ESPN Top 100 list

[J_Posse]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

My issue is why point at legitimate great players that did it for a majority, if not the entirety, of their careers, yet ignore the placement of Curry and Westbrook, AlexBrady?

I'm not going to bash older players that were great just to prop up my favorites, but I will point to the obvious bias to the current era when this list was published/created. Even LeBron is too damn high when he is probably only half way through his career and has begun to truly decline.

I would list any of the all-time greats you mentioned, AlexBrady, but not at the expense of David Robinson, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Kevin Durant, etc. Instead, they should be in place of Curry (too high), Westbrook (too high), Kevin Love (shouldn't be on list, yet), James Harden (same), Blake Griffin (same) and Marc Gasol (LOL).

from Spurs Nation/Bills Backer HQ

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

At the same time why not put those guys on the list just because they haven't retired? Grant Hill, Bill Walton have about as much relevance to the league as them, as well as other players on this list with relatively short primes.

Unless a career ending stat total, or ring count dramatically sways your voting process then I don't have a problem with those guys being there. I don't think the list in general is supposed to be a measuring stick of necessarily the totality of each players careers, but maybe more swayed to how good the players were at their best.. Otherwise Kareem and Russell would be 1 and 2 no? Bill Walton, Grant Hill, T-Mac, Bernard King they wouldn't even be on the list.

Curry is really the only one who sticks out as possibly not having "enough" as he's really only had a season and half playing at a level that would qualify him to be listed with these guys. But this is nothing new, Shaq was nominated a top 50 player ever after like 3 years in the league.

For example, Blake Griffin could retire tomorrow and he would still in my opinion be deservingly ranked above Kemp. I don't need to see what he does when he's 35 to make that placement. Kemp had some deeper playoff pushes than Blake has had, but I don't think that's supposed to be the measuring sick here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Westbrook has no business being in the top 50, I missed spotting his placement. He forces shots, forces dribbles and passes, and is an erratic shooter. Stephen Curry looks to be a legitimately great player though, if ranked a tad too high. I am very impressed with the current state of Curry's game.

I am not a fan of Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, and David Robinson as most of you know. Kevin Durant, to me, is much better than George Gervin ever was. I think he is a great one, though he lacks overwhelming strength.

My particular interest in the list mainly covered the top 50.

Shawn Kemp's game was more advanced than Blake Griffin's. Kemp was stronger, a better shooter, low post player, and shot-blocker.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I feel the complete opposite. Blake's game is more advanced than Kemp's. Kemp threw his body around, and relied on his athleticism to always go 100 miles an hour. Every gripe you have about Westbrook was Kemp in a power forward version times 10. Though even Westbrook has fixed the majority of his flaws at this point, something Kemp never did.

Kemp was not a good shooter. Idk what you were seeing when you watched him play but he was incredibly inconsistent. I just posted his poor numbers in my last post, and even those percentages are likely a result of the occasional games where he was hot. There was nothing consistent about him.

He was a better low post scorer, but mostly because he used his body better than Blake does. Blake is just as efficient in the paint, he just doesn't rely on his strength the way Kemp did. And honestly as long as DJ is around we won't know what Blake's ceiling as s low post scorer will ever be.

Blake is a better shooter, passer, rebounder, ball handler. He legitimately has guard-forward ball handling and passing abilities.. Something Kemp always had the talent to have but never mastered it and routinely turned the ball over. Actually I'm quite sure his turnovers would far outweigh his assists. He never made smart decisions.

I always considered Blake and Kemp fairly comparable. But the way Blake has evolved the past few years he's clearly become the better player. What he did when Chris Paul missed extended time proved that he can carry a team himself and looked far better than Kemp at any point of his career during that stretch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Kemp was quick, fast, strong, and explosive. He was 6-10 and 280 pounds. He could establish and maintain deep post position which Griffin cannot do. He had tighter spin moves and smoother turnarounds. Kemp's face up game had more pull-up possibilities than Griffin. Kemp was a much better free throw shooter. Griffin gets lost when playing off the ball defense and therefore cannot block or harass shots.

Shawn Kemp dominated one of the finest defensive teams of all time at the highest level of the sport. Griffin hasn't done that yet.

[PabloLFC]

ESPN Top 100 list

he didn't dominate them, he averaged 23 and 10 with four turnovers. the sonics were so reliant on Payton stopping Jordan in those finals. was he the best player in that series? possibly, but he didn't dominate them, they lost 4-2.

shot blocking today isn't what it was 20 years ago either. everybody is more perimeter orientated these days, there aren't many bigs going against each other and getting blocks. Dwight being a punchline is an example of how quickly the game has shifted, he was considered a complete player 5 years ago and won 3 DPOY in a row, now it's somebody like kawhi because the perimeter is much more important in today's game


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Westbrook has no business being in the top 50, I missed spotting his placement. He forces shots, forces dribbles and passes, and is an erratic shooter

This is more Westbrook 3-4 years ago.

Anybody who still makes these claims about him I legitimately feel they either blindly refuse to change their opinions on him or simply aren't watching him play enough. The way he's changed his ability to read when to pass vs when to shoot, and when to go 100 miles per hour and when to change pace is probably the biggest change in any player I've watch in my lifetime.

Not only is he still an elite scorer but he's became a top level playmaker as well. He's 2nd in the league in assists despite Durant coming back and his usage dropping from what it was last year. (People claimed his usage was why he had assists and triple doubles last season). He leads the league in tripe doubles. Best rebounding guard in the league, one of the best defensive guards in the league, his assist to turnover ration is better than any of the top guards behind Rondo and Paul, he's 3rd in the league in points created off assists, 2nd in the league in passes that lead to assists or free throws. He has arguably became the most lethal combination of scoring and passing that the league has right now.

In fact, if you combine his points per game and points generated from assists per game he's actually ahead of Curry. He's also responsible for a larger portion of his teams points, roughly 42% of them compared to Curry's 39% of his. This is all with his usage lower than Curry's as well.

Not sure if I would land him in my top 50 for his career, but the past two seasons he has had have been nothing short of incredible. There are plenty of other players on this list who could never consistently dish out the type of all around effectiveness Russ has shown the past two years.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Kemp was quick, fast, strong, and explosive. He was 6-10 and 280 pounds. He could establish and maintain deep post position which Griffin cannot do. He had tighter spin moves and smoother turnarounds. Kemp's face up game had more pull-up possibilities than Griffin. Kemp was a much better free throw shooter. Griffin gets lost when playing off the ball defense and therefore cannot block or harass shots.



Shawn Kemp dominated one of the finest defensive teams of all time at the highest level of the sport. Griffin hasn't done that yet.

You keep ignoring the fact that a player doesn't have to play the way you want them to play for them to be good/great.

Could Kemp establish and maintain post position? Sure he could.. Blake cannot do that consistently just as you said.. The difference is Blake DOESNT NEED to be able to that because his game has strengths in so many different areas. Just like your argument against Robinson. He didn't need the post moves you were referring to, just like Jordan never needed Curry's 3 point shot or Iverson's crossover. LeBron didn't need Jordan and Kobe's pretty post footwork to lead the league in points per post up and FG% from post ups. Their game never has to be what someone wants it to look like if it's effective. Larry Bird had an ugly shot, did it matter?

I wouldn't say Kemp dominated them. He played well so I'm not taking that away from him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Kemp was uncontrollable in the Finals against Chicago. They had ready answers for every other opponent during the 95-96 season, not Kemp. Chicago smartly forced Payton into guarding Jordan on baseline post ups/isos which limited his defensive influence. That was the biggest reason why Chicago won.

I was referring to Blake Griffin losing track of his man when playing off the ball. Although he is also inept when a guy comes right at him with the ball. Anyone who understands the game knew that Dwight Howard was highly overrated all along. His three Defensive Player of the year awards were the result of him selling out for blocks and therefore completely undeserved.

Westbrook is still forcing his usual three shots per game and making bad decisions when he overpenetrates. He registers assists because those are the only types of passes he makes. Rarely will he make a simple wing pass, cut through the middle, set a screen and emerge on the other side with different options. He doesn't make facilitating passes. His defense is poor in the games I've seen him, which numbers over 30 times this season.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Well that's not true because he was also amongst the top leaders in hockey assists too.. So those cant be the ONLY passes he makes.

His occasional bad 3 point attempts is the biggest flaw in his game right now. But he only takes 4 total a game, until he's taking so many that it hurts his teams overall performance I can't see it as something that should down play his abilities as a whole. Something as small as shooting 1 or 2 less jumpers a game isn't making or breaking anybody.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Also Kemp did probably have the series of his life against Chicago. But why does one series elevate his entire career to that magnitude, especially a series he lost?

Shaq, Malone, Ewing, they all had the same level of play against Chicago that Kemp did. Kemp was a matchup problem for Chicago so were guys like Penny Hardaway, Dale Davis, others. Kemp was just greatly outplayed the series before that one by Malone, then outplayed and beat by a 35 year old Barkley the next season. Not to mention a couple years prior he was completely embarrassed by the 8 seed Nuggets, having the worst playoff performance of any player we've even mentioned during this discussion.

Just because the Bulls defense was great and he had a great 1 series against them shouldn't propel his entire career to something it never was. You can't base his career on 6 games. Bedsides, Chicago was asking for that when they decided to not play Rodman on him full time anyways.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Journey96]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Also Kemp did probably have the series of his life against Chicago. But why does one series elevate his entire career to that magnitude, especially a series he lost?

It doesn't. It was clear to me at the start of this debate that he's living on his own private island. He of course has the right to believe whatever he wants, but debating with him seems pointless. He clearly isn't going budge.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Westbrooks's lightning penetrations force defenses to collapse which results in him kicking out passes and the ball being swung for a three pointer. The good defenses in the playoffs will plug the middle and at the same time overplay his strong side passing lanes.

Forced shots are empty possessions. In the playoffs, every possession is crucial.

The series of his life? I don't think so. Kemp was simply demonstrating the level his game was at. The game to game performance that Finals competition offers is crucial when evaluating any player. Rodman couldn't get to grips with Kemp's power. Luc Longley, a terrific positional post defender, also had no answers.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

How do yall feel about Yao on this list?

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

How do yall feel about Yao on this list?

Number 89 seems about right for Yao. His shooting range and turnaround jumpers gave him great versatility and he could spin in the low post and make accurate passes. On the other hand he was a one space rebounder and a laterally-challenged defender.