Ali is too powerful

[Money99]

I should have brought this up in my hands-on blog, but after watching the E3 demonstration showing off Rd4, I felt the need to speak about this:

http://beta.easports.com/

Watch that video and tell me what you see that's odd.
I've seen Tyson vs Ali 3 times now - twice in Vancouver and now in this video.
And I can tell you that all 3 fights the same thing occurs. Can you see it?

Ali never fights an outside game. In all three instances the user controlling Ali went in to close combat with Tyson. The other odd thing about this, which really bugs me, is that in every case Ali comes out on top using this strategy.

Ali was an outside fighter that setup with his long reach and quick jabs. No way on earth would the real Ali engage Tyson in close or beat him consistently with that strategy.

In both fights I witnessed while in Vancouver, Tyson would nail Ali with some hard hooks and uppercuts but only ONCE did I see Ali get staggered. And yet, in this video you see above, Ali staggers and even drops Mike from counter-uppercuts and hooks.

In my opinion it has a lot to do with Ali's stats. His right hand is simply too strong. And maybe Mike's aren't hard enough.

It's just a gripe of mine, but in reality I gotta believe that Tyson would have the upperhand with power in close compared to Ali who's best power shot was the straight-right. Not uppercuts and hooks.

[marq]

Re: Ali is too powerful

Can we edit any of this info? If so, it should be fixable...but I understand your issue. I will have the same problem once I get the game.

[Po Pimp]

Re: Ali is too powerful

Maybe its due to Mike not having a very strong chin (in the game atleast)...

[Money99]

Re: Ali is too powerful

Can we edit any of this info? If so, it should be fixable...but I understand your issue. I will have the same problem once I get the game.

I believe you can.
And I will too.

Looking at that video again, every time Ali counters Tyson he rocks him. If that's the kind of power Ali had then he would have fnished off Frazier in less than 3 rounds in every fight.

He never had that kind of power, while Tyson KO'd a lot of guys when countering with hooks or uppercuts when in tight.

[nickelplaydit]

Re: Ali is too powerful

aye money...you should really look at the thrilla in manilla fight..its the best example with fazier being the tyson in that era..

just from dealing in those wars it shows he can fight from outside but

ali can fight both ways ...thats all im saying

[Darxide]

Re: Ali is too powerful

It appears that Mikes chin is too soft, and Ali's is too hard. Both had stellar chins IRL, I'm curious as to how they're rated respectively in the game. Also, I think counters were given a little too much damage priority in the game. I'm thinking that Ali's likely superior speed stats give him an edge in this department, and that's why he's able to be effective on the inside.

[Po Pimp]

Re: Ali is too powerful

It appears that Mikes chin is too soft, and Ali's is too hard. Both had stellar chins IRL, I'm curious as to how they're rated respectively in the game. Also, I think counters were given a little too much damage priority in the game. I'm thinking that Ali's likely superior speed stats give him an edge in this department, and that's why he's able to be effective on the inside.

I agree with the bolded, with Ali's chin being a bit better than Tyson's. If they were to give Tyson a weakness in this game other than his height and reach, I would give him a lower stamina and heart. Usually when Tyson went down, he didn't get back up. And Tyson had a respiratory issue which is why long fights weren't to his advantage.

[Money99]

Re: Ali is too powerful

aye money...you should really look at the thrilla in manilla fight..its the best example with fazier being the tyson in that era..

just from dealing in those wars it shows he can fight from outside but

ali can fight both ways ...thats all im saying

Frazier was also legally blind in his left eye due to cataracts for that fight. That made things a lot easier for Ali to work inside.

I'm not saying Ali shouldn't be effective at all in close range, but in all three fights I saw between the two, I only saw one occasion where Tyson got the upperhand by stunning Ali with a hook to the head.
In that video I mentioned, Ali rocks Tyson every single time he counterpunches him.
This is the same Tyson that took massive amounts of punishment from Douglas, Lewis, Holyfield and even withstood some horrific shots from Bruno and Razor Ruddock without showing much effect. And yet, Ali, considered one of the weakest hitting heavyweights, is able to rock Tyson again and again in this game.

I believe it's because Ali has transcended to a level amongst boxing fans and developers so that a lot of his attributes are grossly overrated. It's almost like he's achieved a status where if you even say his poop didn't smell like roses you'll be burned in ephigy.

He should not have the sort of power that's conveyed in Rd4. It's the first thing I'll be changing when I get the game myself.

Where Ali should really be strong is in his jab, speed, chin, stamina and heart. He should be damn near impossible to KO. And his ability to stick and move should give everyone fits.
I don't want to face him in this game and worry about getting KO'd in 2 rounds all the time because he hits harder than Foreman or Lewis.

Also, for next year, I hope they have a seperate rating for 'freeze moments' to counter punch. That window of opportunity should depend on your fighters ratings, and your opponents. So if you're facing a very fast fighter, and you're defense is crap, his window to nail you from a counter or miss, will be a lot longer.

[edaddy]

Re: Ali is too powerful

I should have brought this up in my hands-on blog, but after watching the E3 demonstration showing off Rd4, I felt the need to speak about this:

http://beta.easports.com/

Watch that video and tell me what you see that's odd.
I've seen Tyson vs Ali 3 times now - twice in Vancouver and now in this video.
And I can tell you that all 3 fights the same thing occurs. Can you see it?

Ali never fights an outside game. In all three instances the user controlling Ali went in to close combat with Tyson. The other odd thing about this, which really bugs me, is that in every case Ali comes out on top using this strategy.

Ali was an outside fighter that setup with his long reach and quick jabs. No way on earth would the real Ali engage Tyson in close or beat him consistently with that strategy.

In both fights I witnessed while in Vancouver, Tyson would nail Ali with some hard hooks and uppercuts but only ONCE did I see Ali get staggered. And yet, in this video you see above, Ali staggers and even drops Mike from counter-uppercuts and hooks.

In my opinion it has a lot to do with Ali's stats. His right hand is simply too strong. And maybe Mike's aren't hard enough.

It's just a gripe of mine, but in reality I gotta believe that Tyson would have the upperhand with power in close compared to Ali who's best power shot was the straight-right. Not uppercuts and hooks.

Good post and I agree with you man,,I think it all goes back to the jab not being potrayed in the game as something that should keep an inside fighter at bay..There is no pop to any of the jabs and that leads to in fighting and back to a slugfest..I agree no way should Ali be winning the fight based on the strategy shown on that video and there is alos no way Tyson should be staggered with every punch..LOL..Tyson hjad a great chin and most people don't give him credit for that..I just hope sliders can remedy this situation..

[jtdribbles25]

Re: Ali is too powerful

Good post and I agree with you man,,I think it all goes back to the jab not being potrayed in the game as something that should keep an inside fighter at bay..There is no pop to any of the jabs and that leads to in fighting and back to a slugfest..I agree no way should Ali be winning the fight based on the strategy shown on that video and there is alos no way Tyson should be staggered with every punch..LOL..Tyson hjad a great chin and most people don't give him credit for that..I just hope sliders can remedy this situation..

this is the fundamentally wrong thing about this game. I was watching it on g4 and the producer was going on about how effective you would be while using sound strategy, all the while the actions on screen didn't match. Not being able to effectively hold off a fighter with a really stiff jab, creates a situation in which it's just a slugfest on the inside. Every video tends to look like this. Unless the sliders are really in depth, I don't see how we fix this. I can pace myself, and play with house rules, but online, it'll be a shootout.

[JayBee74]

Re: Ali is too powerful

this is the fundamentally wrong thing about this game. I was watching it on g4 and the producer was going on about how effective you would be while using sound strategy, all the while the actions on screen didn't match. Not being able to effectively hold off a fighter with a really stiff jab, creates a situation in which it's just a slugfest on the inside. Every video tends to look like this. Unless the sliders are really in depth, I don't see how we fix this. I can pace myself, and play with house rules, but online, it'll be a shootout.

What house rules? To back up when struck by a jab?
I'm wondering if some of you guys are looking to buy Turbo Foot Speed @ Super Duper Piston Jab powerups. The jab may arguably be the most effective punch in boxing, but it also the weakest. It's one thing to frustrate and setup an opponent with a jab, but it's another thing to stop him in his tracks (although I've stunned the CPU a couple of times with the jab). If your opponent continues to force an inside fight you can push him off, maintain proper space, back off (like Brian Hayes did with Cotto against Hearns), all the while forcing your fight from the outside where you can work with your jab-jab, jab cross combos. In the video how many times did Hearns miss Cotto?

[Complex]

Re: Ali is too powerful

The jab may arguably be the most effective punch in boxing

this man speaks the truth. most greats use the jab effectively

[edaddy]

Re: Ali is too powerful

What house rules? To back up when struck by a jab?
I'm wondering if some of you guys are looking to buy Turbo Foot Speed @ Super Duper Piston Jab powerups. The jab may arguably be the most effective punch in boxing, but it also the weakest. It's one thing to frustrate and setup an opponent with a jab, but it's another thing to stop him in his tracks (although I've stunned the CPU a couple of times with the jab). If your opponent continues to force an inside fight you can push him off, maintain proper space, back off (like Brian Hayes did with Cotto against Hearns), all the while forcing your fight from the outside where you can work with your jab-jab, jab cross combos. In the video how many times did Hearns miss Cotto?

Don't understand this my man..The jab is a basic but important punch in boxing that is used to nuetralize an oppnent and keep him on the outside or set him up for a cross.. i don't think anone wants a Turbo Food Sped or Super Duper Piston Jab powerup..LOL..but a jab should be represented correctly in any attempt @ a sim boxing game...The jabs in this game don't keep opponents at bay and it provides no realisic stun to prevent constant infighting...As far as the jab being the weakest punch in boxing I think you should chck out some tapes of Lewis, Holmes, Joe Louis, or George Foreman..These are examples of boxers who had power jabs that actually stunned and set up knockouts my man...

[Po Pimp]

Re: Ali is too powerful

Don't understand this my man..The jab is a basic but important punch in boxing that is used to nuetralize an oppnent and keep him on the outside or set him up for a cross.. i don't think anone wants a Turbo Food Sped or Super Duper Piston Jab powerup..LOL..but a jab should be represented correctly in any attempt @ a sim boxing game...The jabs in this game don't keep opponents at bay and it provides no realisic stun to prevent constant infighting...As far as the jab being the weakest punch in boxing I think you should chck out some tapes of Lewis, Holmes, Joe Louis, or George Foreman..These are examples of boxers who had power jabs that actually stunned and set up knockouts my man...

You said it right there. The jab SETS UP the more powerful punches. I agree the jab should be a more effective punch, but I also agree with the other guy who said the jab is the WEAKEST punch.

I think the solution to make this game not become a slugfest is to make the punches stronger while depleting more stamina as well. One solid punch will do damage, but won't hurt you. However, it shouldn't take 40 consecutive punches to send a fighter to the mat. I read that someone fought against a non 2nd player controlled opponent and it took like 40 punches before the opponent fell.

Also, I discovered that if you force an opponent to miss, they will get like a 12 point maximum point bonus at the end of the round (just for finishing the round).

[JayBee74]

Re: Ali is too powerful

Don't understand this my man..The jab is a basic but important punch in boxing that is used to nuetralize an oppnent and keep him on the outside or set him up for a cross.. i don't think anone wants a Turbo Food Sped or Super Duper Piston Jab powerup..LOL..but a jab should be represented correctly in any attempt @ a sim boxing game...The jabs in this game don't keep opponents at bay and it provides no realisic stun to prevent constant infighting...As far as the jab being the weakest punch in boxing I think you should chck out some tapes of Lewis, Holmes, Joe Louis, or George Foreman..These are examples of boxers who had power jabs that actually stunned and set up knockouts my man...

Your first couple of sentences echo what I said. Sure Lewis, Holmes, etc. had good strong jabs, but it was still their least powerful punch. Would you rather get hit by a Foreman jab or a Big George Right Cross?