2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

[ProfessaPackMan]

2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

I thought Dipo played well last night. Looked more confident in his shots and was more aggressive than he was in Game 1. Even during moments when Westbrook was on the bench.

Thought the same for Gibson as well. He should be taking Kanter's minutes and Kyle Singler should never see the court either.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

The only downside to not playing Kanter is he is by far their second best shooter, at least consistently. Are they were the worst shooting team in the league this year. But he's such a liability on those high screens and can't cover the ground to defend Houston's shooters. It puts OKC in a difficult position for sure.

[Streets]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

So many people complaining about hot takes can't see they're doing the same.

A lot being said about Harden only being efficient because the refs gift him free throws are conveniently missing that if you take away the intentional foul at the end of the game (when it was over), they have the EXACT same amount. So the FTs should be a wash. In the end one guy blacked out and it rocked his efficiency, and the other had a better TS%. That's a fact. No need to do all these mental gymnastics to make it seem like something else.

All this victimizing Russ for not having a team and people forget he had once played with the second best player in the league. Russ did the same "good Russ bad Russ" stuff then that he is doing now. It did not matter one iota. He often blacked out and refused to defer to Durant. So the question is, if his team were different but his mentality were the same, does it really matter? This is the thing most overlooked when we focus on box scores, officiating and takes. Just watch a game. Any game. Harden transformed as a leader. He was asked by D'Antoni to play PG and the only thing Harden said is "will it help us win?". He went out of his way to connect with his teammates set up workouts and dinners with them and is truly interested in helping them because his ultimate goal is winning. Russ said that in the playoffs his best friend is the basketball. He has no other friends. Truth.

Harden took a team with ZERO All-Stars to the same record that Russ had last year with Durant and Ibaka. That is flat out amazing considering some predicted Houston not to make the playoffs. Unfortunately we are a box score culture. So we get hypnotized by highlights and don't recognize that the three point shot over three guys that goes in is actually a horrible play because the rest of your team is just standing around watching. The psychological aspect of the game is ignored.

I think I'm going to bow out at this point. There is no point in continuing because the Russ narrative is too strong. I would love someone to explain to me how mentally/maturity-wise they can see Harden and Westbook on the same level. There's no way you can without the mental gymnastics and it's tiring to read. Talent-wise there are few better than Russ, but it's hard for me to anoint someone with his mentality the MVP.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

I just want to say, as part of the MVP stuff:

1.) if the reaction is really more geared towards "if I had to choose which to build a winning team around I would pick Harden over Westbrook" there are two other candidates that are easily a better choice than either of them in that regard.

2.) We need to stop acting like Westbrook only get's rebounds when a big boxes out and just stands there and let's him get them. Dude was all over the place all game long last night. Climbing over bigs to get boards, chasing down all the long ones from the other side of the court, he get's rebounds because he busts his *** to get them.

My only gripes.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

How are you going to talk about people dropping hot takes/narratives when you've been doing the same exact thing? Come on Streets, you're better than this.

[Streets]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

How are you going to talk about people dropping hot takes/narratives when you've been doing the same exact thing? Come on Streets, you're better than this.

What did I post that is inaccurate?

Did Russ not black out and shoot his team out the game?

Did Harden not carry his team to the third best record in the league when people thought they'd struggle to make the playoffs?

Did Russ not once play with a stacked team and play the exact same way he does now (and people continue to say teammates are his problem)?

Did they not shoot the same amount of FTs last night?

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong but let me know instead of a blanket "you can do better". Watching these two on the court, I really can't do better. Can you?

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

What did I post that is inaccurate?

Did Russ not black out and shoot his team out the game?

Did Harden not carry his team to the third best record in the league when people thought they'd struggle to make the playoffs?

Did Russ not once play with a stacked team and play the exact same way he does now (and people continue to say teammates are his problem)?

Did they not shoot the same amount of FTs last night?

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong but let me know instead of a blanket "you can do better". Watching these two on the court, I really can't do better. Can you?

You're arguing things that no one in here has even said lol. Why the hell is it April and we're still hearing the "Well back in July, nobody thought we'd have a chance" card? Why are ya'll still on that?

We can go right in that MVP thread and see the takes/narratives flying off. So again, if you're going to accuse others....might want to take a look in the mirror, champ.

We've all acknowledged that he played like **** in the 4th and damn near shot his team out of a W and is the reason why they're down 2-0. Not sure how many times it needs to be said unless you're looking for a specific response....

Harden shot like **** as well but he has the FTs and the fact that they're up 2-0 so people overlook that(rightfully so because...those are the perks of when you're leading a playoff series. Your flaws will get ignored). Meanwhile the rest of his team, especially the bench, played a big part in Houston sparking that comeback and eventually getting the win. Props to them for doing that.

In Game 2, Donovan had Steven Adams, Taj Gibson, and Kanter dropping back off the screen, effectively conceding the open jumper in order to wall off the paint. Harden had an off shooting night, going 7-for-17 from the field, so daring him to shoot made some sense. The problem was the Thunder big men still couldn’t stay in front of Harden, no matter how far off they were playing him. All dropping back did was give him a runway to attack the rim, which is why he wound up going 18-of-20 from the free throw line:

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-oklahoma-city-thunder-houston-rockets-game-2-3b9ea97d31c5

But yeah, ya'll got it though. I'll sit the sidelines on this though.

I'm just waiting for the 2nd round when we start fussing about Golden State being the only team getting away with moving screens again.

[Streets]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

You're arguing things that no one in here has even said lol. Why the hell is it April and we're still hearing the "Well back in July, nobody thought we'd have a chance" card? Why are ya'll still on that?

We can go right in that MVP thread and see the takes/narratives flying off. So again, if you're going to accuse others....might want to take a look in the mirror, champ.

We've all acknowledged that he played like **** in the 4th and damn near shot his team out of a W and is the reason why they're down 2-0. Not sure how many times it needs to be said unless you're looking for a specific response....

Harden shot like **** as well but he has the FTs and the fact that they're up 2-0 so people overlook that(rightfully so because...those are the perks of when you're leading a playoff series. Your flaws will get ignored). Meanwhile the rest of his team, especially the bench, played a big part in Houston sparking that comeback and eventually getting the win. Props to them for doing that.

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-oklahoma-city-thunder-houston-rockets-game-2-3b9ea97d31c5

But yeah, ya'll got it though. I'll sit the sidelines on this though.

I'm just waiting for the 2nd round when we start fussing about Golden State being the only team getting away with moving screens again.

Okay so nothing I said was untrue, just irrelevant to THIS discussion? Fair enough ("Champ" though? Lol). I was talking about the past to illustrate the mindsets of these players (because obviously that's what separates them, not talent) but to keep it simply on game 2...

Again how does Harden "have the free throws" when they shot the same amount. It is comments like those that bug me. Two people with almost the exact same number (except the last 10 seconds desperation foul) but different narratives. The difference isn't the FTs it's that one got blackout drunk in the 4th, took awful shots, never passed, was pulling up off the dribble, shot like 12 in a row (I lost count), and forgot he had a team. I just feel like if people want to choose a hill to die on, FTs aren't it. I never once said Harden was efficient, but he was more efficient and played a much better pace than WB.

I don't understand the point of the quote. I read it as the bigs backed off Harden and dared him to shoot. He did and shot awfully. He adjusted and instead of using the space to pull up, he used it to drive to the rim and draw fouls. That to me sounds like smart basketball and a team unable to stop Harden. I could be wrong about Donovan's (or your) point though.

On the other end, the Rockets could double and triple WB because they knew he wasnt trying to find his teammates in the 4th and would go it alone. There were many times he was playing out of control going 1 on 5. It happened after the Houston bench went on a run, he panicked, and stopped playing with poise.

[JazzMan]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

Pretty stats take a back seat to winning in the playoffs for me.

That's the thing though. The playoffs are about winning. OKC had a great shot to win this game, but RWB shot their way out of it. In this case, his inefficiency (4-18 or whatever it was in the fourth) cost them the game.

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[wwharton]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

So then it comes down to if you think any on OKCs bench is capable of having the similar impact Gordon, Beverly and Lou had with Harden on the bench....because that's a big part of the reason he was allowed to change gears. No, that's not saying Russ teammates are D Leaguers.....but I cant see Christian, Dipo and Jeremi Grant doing that with RWB on the bench....maybe that's where we disagree....

This was discussed a lot in the MVP thread. The summary is that isn't a fair way to look at it. OKC has decided to live or die with a system that lets Russ go HAM and everyone else fit in where they can get in. That will pretty much always result in everyone else looking worse than they probably actually are. The only exception is if you have another star who can go off on their own, and decides to step up when Russ is out. I don't like the idea of punishing an individual for playing in a system more conducive to team success. Putting multiple players in the best position to utilize their talents and minimize their weaknesses, develop skill and confidence throughout the season, etc, etc.

It may be a fact that they have no chance without RWB doing everything but it's also likely a fact because the organization, coach and RWB have made it that way.

And that's not to say they shouldn't have that gameplan. If they think that is the best chance to win, go for it. But when I'm evaluating these two, playing how they play in the systems they're in, one is producing better results for his team than the other... that happened in the regular season and has been magnified even more so far in the playoffs.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

You can't say someone's summary isn't fair and then turn around and do the exact opposite man lolol. Can't use OKC's coaching, game plan, poor roster construction, loss of Durant, etc to give Westbrook and excuse to do what he does but you can say that it's not fair to judge Harden based on his system and personnel to ideally fit into his play style... double standard nah?

And you can't then claim team success is a massive deciding factor and turn around and ignore every other aspect of the team but Harden.

I've been accused of cherry picking during this debate, I believe even by you, but what do you call what you're saying then? Everyone acts as if the entire Houston turn around and success line is because of Harden. He is the only common variable in the team the past 3 years now. Yes individually this is the best he's been decision making wise, but you can't act as if finally getting THE perfect coach and THE perfect cast for their analytical approach plays zero role in the team and his performance. Then turn right around and say the factors around Westbrook are what enables him to do what he does...

[wwharton]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

You can't say someone's summary isn't fair and then turn around and do the exact opposite man lolol. Can't use OKC's coaching, game plan, poor roster construction, loss of Durant, etc to give Westbrook and excuse to do what he does but you can say that it's not fair to judge Harden based on his system and personnel to ideally fit into his play style... double standard nah?

And you can't then claim team success is a massive deciding factor and turn around and ignore every other aspect of the team but Harden.

I've been accused of cherry picking during this debate, I believe even by you, but what do you call what you're saying then? Everyone acts as if the entire Houston turn around and success line is because of Harden. He is the only common variable in the team the past 3 years now. Yes individually this is the best he's been decision making wise, but you can't act as if finally getting THE perfect coach and THE perfect cast for their analytical approach plays zero role in the team and his performance. Then turn right around and say the factors around Westbrook are what enables him to do what he does...

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say or are accusing me of saying.

My analysis is pretty simple. How successful does the performance your star puts out make the team?

Obviously, if we're talking about deserving of MVP, they need to put up MVP worthy stats too... both Harden and Westbrook do, so I don't see the point in dissecting numbers or claiming ones' stats are better than the others, or how one gets certain stats is more legitimate than the other. And, as already mentioned, there are far too many unknowns to determine a winner based on the players around them (since it's hypothetical that those players would perform the same way in different circumstances).

But I didn't say anyone's summary isn't fair. I said the summary of that discussion (speaking from my side of it, obviously) is that it isn't fair to "come down to" if OKC's bench can do what HOU's bench can do. Unless we're voting one of the benches MVP, I stand by that not being a fair way to judge (not to mention 24th says "bench" but names HOU starters, but that's whatever... everyone BUT the players in question is the point).

I also didn't use all that you listed. How can YOU add a bunch of things onto what I said and then claim anything about my point. I didn't mention anything about roster construction or Durant... the two key pieces of YOUR argument. I think both are irrelevant. We're still talking about an individual award.

I'd go back to what you said to me before... based on the way I look at it, Leonard should be the front runner. Like I said then, I don't necessarily disagree with that. I'd give MVP to him before Westbrook.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

Re: Streets

Again how does Harden "have the free throws" when they shot the same amount. It is comments like those that bug me. Two people with almost the exact same number (except the last 10 seconds desperation foul) but different narratives.

Lol what narrative? I haven't said **** about Westbrook's numbers because it didn't impress me since at the end of the day, wins is the ONLY thing that should even matter right now. Flashy numbers/Triple Doubles don't impress me as much when you have nothing to show for it and so far he doesn't.

The difference isn't the FTs it's that one got blackout drunk in the 4th, took awful shots, never passed, was pulling up off the dribble, shot like 12 in a row (I lost count), and forgot he had a team.

Again, this has been acknowledged plenty of times. Not sure how many times it needs to be said but OK...

I just feel like if people want to choose a hill to die on, FTs aren't it. I never once said Harden was efficient, but he was more efficient and played a much better pace than WB.

I've already said the FTs don't bother me because he's not the one out there blowing the whistle and putting him there. What's funny is I was one of the people here defending the tactic while everyone else here hated it because it was "cheap", lol.

But I do know that 7-17 shooting is bad(read: not good)no matter how hard folks want to spin it. Because let's be real, if that was Westbrook, ya'll would just add this to the rest of the collection. I don't need to box score watch like you think people do to know he didn't shoot well. Like I said, thank goodness for that bench coming thru in the 4th.

Thing is I actually agree with your thoughts on the game last night. I just had an issue with you talking about others dropping hottakes and using lazy narratives. I seen that and was like "Really? Really?? Lol

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-oklahoma-city-thunder-houston-rockets-russell-westbrook-game-2-1ecf0a06e62

Hard to disagree with any of this because it's true.

[dubcity]

Re: 2017 Western Conference Playoffs - 1st Round Discussion Thread

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playo...-2-1ecf0a06e62

Hard to disagree with any of this because it's true.

Definitely an evenhanded assesmnent.