Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

[SHAKYR]

Brizzo says, boxing is like Ali. He's basically saying sim boxing is when a boxer jab and move around the ring, then catch you with a couple of punches then move. He's thinks a slugfest or brawl isn't sim.... I beg to differ! Sim boxing is what you see in real boxing and being able to immulate this in the game. Stamina, punch output...just a realistic boxing experience.

[parker002]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

I wonder if Brizzo thinks sim boxing is jabbing and then getting COUNTERED before you can move around the ring?

These guys just don't get it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - he's not being honest. This game CATERS to the slugfest. It CATERS to the spammer. If he REALLY believed that sim boxing was the opposite of that, he wouldn't have put his name on this game. Period, end of story.

[Jukeman]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

Wow...Just someone else who has no idea what sim gameplay is....Just like when people say "running with Vick all game is not sim its cheese"...It could happen IRL so it is sim, whats isnt sim is Vick not getting tired, defense not commiting and not having any plays that works against it....Throwing 100 punches a round is sim, whats not sim is when that boxer doesnt become extremely fatigue.....

I think people need to look up the defiinition of simulation...

Also there isnt really a such thing as "playing sim" its just a term use because these games has exploits and allow us to perform unnatural abilities...Saying " I play sim" is just saying I dont exploit the game....

There should be a counter attack for everything in the game, Madden diesnt have fair play anymore but did we really need that? We should be able to go for fouth downs anytime we want, what should have been in is momentum...Nuff said...

[parker002]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

Wow...Just someone else who has no idea what sim gameplay is....Just like when people say "running with Vick all game is not sim its cheese"...It could happen IRL so it is sim, whats isnt sim is Vick not getting tired, defense not commiting and not having any plays that works against it....Throwing 100 punches a round is sim, whats not sim is when that boxer doesnt become extremely fatigue.....

I think people need to look up the defiinition of simulation...

Also there isnt really a such thing as "playing sim" its just a term use because these games has exploits and allow us to perform unnatural abilities...Saying " I play sim" is just saying I dont exploit the game....

There should be a counter attack for everything in the game, Madden diesnt have fair play anymore but did we really need that? We should be able to go for fouth downs anytime we want, what should have been in is momentum...Nuff said...

Exactly.

It's not the capability to exploit that makes the game "not sim". It's the fact that there's ZERO consequences for exploiting the game that makes it "not sim".

And yes, you're right. Pidgeon-holing people into one style isn't sim either. Let people play however they want, just make the outcome of their "style" realistic.

[mr_president]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

Wow...Just someone else who has no idea what sim gameplay is....Just like when people say "running with Vick all game is not sim its cheese"...It could happen IRL so it is sim, whats isnt sim is Vick not getting tired, defense not commiting and not having any plays that works against it....Throwing 100 punches a round is sim, whats not sim is when that boxer doesnt become extremely fatigue.....

I think people need to look up the defiinition of simulation...

Also there isnt really a such thing as "playing sim" its just a term use because these games has exploits and allow us to perform unnatural abilities...Saying " I play sim" is just saying I dont exploit the game....

There should be a counter attack for everything in the game, Madden diesnt have fair play anymore but did we really need that? We should be able to go for fouth downs anytime we want, what should have been in is momentum...Nuff said...

Exactly.

It's not the capability to exploit that makes the game "not sim". It's the fact that there's ZERO consequences for exploiting the game that makes it "not sim".

And yes, you're right. Pidgeon-holing people into one style isn't sim either. Let people play however they want, just make the outcome of their "style" realistic.

i agree with both of you and this goes for al sports games

[acts238shaun]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

no consequences, that's what isn't sim. Young Foreman throwing 150 punches a round without getting tired and with virtually the same speed as Ali, not sim because there's no penalty for the punch amount, more accuracy than Ali in his prime and even Young Foreman didn't have GREAT hand speed. Add the failings in the blocking with the near uselessness with the underpowered jab because of timed blocks and it skews the game to a hook/uppercut/haymaker fest. To make the game more sim, they start with the above. how could they do that? Shaykr, pappy, all you guys that have boxed, tell me what you think about this:

1. Fix the blocking

The problem with accuracy isn't that it's too accurate. It's not even that punches are too fast, though there should be a better representation of the difference between Ali and Foreman (more on that). It's that the blocking is messed up all the way around. Head movement on this game (online specifically) faster than blocking high to low or vice versa. That's beyond messed up. It may be this was done intentionally to prevent abuse of the timed block (more on that as well), I don't know, but the blocking to to slow from high to low or low to high. Speed up the the animation going from high to low by 50%, it would take care of this issue.

What about the block spammers? Well, as cheesy as it is that it can even be done, even by the CPU (I have a saved vid of the CPU rapidly block flicking my jabs), the way to fix that is to eliminate the timed block of the jab (and maybe even the cross) and lessen the timed block window by 50% for all other punches, including haymakers only leave the freeze as a little bit of a penalty (more on freeze shortly). I have never boxed and haven't seen a lot of matches (more than the average person I'd guess), but it seems that it's mostly non-straights that are parried (time blocked) in the boxing I have watched. Straights seem mostly to be weaved/dodged.

Increase the 'invisible shield' of blocks by about half as well. Too many glancing blows do more than glancing or near full damage. On top of that many blocked shots, online and off, get tallied as a hit. I like the fact the the game can calculate a landed blow's location. I am impressed that I can see every shot landed by me and against me and where it hit over my legacy. I find it very impressive that in 2017 I can know how many blows struck my nose or ribs. The problem is that too many land and the best defensive tactic I have is blocking my gut and moving my head to avoid a punch instead of trusting my guard to absorb it. I like the idea of block strength, with the last patch I believe that they have that about right, but the area that is blocked should be increased on FNR4.

Something else is what Parker touched on, making blocking an active mechanic of the game for the stances that have a hand or both hands up. It's not a huge thing with me, but it might help.

2. Tweak Stamina

I don't have issues with guys throwing a lot of punches, I really don't. My issue is there is no penalty for doing so. I've seen Lucian Bute throw 50 punches in 30 seconds and I saw Emile Griffin throw about 20 punches in what seemed about 10 second. I have no issue with flurries. My issue is every fighter can dang near flurry the entire fight. Throw in corner points for accuracy/stuns/knockdowns, etc., it rewards throwing an insane amount of punches and allows you to continually perpetuate volume punching. I find offline four or five to be about right for stamina over a two minute round. I can get 600-1000 punches a fight from a fighter with a 100 stamina rating, depending on the weight class and weight of the fighter (200 pounder tires at a slower rate than the 260 pounder it seems). Allow for 20 punch flurries, that's cool, but let there be a penalty for those flurries. The more consecutive punches thrown in a flurry, let it take longer to regen stamina. There has to be balance. I'm just tired of Young Foreman throwing punches like crazy online and not tiring til round six or so, but it doesn't matter by that time because he's ahead on all cards because he threw more punches. Jabs should use the least amount of stamina and haymakers should take even more stamina than they already do.

3. Get rid of freeze and timed block on straights

Here is why:

<img style="visibility:hidden;width:0px;height:0px;" border=0 width=0 height=0 src="http://counters.gigya.com/wildfire/IMP/CXNID=2000002.0NXC/bT*xJmx*PTEyNTI4NzI*NTU*NDImcHQ9MTI1Mjg3MjQ2MDU3Ny ZwPTk1MDcxJmQ9Jmc9MSZvPTg*MWYxZDQyYzY2ZDQ4NGI5NWNi ZmQyYzQ5MTJmNWY*Jm9mPTA=.gif" /><object width="640" height="360"><param name="wmode" value="transparent" valuetype="data" /><param name="movie" value="http://cdn.www.easports.com/static/110.2.0/flash/mdMediaPlugin/mediaplayer.swf?file=http://cdn.content.easports.com/media2/fn4/8924458/972A0001_1_FLV_VIDEO_psB.flv&link=http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/9072729&linkfromdisplay=true&linktarget=_top&image =" valuetype="data" /><embed src="http://cdn.www.easports.com/static/110.2.0/flash/mdMediaPlugin/mediaplayer.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="640" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" flashvars="height=360&width=640&file=http://cdn.content.easports.com/media2/fn4/8924458/972A0001_1_FLV_VIDEO_psB.flv&link=http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/9072729&linkfromdisplay=true&linktarget=_top&image ="></embed></object><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://www.easports.com/" target="_top" shape="rect">EA Sports</a>: <a href="http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/9072729" target="_top" shape="rect">Why I don't play on GOAT & hate timed block freeze</a></div>

I am 50/50 for removing them on normal hooks and uppercuts, but leave them and add a little more of a freeze for haymakers, including when slipped/dodged. Haymaker hooks to the body became the most common punch the first week after the last patch because little stamina was lost throwing them and they were very quickly thrown by power style punchers. If the haymaker is timed, I don't think it should be to the asinine level of FNR4, but you should suffer for throwing it.

I have no problem with a jab/cross getting slipped. Here's a link showing a Joe Walcott KO of someone that looks like Ezzard Charles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4bDdjgVtAc&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch%3Frlz%3D1C1CHMB_enUS330US330%26sourceid%3Dchrome%26q%3DBenn%2520Michael%2520Watson%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26hl%3Den%26&feature=player_embedded#t=92

However, don't make the weave infallible online, because it isn't offline. A good quick jab should nail a guy with slow foot speed and head movement. Not to beat a dead horse, but George Foreman never had Ali's speed in any way. Online, however, he can weave as fast as Ali and do so without being hit. If I throw a jab after the weave starts, it should hit them. If they react to my jab or straight and weave then hey, good move on their part.

4. Make the jab matter

Don't make it overpowered like the Judge Jab on FNR3, but on FNR4 it's the big young Doberman with no teeth: it looks mean, tough and is a beautiful specimen, but you really have nothing to worry about. All bark and no bite. Sonny Liston had a jab that was considered one of the greatest ever by Bert Sugar. Ali, we all know about him. Foreman, my whipping boy lately, nearly KO'd Michael with his jab before doing so with the follow up cross. Both Klitchko brothers have a great jab that is followed by a freight train straight.

[acts238shaun]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

Sorry I cut off my post, the wife wanted the laptop, lol. You guys that boxed and have watched/followed boxing over the years, what do you think of my list?

[SHAKYR]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

I agree with alot of points and ideas you made. I want everything to be a reflection of real boxing that we see in real life, not all boxers throw punches the same way or get tired from the same output of punches.

[JerseySuave4]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

I agree with alot of points and ideas you made. I want everything to be a reflection of real boxing that we see in real life, not all boxers throw punches the same way or get tired from the same output of punches.

bingo, each boxer's stamina attributes should reflect how the person is in real life. Different boxers get more tired when throwing a ton of punches but certain boxers can throw and throw and throw and not get as tired. Paul Williams, Manny Pacquaio throw a lot of punches and dont tire down like crazy.

[acts238shaun]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

With stamina at five and two minute rounds I noticed something. Take the max ratings of each weightclass. 100 stamina = 76 (I think) for heavyweight, 80 is for light heavy, 88 for a middleweight, 90ish for a welter, etc. It seems at a five stamina setting for two minutes that about how many punches you are going to get per round on average from a fighter in those classes. I don't have issues with 100 punches a round from a middleweight, even online. I have issues that they can throw that many and not get tired like they should online. I will toss about 80 punches a round with a welter, but I am also usually down to 1/3rd stamina at the end of a fight - enough for a finishing flurry if I need it. Where I get mad is when someone can take a fighter notorious for not having a great deal of stamina (either Foreman) and can throw 300 punches in two rounds or 600 in four and by the sixth he still isn't very winded and he's throwing punching like crazy with no penalty, mainly because he's landing at least 55% of his punches and getting points that he can put directly on his stamina. That's what drives me nuts online and that's why I haven't played online in over a week.

[tyreeii]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

I agree with you, act238shaun, on many of your points about boxing. Personally, I feel this game should have several apsects.

Boxing is called, "the sweet science" which is the art of hitting and not being hit. I enjoy watching a fighter who can pepper his opponent while making them look foolish (Pernell Whitaker, Maywaether, and pre 2003 RJJ). But I also love an excellent boxing match that perfectly combines two fighter who punch like "donkey kicks" or 2 fighters who are opposites (puncher or slugger or boxer vs counterpuncher/speedster, etc). I have been watching boxing for as long as I can remember [I was born in the mid-late 70s] and I have seen hundreds, maybe thousands of fights. I was raised in Las Vegas and my uncle used to fight.

I know a little bit about boxing and I think this is a great game with a couple of significant flaws (especially online).

1) A fighter should be hurt more when he gets hit flush while pulling back, without blocking or when waeving into the punch.

2) A job/straight to the body should nullify a weave (as it does in real life).

3) The timed blocks should not have the affect they have. When have you ever seen a player stunned because his opponent executed a great block. If anything I great block should sap the punching power of the opponent or have more impact on an opponent's stamina due to the wasted energy.

4) An excellent slip/dodge of a punch should throw the fighter who misses off balance for a split second because that is what happens in real life.

5) A punch should have the most impact when it lands while the opposing fighter is throwing a punch. Most fighters get knocked out or severely hurt by the punches they never see.

6) On a positive note, I love how they slowed the speed of the fighters down over the course of the fight. The happens all of the time in real life (Vasquez-MArquez and JC Chavez-Taylor).

[Complex]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

Boxing is a chess match. I have posted this before, boxing is Hit and Don't get hit. Ring entrances, robes, etc are all part of the personality of boxing but the core is still the same; Hit and Don't be hit. Its using your physical advantages to the best of your ability, its training, its will, its heart.

Fight Night Round 4 is the best boxing offering out, let's make sure that we applaud what we do have. They did correct a lot of issues from previous games. EA took a major leap in the right direction.

But to improve on the game even further, there are a few things that it needs to do. I posted these a long time ago.

1. Additional animations - in WWE there are about 10 different versions of the pile driver. Hulk Hogans, Paul Orndorff, and Marvelous Maracco....all had different versions of he same move. Zab Judah does not jab like, Ike Quartey, Quarter does not jab like Paulie Maliniaggi. Same move, all different.

2. Mannerisms - Bernard rarely takes flush punches, Allan Green always looks down to reset himself before punching. Sweet Pea has a style of ducking and slipping that has never been duplicated. We need all these things.

3. Physical Attributes - Paul Williams reach is longer than Ali's. Judah had power all the way up to 147. There are 6 ft light weights, Ali Funeka is one example.

I made a recommendation for this called 'boxing shells'. Let us download a 6ft lightweight with good speed, good reach but a weak chin. Or...a 5'7 welterweight with great power and less than avg blocking like Judah. This can be accomplished now in FN4.

[acts238shaun]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

5) A punch should have the most impact when it lands while the opposing fighter is throwing a punch. Most fighters get knocked out or severely hurt by the punches they never see.

Like this? I was knocked down while trying to double up on the jab. Dude clocked me and followed up with a jab to knock me down. This was a test fight trying test slider variations. This affirmed the power to toughness ration for me. As much as I hate getting knocked down it was a purty cross-lead combo. By the way, check out the text on the back of the shorts of the guy still standing...fitting.

<img style="visibility:hidden;width:0px;height:0px;" border=0 width=0 height=0 src="http://counters.gigya.com/wildfire/IMP/CXNID=2000002.0NXC/bT*xJmx*PTEyNTI5NjAwMjI2MTAmcHQ9MTI1Mjk2MDAyNzkyMy ZwPTk1MDcxJmQ9Jmc9MSZvPTg*MWYxZDQyYzY2ZDQ4NGI5NWNi ZmQyYzQ5MTJmNWY*Jm9mPTA=.gif" /><object width="640" height="360"><param name="wmode" value="transparent" valuetype="data" /><param name="movie" value="http://cdn.www.easports.com/static/110.2.0/flash/mdMediaPlugin/mediaplayer.swf?file=http://cdn.content.easports.com/media2/fn4/8924458/972A0001_2_FLV_VIDEO_xVU.flv&link=http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/9275719&linkfromdisplay=true&linktarget=_top&image =" valuetype="data" /><embed src="http://cdn.www.easports.com/static/110.2.0/flash/mdMediaPlugin/mediaplayer.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="640" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" flashvars="height=360&width=640&file=http://cdn.content.easports.com/media2/fn4/8924458/972A0001_2_FLV_VIDEO_xVU.flv&link=http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/9275719&linkfromdisplay=true&linktarget=_top&image ="></embed></object><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://www.easports.com/" target="_top" shape="rect">EA Sports</a>: <a href="http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/9275719" target="_top" shape="rect">Two one combo flash knockdown</a></div>

I know one thing...watching videos of Whitaker, Liston, Ali, etc., has ruined me, lol. Seeing how effective a jab can be when used right makes me expect more. I remember Sweet Pea and how he'd land three jabs on JCC Sr's jab and pop out, using angles and defense to make Chavez look bad. Gene Tunney was one of those who'd keep someone at bay with his jab only most of the time. Liston, with his crazy reach for his height, often only needed his jab to hurt someone. If I am not mistaken isn't the first punch taught in boxing training the jab? In FNR4 it's neglected like Kevin Rooney was by Mike Tyson. Just as Tyson met his demise after Rooney, the Fight Night series had better re-introduce an effective jab or it will fall by the wayside.

[acts238shaun]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

I agree 100% Complex.

[tyreeii]

Re: Please give your definition of sim boxing(arcade and spammers need not respond)

Complex, I agree with everything you had to say especially as far as true variations of fighters styles and punching techniques.

I especially like what you mentioned about BHop in that he rarely gets hit flush, he is a master at using angles. Another thing that BHop does that most people miss is he will come at a fighter the exact same way almost everytime but he may throw a hook, that sneaky straight right of his, he may grab them, hit them with his shoulder, etc. The sad thing is BHop was a pure beast back when he fought Echols and Glen Johnson.

Sweet Pea was a master of angles, his dismantling of Buddy McGirt in their 2nd fight was ridiculous. I could go on and on. But I have to eat dinner.