it and basing it on the teams in the league now. If you're going to use realistic examples like that then the comparison needs to be more realistic. Compare Allen to someone who contributes nothing but 3's. I'm trying not to shoot from the hip with names bc that can fall in the same trap but compare to someone like Josh Howard who can score in many different ways but needs to be a role player and doesn't do much on the defensive end (as far as I can remember when he's healthy). Maybe we can even use a Nate Robinson, I don't know. But you're using apples and oranges here.
                          I didn't start the Allen vs. Melo thing, somebody else did.. I was just saying it would be a horrible idea?

                          Comment

                          • PrettyT11
                            MVP
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 3220

                            #28
                            Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

                            To the question of the OP guys that play shut down level D and do nothing else aren't viewed as horrible players. In fact there are some guys who have been nothing but elite defenders and below average to horrible offensively that have gotten very high praise. One of them Dennis Rodman just got in the HOF. Ben Wallace is another one who has been greatly praised and have some people calling for him to get in the HOF. Tyson Chandler is another guy who is now a gold medal winner and making plenty of dollars for his defensive skillset because offensively unless he is dunking he isn't really giving you anything.

                            Elite defensive big men are always going to get more of the shine but guys like Bowen have gotten pub as well. Tony Allen and Avery Bradley are current guys who are getting network TV love for their defense. I think where your question comes from is for guys who are just above average defenders and nothing else. Those are the guys who get overlooked.

                            As far as the one sided offensive players go they always are going to get more shine because it is easier to sell and at the end of the day the object of the game is to outscore your oppenent. You can have the best defense in the world but if you can't score you can't win.

                            Comment

                            • wwharton
                              *ll St*r
                              • Aug 2002
                              • 26949

                              #29
                              Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

                              Originally posted by ojandpizza
                              I didn't start the Allen vs. Melo thing, somebody else did.. I was just saying it would be a horrible idea?
                              Both of us took this to a more specific level which makes it a horrible comparison. Here was your reply to the response of "It depends on the make up of your team".

                              Originally posted by ojandpizza
                              It would never depend on the make up of my team lol.. If I had 11 guys and they told me last spot Melo or Tony there would be 0 chance I would ever pick Tony..
                              And if you had a team full of "Melo" type players, the last spot would be better served going to Tony Allen. It's an extreme example but you did say never and have been pretty clear that it wasn't an exaggeration.

                              If you took the "never" out and just went with this post...

                              Originally posted by ojandpizza
                              No team in the league right now would sign Allen over Melo if given the opportunity to add him for the same cost.. Even teams like Miami, OKC, LA, etc.. There would be no reason for them not to add another superstar.. I don't know how this is even debatable
                              Then I (and probably everyone else) would agree bc no team in the league has a team full of guys you can build an offense around... even the top teams only have two or three that could even be in that argument. Comparing that to a guy you can NOT build your defense around and this comparison is a no brainer. That's where the comparison just doesn't work, if we're going to get to that realistic of a comparison.

                              Now if we were talking truly ONLY a scorer, and an "above average" one since that's where I'd put Allen in terms of a defender, then we've got a discussion involving real teams. There isn't a current defender on the level of Melo offensively but if we use some names just mentioned like Rodman, Ben Wallace, even Dikembe... then a fair comparison could be made to Melo.

                              I know you were just throwing something out real quick initially. I'm just saying if we're really going to break it down we have to make the players on each side equal.

                              Comment

                              • OSUFan_88
                                Outback Jesus
                                • Jul 2004
                                • 25642

                                #30
                                Re: why is it if you can play shut down defense but cant score you are a terrible pla

                                I think a better question would have been JR Smith vs Tony Allen. Melo is a terrible example because Melo can score and rebound among the best of his position.
                                Too Old To Game Club

                                Urban Meyer is lol.

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