10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

[ojandpizza]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

Odd take/stance to take now but ok I guess. 🤷🏾*♂️

I mean I made that side of the argument when it happened, he's just re-affirming it with how he looks now.

[ProfessaPackMan]

10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

What I mean is if he had came out of the gate looking like prime Shaq in the Finals, would you be saying “Damn, after these 3 games, Phoenix definitely messed up not paying him” or would you be like “It’s only been 3 games, he needs to show this over another 82 games plus playoffs to show that he’s worth the money”?

If your answer is the latter, then that’s why I made that comment, because you’re mind really won’t be changing for another 5-6 months anyway.

Using a handful of games to confirm something like this is odd, as opposed to just waiting at least halfway into the season to be like “See, NOW do y’all see why Phoenix was smart to wait?”

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

I mean I made that side of the argument when it happened, he's just re-affirming it with how he looks now.

I mean, you gonna be saying he doesn't deserve the max at the end of the year whether he comes out and lights it up or keeps playing how he currently looks regardless so what's the point?

[ojandpizza]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

What I mean is if he had came out of the gate looking like prime Shaq in the Finals, would you be saying “Damn, after these 3 games, Phoenix definitely messed up not paying him” or would you be like “It’s only been 3 games, he needs to show this over another 82 games plus playoffs to show that he’s worth the money”?

If your answer is the latter, then that’s why I made that comment, because you’re mind really won’t be changing for another 5-6 months anyway.

Using a handful of games to confirm something like this is odd, as opposed to just waiting at least halfway into the season to be like “See, NOW do y’all see why Phoenix was smart to wait?”

I mean, you gonna be saying he doesn't deserve the max at the end of the year whether he comes out and lights it up or keeps playing how he currently looks regardless so what's the point?

I'm basing it on how disinterested he can look at times not just numbers. Like people are wanting them to max a guy who Monty is still having to try and convince to play hard in playoff huddles. It's like sure let's give him all this money with the hopes that being a max player will make him play hard every night. That's where there is a risk, looking back nobody would max Porzingis for how often it just feels like he is standing around being passive. Ayton isn't just standing around all game 30feet away from he rim like that, but to a certain degree it's a similar concern.

Do I think 3 games typically matter, no, but this isn't' a typical situation. You have a young guy with every physical tool in the world who doesn't play engaged and aggressive basketball every night for 3 years now and when he doesn't get the offer he wants he still doesn't come out and try to prove a point? Then yeah I think there is some relevancy because it's not really "just 3 games" it's 3 seasons, and they know he's capable because he has showcased it but just doesn't do it even remotely consistently. And a lot of it really is just effort, the moment they got Chris Paul all they needed from him was energy. He's not providing that even when he's supposed to be showing the world he's worth max money and finally has a reason to be pissed off and play with a chip on his shoulder? Then what do you expect to motivate him? Giving him the money he wants?

His backup 34 year old JaVale McGee on a 1 year/5mil deal plays harder than him.. If he picks it up then I'll change tune, my opinions on that can change as his efforts change. But no 3 games doesn't feel like too small of a sample size to me if it matches everything we've seen the past 3 years.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

I'm basing it on how disinterested he can look at times not just numbers. Like people are wanting them to max a guy who Monty is still having to try and convince to play hard in playoff huddles. It's like sure let's give him all this money with the hopes that being a max player will make him play hard every night. That's where there is a risk, looking back nobody would max Porzingis for how often it just feels like he is standing around being passive. Ayton isn't just standing around all game 30feet away from he rim like that, but to a certain degree it's a similar concern.



Do I think 3 games typically matter, no, but this isn't' a typical situation. You have a young guy with every physical tool in the world who doesn't play engaged and aggressive basketball every night for 3 years now and when he doesn't get the offer he wants he still doesn't come out and try to prove a point? Then yeah I think there is some relevancy because it's not really "just 3 games" it's 3 seasons, and they know he's capable because he has showcased it but just doesn't do it even remotely consistently. And a lot of it really is just effort, the moment they got Chris Paul all they needed from him was energy. He's not providing that even when he's supposed to be showing the world he's worth max money and finally has a reason to be pissed off and play with a chip on his shoulder? Then what do you expect to motivate him? Giving him the money he wants?



His backup 34 year old JaVale McGee on a 1 year/5mil deal plays harder than him.. If he picks it up then I'll change tune, my opinions on that can change as his efforts change. But no 3 games doesn't feel like too small of a sample size to me if it matches everything we've seen the past 3 years.

Spoilering this in case people want to skip over this whole discussion again

Spoiler

A few things:

1. This happens every year and this is a typical situation. How someone plays/looks will always be subjective especially if a part of that is based on body language.

2. I think there should be some room for context/nuance and less hyperbole here in regards to the whole “first 3 years” part. Because from the time he got drafted, it was always known that he was going to be a project(most raw bigs coming into the league are, historically speaking)but by about Year 3, if everything goes according to plan/development, then we would see why Phoenix selected him #1(although with Luka starting out the way he did, there were/are always going to be people that said they still made the wrong pick). I can elaborate more on this but the last thing I want to do is derail this whole thread with more pages of Ayton Game by Game breakdowns over the last 3 years by Pack and OJ.

3.

It's like sure let's give him all this money with the hopes that being a max player will make him play hard every night.

That’s what all teams do anyway, right?

4. MY position is and has always been that unless you’re planning on trading him and getting an upgrade over him or anywhere else on the team, which they’re not because they want to take advantage of the even smaller window they have CP3 there and Booker, before it’s time to talk contract #2 with him and hopefully get his commitment.

We already know what type of offer sheet he’s most likely going to get and you’re(Suns)are going to match it, which is why I said it was silly. Because again, they’re gaining nothing from doing that. And even if they sign him to a max deal and he doesn’t perform up to it, IT DOESNT STOP THEM FROM TRADING HIM IF HES NOT PLAYING UP TO THE DEAL. Max contracts can and have gotten moved.

My fault, I forget when they match contracts in RFA, they’re always 4 year deals since they’re coming from opposing teams so basically they “fortunately” for them, they would only have to possibly pay him for 4 years instead of a full 5. Better hope no other team throws no creative offer sheet at him.

5. Based on what you wrote, do you now see why I said it was odd? Because based on how he’s looked to YOU over the “last 3 years”, there was nothing he could do in the first few games of this season to change your stance anyway. It was always going to take most of the season and playoffs, if they get there, for him to convince you otherwise and believe that Phoenix should pay him.

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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

So what reason is there to max him now other than lots of guys get the max?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

So what reason is there to max him now other than lots of guys get the max?

How about breaking the stigma that you're a **** organization that doesn't take care of it's players for a start.

I can tell you as a fan of a team that STILL to this day has to fight the perceptions of being the team that ran off Michael Jordan and doesn't care about it's players despite Jerry being TOO LOYAL to people it's best to not even let those kind of perceptions even form and if they have, do what you can to eliminate them.

[DieHardYankee26]

10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

Would you have wanted the Bulls to give Wendell Carter Jr 5/177 for the chance to shed that reputation?

[jeebs9]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

Would you have wanted the Bulls to give Wendell Carter Jr 5/177 for the chance to shed that reputation?

Ahhh tough question

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

Would you have wanted the Bulls to give Wendell Carter Jr 5/177 for the chance to shed that reputation?

Why would I give Wendell Carter and his whopping 11 points and 8 rebounds per game while playing in less than 50 games in all but one of his 4 seasons with us missing the playoffs every year of his career that money as opposed to the Suns giving Ayton and his 16 points and 10 rebounds per game and 2 wins away from an NBA championship that money? 2 very different situations there playa.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

So what reason is there to max him now other than lots of guys get the max?

Are you asking me or just in general?

If you’re asking me, then I already answered this question the last time this subject came up a few weeks ago.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

Why would I give Wendell Carter and his whopping 11 points and 8 rebounds per game while playing in less than 50 games in all but one of his 4 seasons with us missing the playoffs every year of his career that money as opposed to the Suns giving Ayton and his 16 points and 10 rebounds per game and 2 wins away from an NBA championship that money? 2 very different situations there playa.

To get rid of the stigma of being an organization that doesn’t take care of its players. But whatever lol, back to the games.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

To get rid of the stigma of being an organization that doesn’t take care of its players. But whatever lol, back to the games.

Yes whatever indeed cause you know that’s a false equivalency. Ayton is a former number 1 pick who just played a big part in getting his team to the finals and Wendell Carter has done nothing on a team that’s been a doormat in the league for years now. Nobody is looking at the Bulls for disloyalty to players not maxing Carter. A championship contender closing the checkbook when time to pay a key piece to the squad? Yeah very different


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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

That question didn’t have anything to do with Ayton, it was more because I don’t think maxing anyone gets rid of that stigma and that’s just a bad reason to give out a max. But I say again, anyway….

[Master Live 013]

Re: 10/19 - 11/1 Games Discussion Thread

A couple of nice passes from Harden for assists.