86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

[seanhazz1]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

The problem with trying to anoint Boston as the best all basketball team all-time, is the athletes of the 90's were bigger, stronger, and faster than the athletes of the 80's. If you are going to snatch them from their era to match them head to head, this has to be factored in.

The Bulls were recognized as the best defense, and went through the bigger, stronger, faster teams at a league at a record pace, and they had Jordan. Boston would have been forced to go to their bigs for the bulk of their scoring with Jordan/Pippen guarding the wings, while encountering a 3pt shooting big(Kukoc) to draw their bigs from the rim, opening up for the drives of their great wing players. Did Boston ever compete against a 3pt shooting Big in a series? Their bigs (C's) would have worn down against the Bulls over a series, with their guards shut down. To me, this argument is like saying Carl Lewis would beat Usain Bolt when hard numbers, say that its not even a close race, even though both are record holders/champions/legends. Using expansion is a cop out because the league expanded in 1988/1989 long before the 96 Bulls ruled their second 3peat. Those Bird led Celtics "only"won 3 titles, compared to the Magic led Lakers 5, The "post expansion" Jordan led Bulls 6. the Celtics were not even the best team of their own era. The Bulls were a combination of Showtime ((Jordan/Pippen on the break) and Bad boys (Cartwright, Longly, Williams, Rodman,the two styles that they had to overcome to win their first title.

[AlexBrady]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

The problem with trying to anoint Boston as the best all basketball team all-time, is the athletes of the 90's were bigger, stronger, and faster than the athletes of the 80's. If you are going to snatch them from their era to match them head to head, this has to be factored in.

The Bulls were recognized as the best defense, and went through the bigger, stronger, faster teams at a league at a record pace, and they had Jordan. Boston would have been forced to go to their bigs for the bulk of their scoring with Jordan/Pippen guarding the wings, while encountering a 3pt shooting big(Kukoc) to draw their bigs from the rim, opening up for the drives of their great wing players. Did Boston ever compete against a 3pt shooting Big in a series? Their bigs (C's) would have worn down against the Bulls over a series, with their guards shut down. To me, this argument is like saying Carl Lewis would beat Usain Bolt when hard numbers, say that its not even a close race, even though both are record holders/champions/legends. Using expansion is a cop out because the league expanded in 1988/1989 long before the 96 Bulls ruled their second 3peat. Those Bird led Celtics "only"won 3 titles, compared to the Magic led Lakers 5, The "post expansion" Jordan led Bulls 6. the Celtics were not even the best team of their own era. The Bulls were a combination of Showtime ((Jordan/Pippen on the break) and Bad boys (Cartwright, Longly, Williams, Rodman,the two styles that they had to overcome to win their first title.

There wasn't much of a difference in the quality of athletes from the 80s and 90s. If you were talking about the pre shot-clock 50s and comparing them to players of the 90s then you are talking about a bigger gap. Actually, since Bill Russell came into the NBA there have always been serious athletes in the league.

Comparing basketball to a track race is useless since the slightest adjustment in a sprinter's technique can make the difference. Plus, you are talking about new and improved PEDs.

The Bulls really weren't similar to the Showtime Lakers who were looking to run at every opportunity and played zero defense. And the Bad Boy Pistons were a power team while the Bulls were exclusively a finesse club.

[jjsmity]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

The McHale bested Rodman when they played argument is a little misleading. Rodman was primarily a wing defender in those days compared to his Bulls run when he was exclusively a low post defender. Antics aside, he was as positionally sound as they come when it came to either pushing guys off their spot and/or not even letting guys get to their spot.

I dont disagree fully there. Rodman could not even come close to guarding mchale early [unfair matchup not 96 rodman] and was sf. I agree he was great defender, but at 34 giving up hight,length,speed and trying to guard mchale, no question he would have trouble and get fouls as well. He is much better suited for a karl malone type, there simply was noone like mchale in 90's.

For me it's simple, yea, it might sound like a cop out, but I'm picking the team with Jordan on it, I just feel like whoever he played, he was gonna come out on top.

maybe because he was 6/6 in finals? he destroyed the 90's. Ask people who grew up with russel, they would find very hard to vote against him. To me voting against bird in 86 would be equally hard to do, not to mention jordan did get swept by c's twice in playoffs, than detroit 3 times. We just all remember the 90's jordan who beat all, but orlando.

The problem with trying to anoint Boston as the best all basketball team all-time, is the athletes of the 90's were bigger, stronger, and faster than the athletes of the 80's. If you are going to snatch them from their era to match them head to head, this has to be factored in.

The Bulls were recognized as the best defense, and went through the bigger, stronger, faster teams at a league at a record pace, and they had Jordan. Boston would have been forced to go to their bigs for the bulk of their scoring with Jordan/Pippen guarding the wings, while encountering a 3pt shooting big(Kukoc) to draw their bigs from the rim, opening up for the drives of their great wing players. Did Boston ever compete against a 3pt shooting Big in a series? Their bigs (C's) would have worn down against the Bulls over a series, with their guards shut down. To me, this argument is like saying Carl Lewis would beat Usain Bolt when hard numbers, say that its not even a close race, even though both are record holders/champions/legends. Using expansion is a cop out because the league expanded in 1988/1989 long before the 96 Bulls ruled their second 3peat. Those Bird led Celtics "only"won 3 titles, compared to the Magic led Lakers 5, The "post expansion" Jordan led Bulls 6. the Celtics were not even the best team of their own era. The Bulls were a combination of Showtime ((Jordan/Pippen on the break) and Bad boys (Cartwright, Longly, Williams, Rodman,the two styles that they had to overcome to win their first title.

I have no problem with your post, but if you could in future support your opinions with data/evidence or anything. You made allot of claims/opinions with no support, its allot to reply to all claims, if you wish to stick wit a argument please using supporting data.




athletic
I disagree fully, pip,jordan,rodman were all better athletes faster,jump higher in 80's, by 96 they were all over 30 and less athletic, yet better. The younger less athletic players all were beaten up by the c's in the 80's. The bulls only player under 30 [starter] was longley, there is no way he would be able to run up/down court with parish. I would say it simply is not true that the athletic ability has changed much since 70's maybe 60's. There are more athletic players on teams [unskilled] today, but this is about basketball not who can jump the highest. There has always been athletic players around, they are just drafted more often today. To me its almost like were told "Today's" are best and most athletic all the time, almost like there is a reason behind it [future thread].



also players were more skilled and smarter basketball players than. Coaches are selecting based more on athleticism than basketball skill/intelligence. I have seen many great division one players go undrafted, instead selected a taller or faster “project” that was not as good a player. But because he may have more potential, he is in nba. Very few actually become good players. This leves many untalented less basketball IQ less skilled players on rosters around the nba hurting the league. Plus the stamina of the players was much higher than, the game was faster pace and even big men had to be able to run up and down the court. Watch parish/kareem and ralph samspson [7'4 36 inch vertical]running up and down the court there are no nba centers today that could do that. Back than the big men were also expected to have to pass and shoot, unlike today were most players are specialty players. Todays slow down pace especially for the big men today, would not have the stamina to get up and down the court like they use to in the 80's. The speed of the game was so much faster.A sports illustrated recently did a story on the 2014 spurs beating the heat. The article showed and pointed out how the less athletic and less talented team with just good players and no superstar beat out a more talented team because of there passing and team play [stats included] they eve referenced there play as similar to the 80s teams. The heat could not stop the ball movement they could not defend.

watch here
best dunks of the 80's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJhAL3c_A1Y

Top 100 Dominique Wilkins Dunks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34

Also the camera angels were more from above a strategic look at the game, not as close individual, that does make a difference in athletic appearance. In 80;s games when they do get close up you can tell they seem like today’s players athletically.





size difference?

everyone is always surprised by this, may i suggest the nba is a business and there are reason they want you to always think the players of that day are bigger/better?


average height of nba player in 86
6' 7.36"

average height in 96
6' 7.27"

tallest on record
86-87
6' 7.62"



This page details information on the average height, weight, age and playing experience of players in the National Basketball Association since the 1985–86 season. The NBA peaked in height during the 1986–87 season, when the average height was 6 feet 7.62 inches (2.0223 m). The second and third tallest seasons are the 2002–03 and 1987–88 seasons.*In fact, four of the seven tallest seasons occurred in the latter half of the 1980s.Meanwhile, the NBA's shortest seasons in recent history have been 2006–07 and 2007–08.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_lea...ing_experience

I recently compared the 2014 finals teams to the 86 finals teams,both the 86 finals teams boston/houston would have large height advantage over both the 2014 teams.





weight

86 average
215.46


96 average [admittedly fatter than today's and near top]
223.66


todays 2014 is around 221.


so height advantage to 86, weight to 96. But you watch the 86's up with 96 bulls, i bet weight goes to c's.



The Bulls were recognized as the best defense


in 96 maybe, best def rating, just like 86 Celtics. Who had no less than 5 all nba defenders on there team. There other 3 were robert parish 10th all time blocks, danny ainge who was drafted and only played for defense spicalsit in houston, and sichting,a rugged physical player who was great at keeping men in front [ask isiah thomas] but admittedly the weakest link. Meanwhile as I have posted before the bulls come nowere near that defensive talent and have no one besides rodman to guard the frontcourt and come with 3 weak defenders off the bench, weeington,kukoc,kerr.


boston would go to there bigs willingley, it is best frontcourt ever. Yes jordan would guard johnson, who averaged better than his average against jordan in his career [ see op]. Pip would be on bird, noone can stop bird, he averaged and shot well against pipen. Kukoc who will he guard? he was liability at best, he cant play pf as i pointed out in this series, so he cant draw bigs away, he would be matched by former all nba defender wedman.

thos great wing me [jordan pip] would be guarded by all nba first team players as well.

Somehow you think the c's would wear down the big men. What from stomping on them? who is more likely to wear down, parish/walton/mchale, or longley,wennigton and rodman? who will be having to work to defend and rebound, the bulls froncourt will be in foul trouble and no question they will be worn down, the c's will have all easy defensive assignments like rodman, wennigton and longley, meanwhile they will have to work to try and rebound and defend parish/walton/mchale.


How as you claim will the c's backcourt be shutdown? when they do better against jordan [ i give reasons why in op].

Exspansion in 88 happens after 86, just for your info. Later expansions happen fast and further water down, such as in 96.


we are comparing a single season team ,not a dynasty.

There wasn't much of a difference in the quality of athletes from the 80s and 90s. If you were talking about the pre shot-clock 50s and comparing them to players of the 90s then you are talking about a bigger gap. Actually, since Bill Russell came into the NBA there have always been serious athletes in the league.

Comparing basketball to a track race is useless since the slightest adjustment in a sprinter's technique can make the difference. Plus, you are talking about new and improved PEDs.

The Bulls really weren't similar to the Showtime Lakers who were looking to run at every opportunity and played zero defense. And the Bad Boy Pistons were a power team while the Bulls were exclusively a finesse club.

could not agree more with above.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

I dont disagree fully there. Rodman could not even come close to guarding mchale early [unfair matchup not 96 rodman] and was sf. I agree he was great defender, but at 34 giving up hight,length,speed and trying to guard mchale, no question he would have trouble and get fouls as well. He is much better suited for a karl malone type, there simply was noone like mchale in 90's.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Malone was bigger and stronger than McHale, played more physical, moved more often rolling off constant screens, and ran the floor harder. Hell he scored probably half his points throughout his career by beating his man up the court or rolling off of screens. That's a lot of movement for a 34 year old Rodman to cover. Not to mention the beating from guarding the size and strength of Malone.

Rodman was a very smart defender and disciplined.. Due to that fact that he did give up size to nearly everyone he guarded, and knew shot blocking wasn't his biggest strength, he didn't bite for multiple fakes. He kept his ground and played solid defense, and unlike Malone and Shaq, McHale wouldn't be just bumping him aside because the weight/strength difference wasn't near as large between the two.

I would think McHale is a much better matchup for that Rodman than having to face Malone, Kemp, Shaq, Ewing/Oakley, etc.. There was no one like McHale in 90's but there was no one like Malone, Kemp, Shaq in the 80's either.. Rodman had his hands full plenty of times, but he always got the job done and was always in the opponents head.


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[jjsmity]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

I'm not sure I agree with this. Malone was bigger and stronger than McHale, played more physical, moved more often rolling off constant screens, and ran the floor harder. Hell he scored probably half his points throughout his career by beating his man up the court or rolling off of screens. That's a lot of movement for a 34 year old Rodman to cover. Not to mention the beating from guarding the size and strength of Malone.

Rodman was a very smart defender and disciplined.. Due to that fact that he did give up size to nearly everyone he guarded, and knew shot blocking wasn't his biggest strength, he didn't bite for multiple fakes. He kept his ground and played solid defense, and unlike Malone and Shaq, McHale wouldn't be just bumping him aside because the weight/strength difference wasn't near as large between the two.

I would think McHale is a much better matchup for that Rodman than having to face Malone, Kemp, Shaq, Ewing/Oakley, etc.. There was no one like McHale in 90's but there was no one like Malone, Kemp, Shaq in the 80's either.. Rodman had his hands full plenty of times, but he always got the job done and was always in the opponents head.


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great point, good post. Of course anyone would have troubel with both malone/mchale. From early career mchale easily got shot off over rodman because height/length advantage. That is why i saw him as harder to guard. But just to let you know, malone,ewing,okaley played multiple years in 80's against mchale. Kemp would be a bigger but not as good version of Dominique.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

great point, good post. Of course anyone would have troubel with both malone/mchale. From early career mchale easily got shot off over rodman because height/length advantage. That is why i saw him as harder to guard. But just to let you know, malone,ewing,okaley played multiple years in 80's against mchale. Kemp would be a bigger but not as good version of Dominique.

I think Nique is actually extremely overrated as a player, Kemp is too. But my point in general was that Kemp was bigger, longer, stronger, faster, could jump higher, etc than Rodman. Rodman is used to having a mismatch.

Obviously guarding McHale would be no easy task, I just think the idea of the amount of impact he would have is slightly overblown. I think Rodman lessens his impact more so than the majority of other opponents would.


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[jjsmity]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

I think Nique is actually extremely overrated as a player, Kemp is too. But my point in general was that Kemp was bigger, longer, stronger, faster, could jump higher, etc than Rodman. Rodman is used to having a mismatch.

Obviously guarding McHale would be no easy task, I just think the idea of the amount of impact he would have is slightly overblown. I think Rodman lessens his impact more so than the majority of other opponents would.


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I dont disagree with that either.

[jjsmity]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

I edited the OP





How they match up

the teams
Boston

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1986.html

Chicago

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html

Not only do I think the 86'c were a better team, I think in a head to head the makeups favor boston. Boston had the best frontcourt ever assembled, there is no way luc longley and bill wennigton could stop them. The 96 bulls did not face a dominate frontcourt or center. The combination ofparish,mchale,walton could not be stooped by the bulls big men.


86 celts are simply the deeper more talented team. They match up very well against the bulls the best front court ever assembled against luc longely and bill wennigton?. The 86 c's had a great bench and could go deep unlike the bulls.

8 man rotations- both teams mostly used only 8 players here is how they match up.


PG Dennis Johnson- Ron Harper
SG Danny Ainge- Micheal Jordan
SF Larry Bird- Scottie Pipen
PF Kevin Mchale- Dennis Rodman
C Robert Parish- Luc Longley


Bench

PG/SG Jerry Sichting- Steve Kerr
SG/SF/PF Scott Wedman- Toni Kukoc
PF/C Bill Walton- Bill Wennigton


A quick matchup shows that the Celtics have the better of 4/5 starters johnson vs harper- Bird vs pipen mchale vs rodman parish vs longley. And the better bench Walton-wennigton large boston advantage sichting/kerr even wedman/kukoc slight bulls advantage.


Closer look at matchups



Boston defense


Chicago scoring threats 10 points plus
Jordan 30.4
Pipen 19.4
Kukoc 13.1


PG Harper 7.4 ppg .467% 2.6 ast – Guarded by Danny ainge

Ainge was a good defender but not a great defender, he never won any all nba awards, but was originally drafted and played as a defensive specialist by Bill fitch, he only really played during defensive positions and situations. Harper having a two inch advantage would likely do no better or worse than his average against ainge.


SG Jordan 30.4 ppg .495 % 4.3 ast- guarded by Dennis johnson

DJ a 9 time all NBA defensive player 6 time first team, was as good as anyone guard in history to contain jordan.

“Ask any scorer they will say Dennis Johnson”
Former NBA scoring champ George gervin when asked who the best defender he faced was said

''the best backcourt defender of all time.''
December 1991, Magic Johnson


DJ would make jordan work to get his, but no one could ever stop Jordan, dj could take jordan 1v1 but jordan would score above his average if they were to do so, but would not need a double. If they do double, jordan must work extra hard just to get his average, likely his shooting would take a small hit against DJ as well, but in the end jordan finds a way.


SF Pipen 19.4 .463% 5.9 ast [ playoffs 16.9 ppg .390%]-guarded by Kevin mchale

Mchale was a 6 time all defensive player 3 time first team with the longest arms in NBA history [model at hall of fame]. He would use his length and height advantage to get at pipens shot and block shots, mchale in 85-86 pre foot injury still had speed and guarded faster high scoring sf such as worthy, Dominique Wilkins, Bernard king etc Given pipens numbers in the 96 post season 16.9 ppg .390% shooting, its fair to say his numbers would diminish against a all nba first team defender like mchale, something he did not face in playoffs. He would still be able to create offense and play making but at a reduced rate, he would also be able to score in transition.



PF Rodman 5.5 ppg .480% 5.6 org 2.5 ast - Guarded by Robert Parish

Rodman no threat at creating offense, his biggest threat was offensive rebounds, giving him and others second chance opportunities. 7 foot Robert parish was a great rebounder and would do as good a job as any trying to keep rodman off boards. But rodman would be best rebounder in series and would get to the offensive baord, his put backs and offensive rebounds if anything would be reduced given his 7 foot hall of fame 50 greatest player counterpart Robert parish.



C Longely 9.1 ppg .482% 1.9 ast – guarded by Larry Bird

Bird would often guard the opposing center if they were of little or no threat as with longley. Bird a 3 time all nba defender would be allowed to wonder off longley and do what he does best, help defend. If the bulls went to longley with size advantage on bird in post, I think the c's live with that, if that was case longleys numbers would go up, but that means less shots for jordan and others. If for some reason longley goes off [what is chances of that] a switch with parish could be done. Bird was a far better rebounder than longley 9.8 vs 5.1 and was best sf rebounder ever [save maybe baylor] and would be able to keep him off boards.




Bench


Kerr 8.4 506% 2.3 ast – guarded by Jerry scihting

Sichting who would never be called a stopper but was physical for his size and could stay in front of his man better than any Celtic, Ask Isiah thomas about him on defense he hated him. This would not do much good against kerr a 3pt specialist. Kerr would have a 2 inch height advantage and his numbers would likely be slightly up. His numbers dropped in playoffs especially from 3pt, but a deadly shooter no less.



Toni kukoc .490% 13.1 ppg 3.5 ast [ playoffs 10.8 ppg on .391%]- guarded by Scott wedman

Kukoc was a matchup nightmare for opposing players given his great shooting and height 6'10. His numbers dropped in playoffs to and could not hit a three. But a offensive threat no less. Wedman was a great defender and former all nba defender but at 6'7 was giving 3 inches to kukoc. Kukoc would likely get his averages against wedman a good defender, but smaller.



Wennigton 5.3 ppg .493% .6 ast – guarded by bill walton


wennigton offered no threat on offense and would be guarded by former muti all nba first team defender walton. Wennigton shut down. Walton led league in defensive rating in 85-86.


Walton's "Defensive Rating" made him the number one over-all NBA defender for the 1985-86 season, just as the statistic tells us he was during his 1977-78 MVP campaign.




Conclusion

Other than jordan Bulls would find it very,very hard to score, there 2 main offensive threats [pipen/jordan] would both have all nba defenders on them, the third kukoc off bench would have a former all nba defender on him. The bulls frontcourt would offer no offensive threat to the c's. Bird would be on easy defensive assignments allowing him to do what he does best help defend. Kukoc and kerr would both be able to score off the bench, but neither with a mismatch that could continually be counted on for big numbers, but would add much needed scoring off bench. It is likely that pipen would struggle against mchale given his playoff numbers and all nba defender on him. The only place the bulls could call a mismatch would be jordan/johnson, and DJ was arguably the best backcourt defender in nba history.





Boston offense


Boston scoring threats 10 plus a game

Bird 25.8
mchale 21.3
parish 16.1
johnson 15.6
ainge 10.7

In playoffs Boston had 5 players average 15 plus a game.


PG Johnson 15.6 ppg .455% 5.8 ast – guarded by jordan


Jordan a great defender [multiple all nba first team awards] could all but shut down johnson 1v1, however jordan loved to rome and double down in post leaving his man, johnson in his carer averaged better against jordan just for this reason. He would not be a go to option to create with jordan on him, but would take advantage of jordan leaving to help post. DJ was also clutch in everyway, coming up big in big games and hitting big shots. If jordan stays on him his numbers greatly reduced, if he leaves for steals/double, johnson scores his career average against jordan, so his numbers go up.



SG Ainge 10.7 ppg [playoffs 15.7] .504% 5.1 ast guarded by harper


Harper was not a great defender and had no defensive awards, but was long and had 2 inch height advantage. Ainge does no better or worse than average. Ainge still scores off outside shots from kickouts and drive to lane when open.



SF Bird 25.8 ppg .496% 6.8 ast – guarded by pipen


Pipen a muti all nba defender arguably the best sf defender ever,would make it hard on bird and make him work, likely causing bird to look to pass more. Bird averaged and shot well against pipen over his career mostly post prime 25.9ppg on .503% shooting. Bird was in his prime in playoff and none could stop him. Birds numbers likely take a small dip in efficiency and pipen causes some turnovers, also bird would likely become more of a playmaker. But still go to guy in clutch and a go to option. If the bulls do not double, he than would go to scoring average/ maybe slightly above.



PF mchale 21.3 ppg [ 24.9 playoffs ].574% 2.7 ast- guarded by rodman


Rodman a muti all nba defender, but his best days were behind him in 96. At the age of 34 his speed was fading. Still a great defender, but never averaged 1 block or steal a game for his entire career. Mchale arguably the greatest low post scorer in NBA history, arguably the most efficient, leading league multiple years in %. Mchale had height advantage, length advantage [longest arms in nba history] and mutiple post moves. When matched against rodman in career mostly post prime, he shot well and scored above average. He would be a go too consistent option a mismatch for anyone, none ever learned how to stop mchale. But rodman would make him work. Mchale score same but at slightly reduced %.


Dennis Rodman was an incredible rebounder, but by 1996 his best days as a defender were behind him. Bulls homers try to say that he was still great but it’s just not true. His days as a versatile blanket defender had been left behind in Detroit. Once he found he had a talent for rebounding, that’s all he concentrated on – to the extent of cheating off his man to go for the boards. When Rodman was with the Spurs, he was victimized time and again by Houston’s Robert Horry in the 1995 Western Conference Finals. Teammate Sean Elliott pointed out that Rodman kept trying for the rebound and just cut Horry loose to heave up threes.


C parish 16.1ppg .549% 1.8 ast- guarded by longley

Large mismatch, longley never any defensive awards matched against a HOF top 50 player. Parish would be a constant high % threat on offense or force a double team. Parishes numbers would be much higher than normal.




bench

walton 7.6 ppg .562% 2.1 ast- guarded by wennigton


Big mismatch, sixth man of the year walton a all time great, best backup center in nba history against rookie center bill wennigton, never any defensive awards. Walton one of the best total offensive centers when healthy to play. He was best passing center in game and would also create for others. Waltons numbers would be high compared to averge.



Wedman 8.0 ppg .473% 1.1 ast – guarded by kukoc

former all star and scorer wedman had his best year with boston in 86. he was midrange/outside threat. Guarded by kukoc who was a defensive liberality, witch means wedman would score more than his average and at a higher % almost making even the wedman/kukoc matchup.



Sichting 6.5 .570% 2.3 ast- guarded by kerr


His numbers may be slightly increased given kerr no defensive awards or respect. Evening the kerr/jerry matchup.


conclusion

Boston would have multiple scoring option to go to for constant points, mchale,parish,walton,bird. The only option that would be possibly taken away as for creating johnson, his man likely would leave to double allowing him to score. Boston could use multiple mismatches such as parish/longley walton/wennigton or even bird and mchale to force doubles. The other role players like ainge,wedman,jerry could still hit right around there averages. Boston could score from many ways in this matchup.


“The defensive skills of Jordan and Pippen would be diminished, while Larry Bird’s would be amplified. Jordan and especially Pippen would be unable to roam as they would have to be plugged into Ainge and Bird. On the other side of the ball, Larry Bird would have easy assignments like Dennis Rodman or Luc Longley, and thus would be able to utilize his great defensive abilities.”

much of Scottie Pippen’s defensive prowess was in the area of roaming. He could cheat off his man and make great steals and blocks. Not the case with Bird; he would have to be plugged into Bird the whole time

Jordan, much like Pippen, thrived on defense by sneaking off his man and making plays on other people. With Ainge, though, he would have been burned doing that.*

http://larrylegend.wordpress.com/200...1995-96-bulls/*

All the Celtics were bona fide threats on offense. This is not something the Bulls faced. There were no “defensive specialists” or “rebounding specialists.” Each player – including the bench – could score when called on.
The Celtics had dynamos on the front line, and that would force the Bulls’ hand. Chicago liked to go with Rodman and Kukoc down the stretch, but there’s no way they could do that against the Celtics. One of them would have to come out: if they went with Rodman, then they would lose Kukoc’s outside shooting; if they went with Kukoc, they would lose Rodman’s rebounding. If they tried to play the two together, Robert Parish would eat them alive.



when the 86 and 87 c's played and swept jordan out of playoffs, jordan was always leaving his man to double post, Johnson,ainge and sichting had great series against bulls because jordans doubles.


A comparison of match-ups with the two teams selects 86 c's because of lack of bench from Chicago and no center.*http://larrylegend.wordpress.com/200...1995-96-bulls/*


Comparison of best two teams ever gives boston the slight edge
“Quality of competition is huge. The ’96 Bulls are known as one of the best teams ever because they won 72 games, but Boston won only five fewer in a much better NBA.....Chicago would just get manhandled up front. The combination of McHale, Parish and Walton would be too much for Rodman to take on by himself. Plus, Boston’s frontcourt depth would give them that many more fouls to hack away at Jordan every time he came flying into the lane. The size of Boston’s advantage up front is greater than Chicago’s advantage in the backcourt.*
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...boston-celtics


the 86 Celtics swept the 86 bulls with Jordan first round of the playoffs and won all regular season games going 6-0 against them. They would sweep again the next year as well.

The Celtics had four guys average over 15 points per game. The Bulls only had two. And, as previously mentioned, the Celtics had the Sixth Man of the Year. The Bulls starting center, Luc Longley, may be the worst starting center to ever win an NBA Finals.*



Johnson averaged better and shot better against jordan than his career averages [jordan doubled post allot with mchale parish etc]

86-88 games jordan doubles to much leaves open good shooters ainge/scihting wedman to get hammered.


86 and 87 playoffs vs jordan
johnson,ainge and sichting having great series vs bulls in large part because jordan kept leaving open the outside shooters to double the post. Johnson and ainge would both have great series again in 87 sweep of bulls.

head to head comparison stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...h2h_finder.cgi
the DJ of 86 [31] had trouble with jordan of 86 [22] because of speed, jordan of 96 [age 32] was much slower, playing in johnsons advantages.
*
How a short 3 point line helped the Chicago Bulls win 72 games in 1995-96.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basket...point_line.htm


Rebounding comparison

The Celtics led the league in rebounding in 86, the bulls were 12th in defensive rebounds.
Boston led the league in rebounding with 46.4 rpg, nearly five per game more than its opponents.*
http://www.nba.com/playoffs2004/chal...ltics1986.html

The combination of parish,mchale,bird and walton would dominate the boards against the bulls who’s only real rebounder was rodman. Rodman was 34 years old, he only played 32 min a game, he would also have to using energy to guard mchale and try to stay out of foul trouble against arguably the best low post score In nba history [ he once fouled out in 18 min against mchale]. Who is to rebound for the bulls while hes out? What if he gets in foul trouble against the Celtics frontline? Even when in by himself he cannot outrebound all the Celtics. The c's would likley put 7 foot Robert parish on rodman to help keep him off the boards.


Defensive comparisons

Both teams led the league in def that year. However the bulls were playing in a waterdown 96 league. So lets look at talent

Players who won a all defensive award in career
Bulls
3-Jordan,Pipen,Rodman,

Celtics
5- Bird,Walton,Mchale,Johsnon,Wedman

the other 3 players who got regular minutes

the 3 "weak spots"" were robert parish a down low defensive stopper parish who is 10th all time blocks, Ainge who was originally drafted and used as a defensive specialist by bill fitch and only got minutes in defensive situations [only later became know for his offense] and sichting who would never be called a stopper but was physical for his size and could stay in front of his man better than any Celtic, Ask isiah thomas about him on defense he hated him. You could not say the same for the like of kukoc,kerr wennigton and longley.



Passing team play
The 86 c's are widely regarded as the best passing team in history, they averaged 29.1 assist per game. The bulls averaged 24.8.



How a short 3 point line helped the Chicago Bulls win 72 games in 1995-96.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basket...point_line.htm

[ojandpizza]

86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

Still focusing an awful lot on the individually matchups rather than the team aspect.

First of all, I do not believe McHale can guard Pippen.. You mention Worthy, Nique, King.. But Worthy was only a 3rd option offensively, not a great shooter from the perimeter, not a superb ball handler nor all that quick/fast with the ball. King wasn't a great outside shooter nor a forward with a speed advantage, more of a powerful small forward who used his size/strength to get to his spot and then turn and shoot over his defenders.. McHale is the perfect defender for him honestly.

But LOL at even mentioning Wilkins. Nique torched Boston, multiple times actually.. And the only reason Boston was able to leave McHale on him is because Nique's jumpshot is about as consistent as Shaq's free throw shooting. McHale used to sag off of him 5+ feet man. Just glancing at basketball reference's head to head log, Nique's scoring vs McHale from years '84-'93 - 23,47,25, 39, 38, 36, 40, 24, 32, 34, 36, 42, 29, 38, 17(only played 23 minutes), 54, 36, 28, 22, 23, 38, 26, 35, 38, 14, 23, 27, 8, 26, 18, 13, 9, 31, 24, 36, 41, 19, 35. That's an average of 30ppg, 4 games over 40, once over 50. That list doesn't even include playoff numbers, where Nique had nights of 38 points, 37, 40, 35, 37. . So yes maybe McHale's reach and quickness did allow him to defend Nique, but he sure as hell wasn't effective. Nique was also shooting a ton of free throws against Boston, they couldn't contain his athleticism.. Chicago would have two guys attacking them rim like that, spells some trouble.

Not saying Pippen would go out and hang 40 on McHale but he's far to quick for McHale, much better with the ball in his hands than anyone McHale would normally guard often bringing the ball up the court himself, and unlike Nique wouldn't take 30 shots per game minimizing everyone else's impact.. If I were a Bulls fan I would actually feel more comfortable with McHale guarding Pippen than I would physical players like Rodman, Mason, McDaniel, or quick long guys like Shrempf, Wilkins.. Pippen had faced much bigger defensive challenges for him individually than what McHale would be, IMO. Pippen had also developed a reliable 3 point shot at this point in his career as well. 37% that season on over 5 attempts per game, thus making McHale's "sag off" method even less effective.

Dennis Johnson - it's not a real surprise that Gervin said Johnson was a tough defender, he's one of the best defensive point guards of all time. Gervin was a frail finesse scorer, weighed even less than even Steve Nash despite being a good 6'8".. Johnson didn't mind to play a more physical defense and being that he wasn't all that quick he relied on it. I'm sure Gervin hated that, he would have given the same compliment to bigger guards like Frazier, Payton, and Kidd as well. Still though, excluding his year with Chicago, Gervin averaged 27ppg on his career in games vs DJ. Eclipsing 40 three times. So even if he considered DJ his toughest defender it still didn't mean DJ was shutting him down, or even coming close to hindering his usual output. I would believe similar would happen with Jordan, the physical defense would also bother Jordan less than it did Gervin and Jordan could even post the smaller Johnson.

As far as what other players have said about other players: Jordan always considered Dumars and Richmond his toughest matchups.. Despite playing against and being defended by Dennis Johnson from the very season we are discussing.. But I believe what players say means very little anyways, but since you used it I figured I would too.

The front court matchup.. It's easy to just say "Parish trumps Longley" he's obviously a far and away the better player, and a Parish/Walton duo is quite a leap ahead of anything Chicago can throw out at the center spot.. But Chicago had always done fine against good big men, Longley was the definition of a good role player and Rodman/Pippen were always able to make up for any rebounding mismatch. Chicago didn't let Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, Smits, Daugherty, etc kill them so I highly doubt they let Parish kill them either.. Longley was huge, 7'2" up around 260-270 pounds, he could body up Parish and keep him uncomfortable.. I would see it as a similar match as Ewing. Both players (Ewing and Parish) want to step away and hit that little jump shot. Biggest difference is Ewing was bigger, stronger, a tougher force scoring near the basket, could put the ball on the floor better, and was the focal point of an offense rather than a 3-4 option..

No question Parish would get his points but it's not going to be some giant mismatch, Longley held his own defensively against great bigmen and would do the same against Parish/Walton, along with help from Rodman and the occasional spot minutes played by Wennington/Buechler (more on them later).. Also worth mentioning, in the playoffs that season Longley had a defensive rating of 100, and a block% of 5.2.. For comparison Hakeem was defensive player of the year in '94 with a defensive rating of 95 and block% of 5.7, Mutombo the next season 103 and 7.5, Robinson defensive 1st team in '95 with 99 and 5.9.. Obviously Longley is nowhere near the individual defender those guys are, but he was a very solid defensive big on a team that was loaded with great individual defenders. Parish in the '85-'86 playoffs: defensive rating of 104 and block% of 2.8.

Ron Harper - I'm not sure what makes you say Harper wasn't a good defender. I remember him as one of the best defensive guards in the league during that time, adding Harper before the 95 season is what helped the Bulls jump back to the top defensive team in the East before Jordan returned and before they added Rodman. Sure Harper had his limitations, he wasn't going to stop a lightning fast guard like Zeke or Iverson, and he wasn't going to contain a highly athletic scorer like Jordan or Kobe, but against the other 90% of the league he was a very tough matchup defensively.. Actually the fact that DJ was a bigger more average speed guard, and that Ainge wasn't a high powered scorer or extreme athlete, plays right into Harpers strengths. Harper didn't win any defensive awards but that's in large part because Mookie, Payton, Stockton were hogging them all. Steals numbers hurt the "appearance" of Harpers defense. He rarely gambled and didn't play heavy minutes. Per 36 minute stats show he averaged 2 steals per game, his defensive rating in the playoffs for that season is 99, which is better than Dennis Johnson's in the '86 playoffs, better than Payton when he won defensive player of the year, better than Mookie on his all defensive 1st team years, better than Stockton on his all defensive 1st team years. Harper is truly one of the "forgotten" or underrated players when it comes to great defensive guards, and great role players. He had changed his game dramatically from being the high scoring athlete he was early in his career.

Again, what should be the most important part of this discussion, especially from the Bulls standpoint, is not individual play, or matchups, but rather the team play. I'm not sure how much of the Bulls you've watched, but saying they would play Bird on Longley and let him "roam", and leaving McHale on Pippen makes me believe you didn't watch them that much. The Bulls offense was a constantly flow of motion. Despite having two great scorers it wasn't about letting them do the work and other players spotting up, or standing around, or even posting up.. The Bulls actually utilized their big men. Longley for example would come outside the lane or to the high post, they would use his passing ability and cut around him.. Think of it like Divac in Sacramento or Sabonis in Portland, just on a much much smaller scale.. If Boston left McHale on Pippen or Parish on Rodman they would literally run circles around them and burn them into the ground by half time. I don't think you quite understand the movement, cutting, and passing Phil Jackson used with that Bulls squad. Every player had a role, there was no "roaming" defense, and there was no trying to double Jordan and Pippen. You could occasionally get away with doubling Jordan in small doses, but like Kobe and Gervin he had no problem sinking the shot over two defenders, and not like them more like D-Wade he was fine with passing out of a trap rather than taking a wild poor shot.

Also, the Bulls would use Kukoc in their line up quite often, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually played more minutes than Harper.. If I remember correctly a backcourt of Pippen, Jordan, Kukoc actually started a few playoff games.. Pippen was used to bringing the ball up the court anyways.. That lineup would cause even more problems for Boston because Pippen and/or Jordan is going to have a giant mismatch.. And if they don't Kukoc would have a giant size mismatch.

You also talk about Wennington basically being a non factor, but he was always a hard worker and gritty defense big. He wasn't going to score much, rebound much, block tons of shots, or even play big minutes, but he was going to bust his ***. His role was to cut mostly, I actually think he's had a couple game winning dunks in the playoffs from Jordan getting doubled and finding him inside. He had a habit of getting himself open and could finish, similar to Birdman in Miami. And Buechler/Longley both kept shot blockers away from the rim. Buechler actually had range out to the 3 point line and defenders had to chase him out. Longley stayed closer to the basket but you couldn't leave him open, and you couldn't double for a steal because of his passing.. Neither player would ever burn you offensively, but the space they cleared allowed Jordan to post up, where he was absolutely deadly.

Check out this YouTube clip. It's supposed to be a Scottie Pippen highlight, but I think it does a good job of showing how spread out Chicago's offense was, as well as the passing, cutting, moving..
http://youtu.be/mL0c61hOuAQ

Phil Jackson was an offensive wizard. There is a reason he has 11 championships, and a reason he could continue to win with guys like Paxson, Kerr, Fisher, Wennington, Longley, Samaki Walker, Slavo Medvedenko all playing big roles. What made the Bulls teams so special is that on top of Phil's game plan they also had the best player in the world, the best defense in the league, and the best rebounder ever..

Like I originally said, I do think Boston has a strong chance at beating Chicago, I think I'm the only person in this thread other than you that originally picked Boston to win.. I just think a lot of your assessments about Chicago were a little off. Still say this goes 7 games with me leaning towards Boston, but the gut says you'll lose money betting against MJ.


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[jjsmity]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

Still focusing an awful lot on the individually matchups rather than the team aspect.

First of all, I do not believe McHale can guard Pippen.. You mention Worthy, Nique, King.. But Worthy was only a 3rd option offensively, not a great shooter from the perimeter, not a superb ball handler nor all that quick/fast with the ball. King wasn't a great outside shooter nor a forward with a speed advantage, more of a powerful small forward who used his size/strength to get to his spot and then turn and shoot over his defenders.. McHale is the perfect defender for him honestly.

But LOL at even mentioning Wilkins. Nique torched Boston, multiple times actually.. And the only reason Boston was able to leave McHale on him is because Nique's jumpshot is about as consistent as Shaq's free throw shooting. McHale used to sag off of him 5+ feet man. Just glancing at basketball reference's head to head log, Nique's scoring vs McHale from years '84-'93 - 23,47,25, 39, 38, 36, 40, 24, 32, 34, 36, 42, 29, 38, 17(only played 23 minutes), 54, 36, 28, 22, 23, 38, 26, 35, 38, 14, 23, 27, 8, 26, 18, 13, 9, 31, 24, 36, 41, 19, 35. That's an average of 30ppg, 4 games over 40, once over 50. That list doesn't even include playoff numbers, where Nique had nights of 38 points, 37, 40, 35, 37. . So yes maybe McHale's reach and quickness did allow him to defend Nique, but he sure as hell wasn't effective. Nique was also shooting a ton of free throws against Boston, they couldn't contain his athleticism.. Chicago would have two guys attacking them rim like that, spells some trouble.

Not saying Pippen would go out and hang 40 on McHale but he's far to quick for McHale, much better with the ball in his hands than anyone McHale would normally guard often bringing the ball up the court himself, and unlike Nique wouldn't take 30 shots per game minimizing everyone else's impact.. If I were a Bulls fan I would actually feel more comfortable with McHale guarding Pippen than I would physical players like Rodman, Mason, McDaniel, or quick long guys like Shrempf, Wilkins.. Pippen had faced much bigger defensive challenges for him individually than what McHale would be, IMO. Pippen had also developed a reliable 3 point shot at this point in his career as well. 37% that season on over 5 attempts per game, thus making McHale's "sag off" method even less effective.

Dennis Johnson - it's not a real surprise that Gervin said Johnson was a tough defender, he's one of the best defensive point guards of all time. Gervin was a frail finesse scorer, weighed even less than even Steve Nash despite being a good 6'8".. Johnson didn't mind to play a more physical defense and being that he wasn't all that quick he relied on it. I'm sure Gervin hated that, he would have given the same compliment to bigger guards like Frazier, Payton, and Kidd as well. Still though, excluding his year with Chicago, Gervin averaged 27ppg on his career in games vs DJ. Eclipsing 40 three times. So even if he considered DJ his toughest defender it still didn't mean DJ was shutting him down, or even coming close to hindering his usual output. I would believe similar would happen with Jordan, the physical defense would also bother Jordan less than it did Gervin and Jordan could even post the smaller Johnson.

As far as what other players have said about other players: Jordan always considered Dumars and Richmond his toughest matchups.. Despite playing against and being defended by Dennis Johnson from the very season we are discussing.. But I believe what players say means very little anyways, but since you used it I figured I would too.

The front court matchup.. It's easy to just say "Parish trumps Longley" he's obviously a far and away the better player, and a Parish/Walton duo is quite a leap ahead of anything Chicago can throw out at the center spot.. But Chicago had always done fine against good big men, Longley was the definition of a good role player and Rodman/Pippen were always able to make up for any rebounding mismatch. Chicago didn't let Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, Smits, Daugherty, etc kill them so I highly doubt they let Parish kill them either.. Longley was huge, 7'2" up around 260-270 pounds, he could body up Parish and keep him uncomfortable.. I would see it as a similar match as Ewing. Both players (Ewing and Parish) want to step away and hit that little jump shot. Biggest difference is Ewing was bigger, stronger, a tougher force scoring near the basket, could put the ball on the floor better, and was the focal point of an offense rather than a 3-4 option..

No question Parish would get his points but it's not going to be some giant mismatch, Longley held his own defensively against great bigmen and would do the same against Parish/Walton, along with help from Rodman and the occasional spot minutes played by Wennington/Buechler (more on them later).. Also worth mentioning, in the playoffs that season Longley had a defensive rating of 100, and a block% of 5.2.. For comparison Hakeem was defensive player of the year in '94 with a defensive rating of 95 and block% of 5.7, Mutombo the next season 103 and 7.5, Robinson defensive 1st team in '95 with 99 and 5.9.. Obviously Longley is nowhere near the individual defender those guys are, but he was a very solid defensive big on a team that was loaded with great individual defenders. Parish in the '85-'86 playoffs: defensive rating of 104 and block% of 2.8.

Ron Harper - I'm not sure what makes you say Harper wasn't a good defender. I remember him as one of the best defensive guards in the league during that time, adding Harper before the 95 season is what helped the Bulls jump back to the top defensive team in the East before Jordan returned and before they added Rodman. Sure Harper had his limitations, he wasn't going to stop a lightning fast guard like Zeke or Iverson, and he wasn't going to contain a highly athletic scorer like Jordan or Kobe, but against the other 90% of the league he was a very tough matchup defensively.. Actually the fact that DJ was a bigger more average speed guard, and that Ainge wasn't a high powered scorer or extreme athlete, plays right into Harpers strengths. Harper didn't win any defensive awards but that's in large part because Mookie, Payton, Stockton were hogging them all. Steals numbers hurt the "appearance" of Harpers defense. He rarely gambled and didn't play heavy minutes. Per 36 minute stats show he averaged 2 steals per game, his defensive rating in the playoffs for that season is 99, which is better than Dennis Johnson's in the '86 playoffs, better than Payton when he won defensive player of the year, better than Mookie on his all defensive 1st team years, better than Stockton on his all defensive 1st team years. Harper is truly one of the "forgotten" or underrated players when it comes to great defensive guards, and great role players. He had changed his game dramatically from being the high scoring athlete he was early in his career.

Again, what should be the most important part of this discussion, especially from the Bulls standpoint, is not individual play, or matchups, but rather the team play. I'm not sure how much of the Bulls you've watched, but saying they would play Bird on Longley and let him "roam", and leaving McHale on Pippen makes me believe you didn't watch them that much. The Bulls offense was a constantly flow of motion. Despite having two great scorers it wasn't about letting them do the work and other players spotting up, or standing around, or even posting up.. The Bulls actually utilized their big men. Longley for example would come outside the lane or to the high post, they would use his passing ability and cut around him.. Think of it like Divac in Sacramento or Sabonis in Portland, just on a much much smaller scale.. If Boston left McHale on Pippen or Parish on Rodman they would literally run circles around them and burn them into the ground by half time. I don't think you quite understand the movement, cutting, and passing Phil Jackson used with that Bulls squad. Every player had a role, there was no "roaming" defense, and there was no trying to double Jordan and Pippen. You could occasionally get away with doubling Jordan in small doses, but like Kobe and Gervin he had no problem sinking the shot over two defenders, and not like them more like D-Wade he was fine with passing out of a trap rather than taking a wild poor shot.

Also, the Bulls would use Kukoc in their line up quite often, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually played more minutes than Harper.. If I remember correctly a backcourt of Pippen, Jordan, Kukoc actually started a few playoff games.. Pippen was used to bringing the ball up the court anyways.. That lineup would cause even more problems for Boston because Pippen and/or Jordan is going to have a giant mismatch.. And if they don't Kukoc would have a giant size mismatch.

You also talk about Wennington basically being a non factor, but he was always a hard worker and gritty defense big. He wasn't going to score much, rebound much, block tons of shots, or even play big minutes, but he was going to bust his ***. His role was to cut mostly, I actually think he's had a couple game winning dunks in the playoffs from Jordan getting doubled and finding him inside. He had a habit of getting himself open and could finish, similar to Birdman in Miami. And Buechler/Longley both kept shot blockers away from the rim. Buechler actually had range out to the 3 point line and defenders had to chase him out. Longley stayed closer to the basket but you couldn't leave him open, and you couldn't double for a steal because of his passing.. Neither player would ever burn you offensively, but the space they cleared allowed Jordan to post up, where he was absolutely deadly.

Check out this YouTube clip. It's supposed to be a Scottie Pippen highlight, but I think it does a good job of showing how spread out Chicago's offense was, as well as the passing, cutting, moving..
http://youtu.be/mL0c61hOuAQ

Phil Jackson was an offensive wizard. There is a reason he has 11 championships, and a reason he could continue to win with guys like Paxson, Kerr, Fisher, Wennington, Longley, Samaki Walker, Slavo Medvedenko all playing big roles. What made the Bulls teams so special is that on top of Phil's game plan they also had the best player in the world, the best defense in the league, and the best rebounder ever..

Like I originally said, I do think Boston has a strong chance at beating Chicago, I think I'm the only person in this thread other than you that originally picked Boston to win.. I just think a lot of your assessments about Chicago were a little off. Still say this goes 7 games with me leaning towards Boston, but the gut says you'll lose money betting against MJ.


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Matchups are important to any series, in fact that is what most posters have talked on, that is why I did more on them and edited OP. But i did focus on team offence/defensive options, team deface and rebounding.


worhty was faster than pipen if anything, he was only a third option [ he actually often scored more than magic and was great in playoffs, similar scorer to pip] because he had 2 top 5 players of all time ahead of him, did pipen ever have that?, 80's vs 90's. Worthey not a great outside shot, neither was pipen, inconstant. King did have best mid range game i have ever seen, but those were just names i picked from random he guarded, dantley and others, the point being he often guarded high scoring sf prefoot injury especially.


wilkins/mchale

lol watch this Kevin McHale Is Afraid of Dominique Wilkins’ Crotch
http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/20...ilkins-crotch/

I dont disgaree very much, first he was better scorer than pip, 3 time 30 plus lead league one year, his game against boston [and dunk] in 88 playoffs game 7 was a all time great. besides jordan [sometimes more than jordan] i cant think of anyone that caused more problems for c's than the human highlight reel still my all time in game dunker.

But his averages over career vs mchale were 26.6 and 25.7 in playoffs from .
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=mchalke01

slightly below his average for those years
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...wilkido01.html


but more important ,what of 85-86. The c's swept atlanta in four games and nique averaged 24.0ppg 3.8 apg .398%. That is a job well done by mchale on a legit superstar runner up mvp that year that averaged 30.3 a game on .468% mchale had 15 fouls over the 4 games,look at the fouls mchale drew from players like kevin willis and tree rollins, both more than dominque on mchale.


I think when you say mchale was slow, your referring to 86-7 and beyond, he put on alot of weight in 86-87 and slowed down. In 85-86 still had speed and pip at 30 was not the fastest he had been. Mchale would have to give up the outside shot to offset the speed, of course mchale would fall back in transition not guard pipen up court [he wouldn't be able to], pips 37% 3pt was only because shorter nba line watch here

How a short 3 point line helped the Chicago Bulls win 72 games in 1995-96.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basket...point_line.htm


in this series would they play normal 3 pt line? or at least the games in boston would have to use normal nba line.

pipen never faced a all nba player in playoffs, yet look at his numbers playoffs 16.9 ppg .390%, you say those other both more phsycal and faster [seems contradictory] would be better. I dont think any non bulls fan would claim anyone of those guys better at defending [but rodman maybe] than mchale. Length [mchale arms] counts as speed, it makes court smaller with less space to shoot and less space to drive by, that is why mchale could guard faster players, leave pip from outside still get at shot with length is effective strategy. I still think pip is threat, but less efficient than normal ,maybe between his regular seas and playoff averages.



dennis johnson
that is very interesting thank you, however a 6'9 magic johson had size and weight on DJ and called him the best ever [he was also guarded by jordan magic was].I would like to see the quotes if you could find them on dumars and richmond, I am thinking he might have meant overall matchup offence/defense, both were better offensive than DJ and dumars multiple all defensive team awards like DJ. If you read my op, i think jordan gets his as well, but 32 post up jordan to me is better fitted for dj to guard than younger jordan. Also I see payton as similar to DJ 6'4 both great defenders, when Seattle switched payton on jordan, his stat line went like this 6/19 23 points
11/22 26 points 5/19 22 points.



parish.longley

May i suggest in part what was used against the big centers was jordan/pipen double down? something they would get burned for against a team that had multiple scores and great passing like the c's. Bird sends low to parish, pip doubels, bird open 3. Double comes from other side /harper jordan ball swings open wedman/ainge/jerry shot. Besides ewing,shaq's numbers were both up in 96 playoffs vs bulls, suppose to go down, even kemps were up hes at pf not dominate low center. Parish with a mismathed would be used more, also in part when i say mismatch i mean both offence/defense what they give to team. If rodman were to come over to guard center position ,than who guards mchale? given rodman would likely get fouls and he played less minutes than mchale, i just dont see that ever happening. I know i use as well but def rating can be misleading.


harper
I shall look into him more,watching 96 finals soon. I know i use def rating at times but that is often misleading, I will edit my op on harper if true, i also never said he was bad, just never won any awards, given he was sg not pg most time, that would give him two spots to earn a award if he was that great. Also boston rarley went to ainge to create, his job was to take advantage of open shots from doubles and ball movement. I may just add in op he was a good defender with length, but not a elite defender that won any awards, would that be better?




team
i agree with you actually, but individual matchups are important, its not like during the 96 season they stooped lineup matchups because the bulls played as a "team" and triangle offence. You want to see picks/cuts and big men passing watch 86 c's. I also feel you have not seen much 86 mchale given your statements. When i say bird could roam it does not simply mean leave his man, watch 86 finals and you will see what i am referring to.


kukoc at sg?
please read my versatility on 86 c's, no matter what linup chi put is, they cannot defend c's. Plus kukoc has to guard someone and someone has to play bostons big men, mchale could be put at 3 to guard pip and post up pip, that would be large advantage in post for mchale. Bird could than play sg and post up kukoc or score any other way. jordan would still have dj on him and pip mchale.



wennigton

you said

"You also talk about Wennington basically being a non factor, but he was always a hard worker and gritty defense big. He wasn't going to score much, rebound much, block tons of shots, or even play big minutes, but he was going to bust his ***"

that was nice way of what i said, hes a none factor, i am glad he worked hard but he wont contribute like a walton. that i could also say about greg kite on the c's, but that is why he sat the bench.



video

thanks that was great.

phil agreed. Also i would say wateredown 90's allowed him to win with those players.




If I were to edit my op or were you would say my assessment is off most, were would it be.


thanks to you I edited this, good job and please tell me what you think

Harper was a good defender,but not a elite defender and had no defensive awards, but was long and had 2 inch height advantage. Ainge does no better or worse than average. Ainge still scores off outside shots from kickouts and drive to lane when open. He would have trouble creating from nothing against harper that would slightly reduce numbers, but in 86 that was not his role.


and this

Clear mismatch in talent here, longley never any defensive awards matched against a HOF top 50 player. Parish would be a constant high % threat on offense or force a double team. Longely had size and would make parish fight for position and would do good job battling for it, but Parishes numbers would be higher than normal and longley would struggle to keep pace with parish in open court and fast breaks..

[jjsmity]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

what do you guys think of this?


I see DJ as similar to gary payton, both 6'4 dj had alittel more size, both multiple all nba defenders. In the 96 finals game 4 when seattle switched payton on to jordan and won 2/3 games. He held jordan to 6/19 .316% 23 points 11/22 .500% 26 points and 5/19 .263% 22 points. Over three games with payton on him jordan averaged 23.7ppg .367% .111 3pt%.



this also responds to some that say matchups were underrated because bulls offence. Clearly they matter

How putting Gary Payton on Michael Jordan sooner could have changed the 1996 NBA Finals
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/f...996-nba-finals

jordan 96 finals last 3 games when they switched payton on him.

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

I think you're missing what I'm saying about McHale.. I'm definitely not saying any of those guys I listed are better defensive players than McHale, but they are tougher matchups for Pippen. Scottie faired worse against the dirty physical players, and against players who were quicker than him while not giving up much size.

I didn't say McHale was slow, I said he was slower than Pippen. The fact that McHale would sag off, and was slower than Pippen makes him a better matchup for Scottie than the guys I mentioned.. Pippen had nearly a full 2 seasons without Jordan in Chicago and faired just fine as a go to option against every teams best defender.. You act as if nobody good defensively has ever been on him.

Worthy is definitely not faster/quicker than Pippen.. And even IF we were to say he was we would be talking full sprint. Worthy is not as quick as Pippen in the half court, nor as explosive, nor as good or as quick as Pippen with the ball in his hands. The reason I said Worthy was a 3rd option was because he played behind Magic and Kareem in the offense. Yes Worthy would sometimes be the top scorer, but it wasn't their focal point. He scored a lot of his points running the break with Magic, and feeding off Magic's play making in the half court. He wasn't a player you gave the ball to and him go create his own looks. Offensively he posted more, which again makes it much easier for someone like McHale to guard him.

Again I'm not calling McHale slow, but he's not as quick as the explosive wing players. Just being a high scorer doesn't mean you're an impossible matchup. McHale was able to do a good job against stronger slower forwards, and guys who didn't hurt you from the perimeter.. Which is why he's suited better guarding guys like King, English, Dantley, Worthy, Barkley, Etc. McHale's strength is not guarding guys quicker than him, especially ones who could shoot well. You mentioned Nique's career average against him being 27ppg, I excluded the first two seasons of his career because he was yet to become an all star level player, and McHale had yet to become the full time starter.. From that point on Nique did average 30 ppg playing against McHale. In the '85/'86 season Nique averaged 35ppg against Boston. In the playoffs Nique had two horrible shooting performances, 4/15 and 7/22.. Which I already mentioned he was a wildly inconsistent shooter, which is what allowed McHale to play 5+ feet off him. And the 5th game Nique only played 22 minutes.. The other two games, he dropped 38 and 37. I would hardly call that a job well done, but more of a thank god he was off the first two games.

Obviously guarding Pippen and guarding Nique isn't the same.. I never claimed it was, you're the one who brought up Wilkins in the first place.. Nique is definitely a better scorer, but most of that is because he took about 8 more shots per game than Pippen and as a "go-to" scorer got himself to the free throw line more often.. He was not a better shooter than Scottie. He had the ability to get extremely hot and then seemingly never miss, but Scottie was fairly easily a more reliable and more consistent shooter.. Shortened 3 point line or not, doesn't change my point about Scottie. I was never saying he was a good 3 point shooter, it was just to stretch my point that McHale couldn't just hang off him 5 feet. Pippen can knock down those uncontested jumpers. Obviously Nique is a little more explosive than Scottie, but Pip gives McHale a similar issue defensively, and that is a lightning quick first step. Pippen's quickness in the half court would be closer to guarding Nique than the other guys that have been mentioned.. To make the comparison easy, guarding Scottie Pippen would be a lot like trying to guard Clyde Drexler. Even though Drexler is a SG, they compare more so than any of the small forwards McHale would have defended.

Kukoc, no he wasn't playing shooting guard. The Bulls would use a line up of PG: Pippen, SG: Jordan, SF: Kukoc.. Thus leaving Ainge to defend Jordan or Pippen, massive mismatch.

Harper: you can word it however you want, the point is Harper was a very good defender and DJ/Ainge aren't great scorers or great athletes. Thus only strengthening Harper's effectiveness.

Pippen and Jordan weren't nearly as likely to double down during the 2nd three peat. Rodman almost never needed help and Longley was always big enough to keep his man uncomfortable.. Ewing had the most success because he could put the ball on the floor and drive around Longely, other than him the Bulls big men defended great players very well. Parish is by no means a dominant scorer anyways and Boston would never toss aside their gameplan to run everything through him anyways.

You aren't realizing the impact Wennington could have, as well as Longley/Buechler.. It's not about looking at his stats, he only played 9 minutes per game in the playoffs of course he isn't going to have good stats.. Point is he was a good defender and rebounder, and like Longely and Jud he hit midrange shots, saw the floor well, and helped spread the offense out.. It wasn't about him getting buckets, it was about keeping the help defense away from the rim so Jordan and Pippen could score.. Which is why I posted that clip for you to watch.

Jordan said Richmond was his toughest matchup, said that Dumars was the best to defend him. Does that clear it up?

Payton never individually shut down Jordan. He pissed him off, as a result Jordan did miss some easy looks, the only player I had ever saw be even remotely effective at getting into Jordan's head. But Seattle was doubling him off every screen and bringing help at him every time he drove. The only thing Payton really did individually that was that great against MJ was front him in the post very well.. Could DJ do the same? Perhaps, but DJ wasn't near quick enough to guard him off the dribble the way Payton could.


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[airjoca]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

I can summarize all this discussion in two words:

Michael Jordan

[jjsmity]

Re: 86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

I think you're missing what I'm saying about McHale.. I'm definitely not saying any of those guys I listed are better defensive players than McHale, but they are tougher matchups for Pippen. Scottie faired worse against the dirty physical players, and against players who were quicker than him while not giving up much size.

I didn't say McHale was slow, I said he was slower than Pippen. The fact that McHale would sag off, and was slower than Pippen makes him a better matchup for Scottie than the guys I mentioned.. Pippen had nearly a full 2 seasons without Jordan in Chicago and faired just fine as a go to option against every teams best defender.. You act as if nobody good defensively has ever been on him.

Worthy is definitely not faster/quicker than Pippen.. And even IF we were to say he was we would be talking full sprint. Worthy is not as quick as Pippen in the half court, nor as explosive, nor as good or as quick as Pippen with the ball in his hands. The reason I said Worthy was a 3rd option was because he played behind Magic and Kareem in the offense. Yes Worthy would sometimes be the top scorer, but it wasn't their focal point. He scored a lot of his points running the break with Magic, and feeding off Magic's play making in the half court. He wasn't a player you gave the ball to and him go create his own looks. Offensively he posted more, which again makes it much easier for someone like McHale to guard him.

Again I'm not calling McHale slow, but he's not as quick as the explosive wing players. Just being a high scorer doesn't mean you're an impossible matchup. McHale was able to do a good job against stronger slower forwards, and guys who didn't hurt you from the perimeter.. Which is why he's suited better guarding guys like King, English, Dantley, Worthy, Barkley, Etc. McHale's strength is not guarding guys quicker than him, especially ones who could shoot well. You mentioned Nique's career average against him being 27ppg, I excluded the first two seasons of his career because he was yet to become an all star level player, and McHale had yet to become the full time starter.. From that point on Nique did average 30 ppg playing against McHale. In the '85/'86 season Nique averaged 35ppg against Boston. In the playoffs Nique had two horrible shooting performances, 4/15 and 7/22.. Which I already mentioned he was a wildly inconsistent shooter, which is what allowed McHale to play 5+ feet off him. And the 5th game Nique only played 22 minutes.. The other two games, he dropped 38 and 37. I would hardly call that a job well done, but more of a thank god he was off the first two games.

Obviously guarding Pippen and guarding Nique isn't the same.. I never claimed it was, you're the one who brought up Wilkins in the first place.. Nique is definitely a better scorer, but most of that is because he took about 8 more shots per game than Pippen and as a "go-to" scorer got himself to the free throw line more often.. He was not a better shooter than Scottie. He had the ability to get extremely hot and then seemingly never miss, but Scottie was fairly easily a more reliable and more consistent shooter.. Shortened 3 point line or not, doesn't change my point about Scottie. I was never saying he was a good 3 point shooter, it was just to stretch my point that McHale couldn't just hang off him 5 feet. Pippen can knock down those uncontested jumpers. Obviously Nique is a little more explosive than Scottie, but Pip gives McHale a similar issue defensively, and that is a lightning quick first step. Pippen's quickness in the half court would be closer to guarding Nique than the other guys that have been mentioned.. To make the comparison easy, guarding Scottie Pippen would be a lot like trying to guard Clyde Drexler. Even though Drexler is a SG, they compare more so than any of the small forwards McHale would have defended.

Kukoc, no he wasn't playing shooting guard. The Bulls would use a line up of PG: Pippen, SG: Jordan, SF: Kukoc.. Thus leaving Ainge to defend Jordan or Pippen, massive mismatch.

Harper: you can word it however you want, the point is Harper was a very good defender and DJ/Ainge aren't great scorers or great athletes. Thus only strengthening Harper's effectiveness.

Pippen and Jordan weren't nearly as likely to double down during the 2nd three peat. Rodman almost never needed help and Longley was always big enough to keep his man uncomfortable.. Ewing had the most success because he could put the ball on the floor and drive around Longely, other than him the Bulls big men defended great players very well. Parish is by no means a dominant scorer anyways and Boston would never toss aside their gameplan to run everything through him anyways.

You aren't realizing the impact Wennington could have, as well as Longley/Buechler.. It's not about looking at his stats, he only played 9 minutes per game in the playoffs of course he isn't going to have good stats.. Point is he was a good defender and rebounder, and like Longely and Jud he hit midrange shots, saw the floor well, and helped spread the offense out.. It wasn't about him getting buckets, it was about keeping the help defense away from the rim so Jordan and Pippen could score.. Which is why I posted that clip for you to watch.

Jordan said Richmond was his toughest matchup, said that Dumars was the best to defend him. Does that clear it up?

Payton never individually shut down Jordan. He pissed him off, as a result Jordan did miss some easy looks, the only player I had ever saw be even remotely effective at getting into Jordan's head. But Seattle was doubling him off every screen and bringing help at him every time he drove. The only thing Payton really did individually that was that great against MJ was front him in the post very well.. Could DJ do the same? Perhaps, but DJ wasn't near quick enough to guard him off the dribble the way Payton could.


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Good post, we only seem really to disagree on mchale [not his speed- neither call him fast or slow] ability to guard faster players, hopefully i can show why I see this as not a problem for mchale pre foot injury to guard a 30 year old pip.



No I understand what you were saying on mchale, i just disagree. Especially when your trying to say the 90's was more physical than the 80's [defenders] who mostley player pf and c, or faster like shrempf. Can you show me were pip faced anyone like mchale? we can only look to stats between between 88-93 when mchale was old/slow and pipen young. However his stats in 91/92 [age 27] are better than 95-96. Also 92=93 are about equal. His career over 22 games was 17.8 on .479 and never scored above 30, the one game he did mchale must have had injuries and played only 18 minutes and old/slow. Pipen when faster and younger did not torch boston ,so why would older slower pipens speed effect a younger mchale?



pip in 93-5
I agree he was as great than, but we are talking of pip in 96 [30 years old] with jordan on team, he plays worse with jordan, when hes go to guy and leader he plays better. Other bulls played better when jordan was not there as well, lok at grant/BJ etc


I disagree on worthy not being faster, the reason the lakers fast break was so good was not just magic, but because they had worthy filling the lane outrunning the forwards to go with guards for a 3v2. His moves [in half court] such as his spin move was crazy fast, he also was better offensive most years and career than pip, also in playoffs as well.


Nique/pipen/ mchale guarding

so we both agree nique is a similar player in tearms of speed, as pipen. we both agree he was better on offence in 86 than pip in 96. So I want to compare nique in 86 guarded by mchale.

pip 96 19.4 .463% age 30 [not his best year]
Dominique 86 runner up MVP [to bird] 30.3 .468% age 26 that was his best year.

I have to point out the c's were 10-1 against hawks that year. K.C often allowed other players single star to score, but shutdown all others look at jordan ]. his season average in all games 11 comes to 29.8ppg on 24.1 fga a game 46%.. 11 games is a large sample to test, those numbers are right around his average, and when it was important such as playoffs and a series [such as hypothetical 96 bulls vs 86 c's], he was shut down by mchale. No other player/team [not including Denver only 2 games] shut down wilkins that year like mchale in playoffs over 5 games.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/splits/1986/


now you claim his games he did bad was his shooting was off, other games he was on. That may work for a game or two, but over 11 games is a great test to show constancy, also its completely arbitrary, I could equally say he was lucky and on fire the games he did good, otherwise mchale would have held him to his lower numbers.


Dominique when he score great against mchale.

I watched yesterday the 88 playoffs game 7 what many call Dominique best game ever, the shootout with bird. He had 47 points on .576%. keep in mind this in in 87-88 when mchale is 30 and post foot injury and slower, nique goes off and is on fire, much harder to guard when his outside shot is falling. nique is 28 and scores his career high of 30.7 that season [mchale holds him to 44% shooting that series and below average scoring and % during regular season] the game is avalibel online.


mchale had a hand in his face almost every jumpshot. Nique was 30.7 that year and makes shots anyways sometimes. Some shots mchale left to help than they hit him on kick out, other times was when mchale was on bench and Dominique went off usually. The first 3 periods once mchale goes out nique gets hot. Mchale had 4 blocks that game and a clear one on nique with 1 min left that was called a foul. dominuqe got by mchale maybe 4 time that game, and even then a couple mchale long arms reached from behind to contest/force shot. He did a great job of keeping wilkins out of paint and from driving, The haws did a clear out for nique a couple times with mchale to give space,nique kept him out and forced outside contested shot ,mchale had hand in face/near ball almost 100% of time, so he can back off the 3-5 feet to negate fast firststep and still effect the shot of pipen, as kareem said

"He had the arms of a 15-foot man, and they either didn't have any joints, or the joints swiveled in every conceivable direction. Seriously, his arms would twist and bend in ways that no human limb ever should. It's a little creepy. Okay, a lot creepy." (Courtesy of basketbawful.com.)"

exaggerated but mchales length allowed him to contest shots even when he was backed off them.plus the c's would live with pipen outside shooting, sometimes he would hit sometimes not, but take away his slashing and playmaking.


also bird would be there for his specialty held d, and parish/walton to protect hope from slashers with fouls to use they dont need on longley/rodman/weennigton.

also notice the 88 game, when parish is not doubled he often becomes go to guy [till bird gts hot].


Given dominques numbers and better offence in 86 than pip in 96, and given pips numbers in playoffs and mchale defense in playoffs, his defense even past his foot injury and slower, mchale played better on Dominique in 86 playoffs than anyone did all year, and that mchale held nique lower than % and scoring averages [such as 87-88 season/playoffs]after injury I say its more than fair to say pipens numbers would take a good hit.



"The Bulls would use a line up of PG: Pippen, SG: Jordan, SF: Kukoc.. "

there si no lineup you could put out to cause mismacthes, were as boston could put out a line to always have mismacthes, they were far more versatile. So here if the bulls did this than boston would go 1 mchale 2 johnson 3 bird 4 walton 5 parish defensive.

so know we have mvp bird guarded by maybe bulls weakest defender kukoc= big mismatch. Still have parish big mismatch,and know mchale can post up against 6'7 pipen. Three msimatches and all your players and top scores [all on permiter] still have same defenders on them jordan/pipen. We would still have a point johnson/outside shooting bird, and 3 post players walton/parish/mchale. Unless you are going to put kukoc on mchale? I dont think you would suggest that either. That would make our rebounding advantage even greater. I would love that lineup match.



parish
when was it ever against gameplan to get parish ball low? watch the 88 game when he is not doubled they stop going to mchale and go to him because they were not doubling. This is a guy who at 35 was all nba shot 57% on 18.6 a game when bird was out that year. At 32 even better,just less minutes/touches. It was never out of game plan to attack a mismatch or go to parish at any time. They used him to attack kareem and other great centers always. The gameplan against the 96 chicago team would be clear, get the ball down low.




Wennington/longley

yes i dont give them these great defender titles and great shotters, rebounders etc mosltey because they were not and there stats show it. You think them good but parish give no credit to.

here is rookie wennigtons numbers
.471 2.4 rebounds [yeah hes great at rebounding] 3.4 points [what a outside shooter he must be]. Oh and none ever called him a good defender but you.

longley

good year for him
.482 5.1 rebounds 9.1 points. Given his size he was not a terrible center. but given C has been most dominate position in nba history ,hard to see a team being called best ever with these two.


Richmond/dumars

if you could find quote than yes


payton/dj

plus johnson had more size against post, jordan at 32 was less driving more post up/midrange. If anything it fits dj better. I think it is clear and showed the difference was "the glove" that 9 time all nba defender that was guarding him.

[ojandpizza]

86 CELTICS VS THE 96 BULLS AND WHY THE 86 C'S ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER

1.) I never said defense in the 90's was more physical than the 80's???

2.) yes Pippen was 30. Why you keep acting like he was over the hill I'll never understand. Is 30 some magical cutoff age? LeBron turns 30 in December, is he going to hit some decline once that happens?

3.) why would guarding a 30 year old Pip be more difficult to defend?? I have no idea why you even need to ask, the answer is simple Pippen was BETTER at 30. He was a better ball handler, passer, shooter, rebounder, bigger, stronger, and just came off his best year ever.

4.) Pippen did not play worse with Jordan lol... I never acted like Pippen was going to drop 30 a game, I just said McHale will have a hard time defending him. Pippen was as much of a playmaker as he was a scorer, him beating you off the dribble hurts more than someone like Nique beating you off the dribble.

5.) I just said in my last post that if we were to call Worthy faster it would be on the break? He's definitely not faster with the ball in his hands because he isn't half the ball handler Pippen was. Didn't have Pippen's first step. Better offensively doesn't mean anything, I don't get how you don't see it's the matchup not the points. Worthy couldn't shoot that well, McHale could sag off. He scored a lot playing inside, easy for McHale to defend. He's a better matchup, easily, plain as day.

6.) holding Nique to 30 a game is good defense? Ok then. Nique did shoot bad in those two games? How is that even an argument to question? 4/15 and 7/22. Like I said he's a streaky shooter. His lowest game other than that? 24 points where he also shot pretty rough 7/20.. Every other game was over 30 points, twice scoring over 40. And the next season he burned him for 54. Not that this had anything to do with Pippen, idk why you keep bringing it up.

7.) again it's not about Pippen scoring. Nobody believes he's going to score as much as Nique or even take enough shots too.. Trying to compare that is getting so far off topic, and not relevant at all to the Bulls play style.

8.) LOL at Boston throwing in McHale, Bird, Parish, Walton, when the hell did that ever happen?

9.) idk why you are giving me Wennington's stats.. Dude played like 9 minutes per game. How do you average a good stat like in 9 minutes.. You obviously don't understand the value of a role player.

10.) A quote? Jordan has called Dumars the best defender he ever faced multiple times, he's said that for years? If you want the quote you can google it, I'm sure it's all over the web.

11.) DJ just no.


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