Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Last year wasn't even LeBron's best playoff run though. So what exactly is your point about ignoring his other finals? He didn't play well at all against Dallas, being a sidekick isn't his game nor what was best for that team. I believe had D Wade given him the reigns before that happened they win that series, but that's completely off topic...

If you want to say 6-0 in the finals makes Jordan have a better resumè then by all means use that. But a finals record doesn't = better player. I'm not going to even argue for LeBron being better, but using that against him doesn't hold much much ground. Did Jordan make 4 straight finals before retirement, or after? No. LeBron has now made 6 straight. Does that make him better than MJ? No. That's the flip side of the ring argument, something that a team accomplishes won't ever equate to one player being superior to another on the court. Sure legacy can change with hardware, but that's more so a different argument.

If I had to say so I would probably say Jordan is the most competitive athlete I've ever watched. But I don't know that for a fact. I don't know how to read players minds. How can anyone say LeBron doesn't want to win to the degree Jordan did? Because he doesn't take 30 contested shots in a game? That's not his game. It's Jordan, Kobe, Iverson, those are the types to get the "competitive", "will to win", monikers.. What do they all have in common? Exactly. I'm not arguing Jordan was the degree of "ball hog" for lack of a better term the other two were, though he never had to be, that's not my argument. But how can someone say they wanted it more than the likes of Magic, LeBron, Duncan, etc just because their play-style was to take large volumes of shots? Having that opinion is fine obviously, but using it as its a fact to say "well so and so isn't as good because I believe this person wanted it more because I can read minds" is silly.






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[ojandpizza]

Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

To answer the OP directly, I actually believe Jordan's name is MUCH bigger now than it ever was as a player. MJ isn't even remembered for the player he was.

He's a tall tale that keeps growing, he's incomparable, an untouchable legend who at this point has grown so large that the representation of him is more of a myth than an athlete. Even if a player "passes" him or is considered better than him, even just at his level, the world will never allow them to be equal/better than something that's already labeled as the GOAT. He's the Muhammad Ali of basketball, the Babe Ruth, the Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt, but actually perceived as larger than all of them even combined.

At the time of his retirement it wasn't that way. Sure he was considered by many the best player to ever play the game. But if someone said "Magic was better", "Big O was better", "Bill was better", etc. the opinion/argument was allowed to be had. Now it's not. But by all means compare modern greats to any other former player you want to, just don't dare put their name and MJ's in the same sentence.

Find a LeBron highlight real, what's the first comment "he's not Jordan", same for Kobe, Magic, Bird, Dr J, whoever. People won't even let a great player be a great player because somehow Jordan has to be on his own stage somewhere, he's the only great everyone else can just be really good.

It's to the point that basketball is now the only sport where athletes have regressed rather than progressed forward. Which goes against all common logic and nature of men, sports, technology, machines, everything. 30 years ago Jordan was better than Big O because "players and the game have developed" 30 years later and no we are going backwards somehow.

Arguments made against other players greatness are reversed to favor MJ, players weaknesses are implied to them but ignored or voided for MJ, he's got his own set of standards.

Like I said, it wasn't always like that. It wasn't that way when he retired. It wasn't that way when he was playing. He's become the folk lore of professional athletes. There was a time when I could say Jordan was my idol, my favorite athlete, celebrity, role model, ever. People and media are slowly ruining that for me now.


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[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I don't think there'll never be another Jordan. Kobe and LeBron are great sure. No disrespect to them (though I've always thought LeBron was full of himself, and still do) but Jordan led a team to 6-0 in the finals. I sincerely believe that if he hadn't retired to baseball they would have went 8-0 in that time period. Just insane. Of course he couldn't do it without Pippen but what did Kobe do without Shaq or Pau. What has LeBron done without Ray Allen or Kyrie. No one can do it by themselves. But I've NEVER seen a dude play with that do or die passion like Jordan did. Kobe played very close to it. LeBron has only very recently had a couple games like it (mainly this past finals).

What gets me is that LeBron played a phenomenal performance in the past finals, indeed. However, people are now saying he's GOAT based off ONE great Finals performance. Have people forgotten LeBron in all the other Finals he's played in. Jordan had and undefeated record of 6-0 in the Finals and was amazing in every single one. I know only Finals performances aren't everything and LeBron is no doubt a phenomenal athlete and top 10 player of all time but I feel like Jordan's name is really getting thrown under the bus.

Yeah, if MJ hadnt retired early Id say he would have probably been 8-0. Still I dont think its ever fair in any team sport to use Championships in a debate about greatness. Been a lot of great players in the 3 major sports to not ever win any rings, that are in the argument as greatest of all time, or greatest at thier position.

Im not a big Lebron fan by any means, but its pretty remarkable he has been to 6 straight NBA finals, and 7 overall in his career. Yes Lebron didnt have a great finals against Dallas, and some felt he quit against the Celtics in that playoff series before he left the Cavs for Miami, even though he still had pretty good numbers in that Celtics series, some forget that, but he did seem to get frustrated their at the end that seem to some as he was quiting on them.

Also need to keep in mind MJ went to college and was more mautre entering the NBA, Lebron came right out of HS, and had already been on SI cover, while still playing in HS. He has had a lot more pressure to be great, than any other player, because of how the media is compared to when guys before him came into the league. Most kid would have crumbled under that scrutiny, so I got to give Lebron a lot of credit for the player he is and has become. Is he GOAT, imo no, but he is in the conversation, and I dont think anyone could deny that.

[Gramps91]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Yeah, if MJ hadnt retired early Id say he would have probably been 8-0. Still I dont think its ever fair in any team sport to use Championships in a debate about greatness. Been a lot of great players in the 3 major sports to not ever win any rings, that are in the argument as greatest of all time, or greatest at thier position.

Im not a big Lebron fan by any means, but its pretty remarkable he has been to 6 straight NBA finals, and 7 overall in his career. Yes Lebron didnt have a great finals against Dallas, and some felt he quit against the Celtics in that playoff series before he left the Cavs for Miami, even though he still had pretty good numbers in that Celtics series, some forget that, but he did seem to get frustrated their at the end that seem to some as he was quiting on them.

Also need to keep in mind MJ went to college and was more mautre entering the NBA, Lebron came right out of HS, and had already been on SI cover, while still playing in HS. He has had a lot more pressure to be great, than any other player, because of how the media is compared to when guys before him came into the league. Most kid would have crumbled under that scrutiny, so I got to give Lebron a lot of credit for the player he is and has become. Is he GOAT, imo no, but he is in the conversation, and I dont think anyone could deny that.

IMO there is no debate for GOAT. Not right now, anyway. Never seen a dude completely dominate the game like Jordan did. Not saying Jordan didn't have weaknesses though.

But WHY!? was LeBron on the cover in high school? What had he done at that point? There are a lot of amazing high school players. It's bothers me he was heralded like that straight out of high school.

Don't get me wrong LeBron does deserve a ton of credit for the player he has become. He's obviously developed tremendously under lots of pressure to become one of the top ten of all time. No question about it. I just don't see how he can be put in the conversation as GOAT when greats like Bird, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Kareem, and Wilt aren't usually either.

It IS impressive that LeBron has been to the last six finals. That's a great accolade. It is weakened a bit though when the East (the conference he's always played in) has been consistently weak since he's been in the league compared to the West. Put the CAVS/HEAT in the West and he'd be in a few Finals sure but not 6 in a row. The East was considerably stronger in Jordan's era.

......and man believe me, I know Championships don't mean everything. Look at Iverson and Karl Malone. Two top twenty players for sure IMO and they never won a championship.

I'm not trying to disrespect LeBron but I don't put him above some of the others I mentioned.

[thenamesfuller]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

IMO there is no debate for GOAT. Not right now, anyway. Never seen a dude completely dominate the game like Jordan did. Not saying Jordan didn't have weaknesses though.

But WHY!? was LeBron on the cover in high school? What had he done at that point? There are a lot of amazing high school players. It's bothers me he was heralded like that straight out of high school.

Don't get me wrong LeBron does deserve a ton of credit for the player he has become. He's obviously developed tremendously under lots of pressure to become one of the top ten of all time. No question about it. I just don't see how he can be put in the conversation as GOAT when greats like Bird, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Kareem, and Wilt aren't usually either.

It IS impressive that LeBron has been to the last six finals. That's a great accolade. It is weakened a bit though when the East (the conference he's always played in) has been consistently weak since he's been in the league compared to the West. Put the CAVS/HEAT in the West and he'd be in a few Finals sure but not 6 in a row. The East was considerably stronger in Jordan's era.

......and man believe me, I know Championships don't mean everything. Look at Iverson and Karl Malone. Two top twenty players for sure IMO and they never won a championship.

I'm not trying to disrespect LeBron but I don't put him above some of the others I mentioned.

You gotta realize it's a whole different ball game though from back then. Players are developing more stronger with just the technology these days.
They can even study plays easier.
Sad though, we can only go head to head with classic and new age players through video games to determine who really is best. But it's still not true, considering rules have changed and whatnot.


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[Gramps91]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

You gotta realize it's a whole different ball game though from back then. Players are developing more stronger with just the technology these days.
They can even study plays easier.
Sad though, we can only go head to head with classic and new age players through video games to determine who really is best. But it's still not true, considering rules have changed and whatnot.


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I agree with you that players tend to be more athletic in today's basketball but I'm not sure it's as competitive or that the Basketball IQ is as high. Look at Larry Bird, dude wasn't very athletic but his basketball IQ was off the charts. That's how he dominated the game so well.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

IMO there is no debate for GOAT. Not right now, anyway. Never seen a dude completely dominate the game like Jordan did. Not saying Jordan didn't have weaknesses though.

It IS impressive that LeBron has been to the last six finals. That's a great accolade. It is weakened a bit though when the East (the conference he's always played in) has been consistently weak since he's been in the league compared to the West. Put the CAVS/HEAT in the West and he'd be in a few Finals sure but not 6 in a row. The East was considerably stronger in Jordan's era.

The thing is, nobody else has be able to dominate the game the way LeBron has either though.

It’s funny how when people mention the two together, compare them in some way, some jump in “they are totally different players, just let LeBron be LeBron and Jordan be Jordan”, but when it is acknowledged that they are different, that they have been essentially just as great in their own separate ways all of a sudden it’s fine to mention them together, it’s fine to call one better than the other, you can make the stake that the way Jordan did it was superior, for whatever reason. I think it’s clear as day that they are very different players, but nobody else (aside from maybe Kareem) has taken over their era as the lone top dog the way they have. The way they have separated themselves and staked their long tenured seat at the top is where there is a comparison to be had.

To illustrate somewhat how LeBron HAS dominated to a Jordan degree, in his own way, there is this. This is something I’ve posted in another thread before, but basically I took the number of times the player has led the entire league for the playoffs in advanced stat categories. Not counting stat categories (for example rebound%, assist%, etc.) but more so just the advanced metrics. For comparison the list also has Kobe, since he’s the guy usually lumped with them. The stats are PER, Offensive Win Shares, Defensive Win Shares, Win Shares, Offensive Box Plus/Minus, Defensive Box Plus/Minus, Box Plus/Minus, Value Over Replacement Player. And again the number is the amount of times they have been ranked first in the entire playoffs. The order goes Jordan-LeBron-Kobe:

PER: 6-4-0
OWS: 7-6-0
DWS: 1-4-0
WS: 7-7-1
OBPM: 7-4-0
DBPM: 0-0-0
BPM: 6-6-0
VORP: 6-8-0

So a total of 40 times has Jordan led the playoffs in those game impact measuring categories. LeBron’s total is 39. Kobe’s is 1. That’s how good those two have been. For comparison with a larger scale, Duncan 12, Shaq 14, Magic 13, Bird 16.

This past year LeBron became the ONLY player to lead both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks. Last year he was the only player to lead both teams in points, rebounds, and assists. And for 5 straight finals now he’s led his own team in points, rebounds, assists. Who else has done that? Sure you can say nobody has dominated the game like Jordan did, playing the way Jordan did. But LeBron has, in his own way, done the same thing because at the end of the day nobody else has been able to do it the way he has either.

PER playoffs:


WS playoffs:


Plus/minus playoffs:


There is a reason he’s deserving of comparison, a reason he gets compared. Look how far ahead those two are, look how they’ve sustained it. There isn’t anyone to compared to them in that regard. As if the regular season numbers, playoff numbers, the MVPs, the awards, as if all that wasn’t enough already. But like I mentioned in my other post about MJ, the discussion won’t ever be allowed to be had. There is always some standard that cannot be met because Jordan is still growing. He’s becoming a myth-like being that cannot be touched. What hope does LeBron or anyone else have when they are going to be graded on that predetermined curve?

[AlexBrady]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

The problem with all those stats mentioned is that they only measure what happens when a player has or is near the ball. Basketball games are won and lost primarily off the ball which renders those stats almost meaningless.
And no player dominated an era like Bill Russell did.

[ojandpizza]

Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

And no player dominated an era like Bill Russell did.

From a winning standpoint, no. And I doubt anyone ever will.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

From a winning standpoint, no. And I doubt anyone ever will.


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Russell's incredible foot quickness brought the NBA into the modern age and proved that defense wins championships. His area of defensive influence was incredible.

[MrDubya]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Last year wasn't even LeBron's best playoff run though. So what exactly is your point about ignoring his other finals? He didn't play well at all against Dallas, being a sidekick isn't his game nor what was best for that team. I believe had D Wade given him the reigns before that happened they win that series, but that's completely off topic...

If you want to say 6-0 in the finals makes Jordan have a better resumè then by all means use that. But a finals record doesn't = better player. I'm not going to even argue for LeBron being better, but using that against him doesn't hold much much ground. Did Jordan make 4 straight finals before retirement, or after? No. LeBron has now made 6 straight. Does that make him better than MJ? No. That's the flip side of the ring argument, something that a team accomplishes won't ever equate to one player being superior to another on the court. Sure legacy can change with hardware, but that's more so a different argument.

If I had to say so I would probably say Jordan is the most competitive athlete I've ever watched. But I don't know that for a fact. I don't know how to read players minds. How can anyone say LeBron doesn't want to win to the degree Jordan did? Because he doesn't take 30 contested shots in a game? That's not his game. It's Jordan, Kobe, Iverson, those are the types to get the "competitive", "will to win", monikers.. What do they all have in common? Exactly. I'm not arguing Jordan was the degree of "ball hog" for lack of a better term the other two were, though he never had to be, that's not my argument. But how can someone say they wanted it more than the likes of Magic, LeBron, Duncan, etc just because their play-style was to take large volumes of shots? Having that opinion is fine obviously, but using it as its a fact to say "well so and so isn't as good because I believe this person wanted it more because I can read minds" is silly.






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The bolded part is the argument I always hear. It's as if Jordan only played in the NBA for 6 seasons. People just completely leave out the fact that Jordan had failures too. His team got swept. He lost to the Pistons in the playoffs multiple times, and he also lost to Orlando in the east semis.


Whenever these two are compared, people conveniently leave out all the years Jordan didn't even get to the finals. LeBron has made it to the finals for over half of his career, and aside from Wade in Miami, he's had less talent around him to do so.

[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

IMO there is no debate for GOAT. Not right now, anyway. Never seen a dude completely dominate the game like Jordan did. Not saying Jordan didn't have weaknesses though.

But WHY!? was LeBron on the cover in high school? What had he done at that point? There are a lot of amazing high school players. It's bothers me he was heralded like that straight out of high school.

Don't get me wrong LeBron does deserve a ton of credit for the player he has become. He's obviously developed tremendously under lots of pressure to become one of the top ten of all time. No question about it. I just don't see how he can be put in the conversation as GOAT when greats like Bird, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Kareem, and Wilt aren't usually either.

It IS impressive that LeBron has been to the last six finals. That's a great accolade. It is weakened a bit though when the East (the conference he's always played in) has been consistently weak since he's been in the league compared to the West. Put the CAVS/HEAT in the West and he'd be in a few Finals sure but not 6 in a row. The East was considerably stronger in Jordan's era.

......and man believe me, I know Championships don't mean everything. Look at Iverson and Karl Malone. Two top twenty players for sure IMO and they never won a championship.

I'm not trying to disrespect LeBron but I don't put him above some of the others I mentioned.

I get what your saying, and by me saying Lebron is in the conversation now as GOAT, I think you can make a case for close to 10 players in the GOAT arguement Personally I dont like throwing every payer into the same categeory, its better to be done by position imo, because when its done the way the vast majority do it, it hurts any player who wasnt ball dominant, and bigs get overlooked.

Whether it was right or not, the media attention Lebron got was something no other player has ever had to deal with at such a young age, so I thinks its only fair to take into account the scrutiny he was under at such a young age. I dont think any of us can imagine the pressure that would come from having that heap onto you, let alone when your still in HS.

Seems every since MJ everyone is looking for the next MJ, personally I wish the media would just let players make their own greatness, and not always compare every one with similiar dominating style to MJ. The thing is Lebron really isnt even the same style player that MJ was, Kobe, yes, there games resembled each other, to where I could see the comparison. Lebron however while yeah he does have that ability to score at will, his style is more like Magic, than MJ, kind of a combo of Magic/Worthy type player.

Its easy to always get caught up on the scoring average, along with having that knack to hit clutch last second shots, along with how many championships a player won. Im technically more of a old school guy, but there is some of the New Metrics that I really like, and I believe show the true value of a player. When we talk about GOAT, everything needs considered, not just how many pts someone scores.

Lebron actually probably the closest thing we have seen to a Magic and the Big O, who are in the arguement as GOAT as well, if you want to truly debate all time greatness. For every arguement for a player, their will always be a negative, wether it be the ERA they played in, the team the player had around him, how good was the competition during their time in league as a whole, as well as in the conference they played. It why we should give all the greats their due for entertaining us in each era, rather than trying to debate what player is the GOAT, cause it is really hard to do it fairly and accurately when trying to compare a player in the 60's to a player now days, and the idiots who argue well great of today are better today because they are etc...., which is BS, as Ive never seen anyone make a good arguement for why today player is just better, whats even funnier is most never saw the older player or players ever play, so that make their arguement useless, and just shows how ignorant they really are in their knowledge of that sport.

[Gramps91]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I get what your saying, and by me saying Lebron is in the conversation now as GOAT, I think you can make a case for close to 10 players in the GOAT arguement Personally I dont like throwing every payer into the same categeory, its better to be done by position imo, because when its done the way the vast majority do it, it hurts any player who wasnt ball dominant, and bigs get overlooked.

Whether it was right or not, the media attention Lebron got was something no other player has ever had to deal with at such a young age, so I thinks its only fair to take into account the scrutiny he was under at such a young age. I dont think any of us can imagine the pressure that would come from having that heap onto you, let alone when your still in HS.

Seems every since MJ everyone is looking for the next MJ, personally I wish the media would just let players make their own greatness, and not always compare every one with similiar dominating style to MJ. The thing is Lebron really isnt even the same style player that MJ was, Kobe, yes, there games resembled each other, to where I could see the comparison. Lebron however while yeah he does have that ability to score at will, his style is more like Magic, than MJ, kind of a combo of Magic/Worthy type player.

Its easy to always get caught up on the scoring average, along with having that knack to hit clutch last second shots, along with how many championships a player won. Im technically more of a old school guy, but there is some of the New Metrics that I really like, and I believe show the true value of a player. When we talk about GOAT, everything needs considered, not just how many pts someone scores.

Lebron actually probably the closest thing we have seen to a Magic and the Big O, who are in the arguement as GOAT as well, if you want to truly debate all time greatness. For every arguement for a player, their will always be a negative, wether it be the ERA they played in, the team the player had around him, how good was the competition during their time in league as a whole, as well as in the conference they played. It why we should give all the greats their due for entertaining us in each era, rather than trying to debate what player is the GOAT, cause it is really hard to do it fairly and accurately when trying to compare a player in the 60's to a player now days, and the idiots who argue well great of today are better today because they are etc...., which is BS, as Ive never seen anyone make a good arguement for why today player is just better, whats even funnier is most never saw the older player or players ever play, so that make their arguement useless, and just shows how ignorant they really are in their knowledge of that sport.

Well said. I especially agree with the part in bold. It's the reason I've always tried to be so critical of LeBron. I didn't see why he deserved so much praise before he did anything at all in the NBA.

[wwharton]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Well said. I especially agree with the part in bold. It's the reason I've always tried to be so critical of LeBron. I didn't see why he deserved so much praise before he did anything at all in the NBA.

Hard to blame the media when fans are doing it too. As happens many times, this thread has turned into a Lebron vs Jordan thread.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Jordan's early years mostly featured him dribbling, faking, and re-faking on the wing in a one on one situation. He still had to learn the total game and Phil Jackson's triangle attack helped him do that. The overall quality of play was a cut above what we see today as well.

LeBron has had better teammates than you would be led to believe. Zydrunas Illgauskas was a top notch center, an All-Star. Shaq still was a championship caliber center and Anthony Parker was a two-way wing man. Mo Williams was an explosive pull-up scorer.
Kyrie Irving is an expert one on one scorer. Tristan Thompson is a serious board-man.