WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

**pk500** · 11-23-2009, 07:50 PM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

The when:

WBA: 1921. The original.
WBC: 1963. Was formed as international regulating body for the sport. Introduced many safety measures, such as standing eight count, shrinking title fights from 15 to 12 rounds.
IBF: 1976 as U.S.-based group. Went international in 1983.
WBO: 1988

The why:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

There's a lot of money to be made in the sport, and a new sanctioning body can siphon some of that cash away from the existing sanctioning bodies. Additional weight classes also create more opportunities for revenue by creating more title fights.

Splinter groups always form to gain a piece of the pie in every combat sport. It's happening in MMA (UFC, Strikeforce, WEC, etc.), and it happened in wrestling (WWF/WWE, ECW, etc.).

Take care,
PK

**aholbert32** · 11-24-2009, 02:00 PM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

Originally posted by pk500

Splinter groups always form to gain a piece of the pie in every combat sport. It's happening in MMA (UFC, Strikeforce, WEC, etc.), and it happened in wrestling (WWF/WWE, ECW, etc.).

Take care,
PK

I dont know if you can compare boxing's sanctioning bodies to MMA/Wrestling's promotions. A boxer has no contractual relationship with a sanctioning body. He can fight for the WBC, IBA, IBF, WBA, NaBF titles if he wants to. The UFC/Strikeforce situation is more like the Top Rank/Golden Boy situation in Boxing. A UFC fighter cant fight in Strikeforce and vice versa. A Top Rank fighter cant fight for Golden Boy.

Another difference is in wrestling and MMA, there is a clear top dog. WWE and the UFC have the most talent by far and are recognized as the brands of both sports. Thats not the case in boxing and a reason why its popularity has dipped. I could ask a boxing fan "Who is the welterweight champ?" and you will get 3-4 different answers. I ask an MMA fan the same question and they say "Georges St. Pierre"

Until the networks and promoters stop recognizing these BS sanctioning bodies and only recognize the linear "Ring mag" champs...this BS will continue.

**pk500** · 11-24-2009, 02:58 PM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

Originally posted by aholbert32

I dont know if you can compare boxing's sanctioning bodies to MMA/Wrestling's promotions. A boxer has no contractual relationship with a sanctioning body. He can fight for the WBC, IBA, IBF, WBA, NaBF titles if he wants to. The UFC/Strikeforce situation is more like the Top Rank/Golden Boy situation in Boxing. A UFC fighter cant fight in Strikeforce and vice versa. A Top Rank fighter cant fight for Golden Boy.

Another difference is in wrestling and MMA, there is a clear top dog. WWE and the UFC have the most talent by far and are recognized as the brands of both sports. Thats not the case in boxing and a reason why its popularity has dipped. I could ask a boxing fan "Who is the welterweight champ?" and you will get 3-4 different answers. I ask an MMA fan the same question and they say "Georges St. Pierre"

Until the networks and promoters stop recognizing these BS sanctioning bodies and only recognize the linear "Ring mag" champs...this BS will continue.

True. But you're also seeing more and more fighters give up their belts and ignore ludicrous bouts with sanctioning body-ordained mandatory challengers to take on legitimate contenders in their weight classes or at catch weights.

Honestly, I don't think Cotto-Pacquiao would have been less popular if the WBO welterweight belt wasn't up for grabs. It still would have been recognized as a fight between two of the four best welterweights in the world, regardless of what the sanctioning bodies said.

Same thing with Pacquiao-Mayweather. The winner won't be recognized as the undisputed welterweight champion of the world by the sanctioning bodies since Pacquiao only has the WBO belt and Mayweather has no welterweight belts. But everyone in the world with half a brain cell will know the winner of that fight is the best welterweight and the top pound-for-pound fighter in the world.

Devices like The Ring Magazine rankings, which are much more realistic than any sanctioning body ranking, and tournaments like the Super 6 also are helping boxing clean up its clouded picture of who reigns supreme in each weight class.

Now, the issue of too many weight classes is ridiculous, and it won't be solved through reduction because there's too much money to be made. But people will gravitate to certain classes when there's a concentration of talent there, such as super middleweight and welterweight now.

Everything has a way of shaking itself out, regardless of what corrupt fools like Jose Sulaiman try to do. I think the power is shifting toward the promoters these days, with guys like Arum, Goosen, Sauerland and De La Hoya putting their egos and differences aside to make the fights the public wants to see since there's so much money to be made.

Take care,
PK

**aholbert32** · 11-24-2009, 03:36 PM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

Originally posted by pk500

True. But you're also seeing more and more fighters give up their belts and ignore ludicrous bouts with sanctioning body-ordained mandatory challengers to take on legitimate contenders in their weight classes or at catch weights.

Honestly, I don't think Cotto-Pacquiao would have been less popular if the WBO welterweight belt wasn't up for grabs. It still would have been recognized as a fight between two of the four best welterweights in the world, regardless of what the sanctioning bodies said.

Same thing with Pacquiao-Mayweather. The winner won't be recognized as the undisputed welterweight champion of the world by the sanctioning bodies since Pacquiao only has the WBO belt and Mayweather has no welterweight belts. But everyone in the world with half a brain cell will know the winner of that fight is the best welterweight and the top pound-for-pound fighter in the world.

Devices like The Ring Magazine rankings, which are much more realistic than any sanctioning body ranking, and tournaments like the Super 6 also are helping boxing clean up its clouded picture of who reigns supreme in each weight class.

Now, the issue of too many weight classes is ridiculous, and it won't be solved through reduction because there's too much money to be made. But people will gravitate to certain classes when there's a concentration of talent there, such as super middleweight and welterweight now.

Everything has a way of shaking itself out, regardless of what corrupt fools like Jose Sulaiman try to do. I think the power is shifting toward the promoters these days, with guys like Arum, Goosen, Sauerland and De La Hoya putting their egos and differences aside to make the fights the public wants to see since there's so much money to be made.

Take care,
PK

Great post. What frustrates me though is it still seems like the promoters dont get it. Take Pac-Cotto. Like you said that fight wasnt about a belt but Arum still advertised it as being for the WBO Welterweight Championship and the WBC Diamond Championship (My friends and I laughed for a good 5 minutes about the Diamond belt) That lends credence that these sanctioning bodies actually matter.

Simplicity is what people want. I'm a combat sports fan in general but I have to admit that I prefer MMA more now and its not about the sport in general. Its that with MMA I can easily identify the basics about the sport. When I tell my friends about MMA....its easy. 6 weight classes. The UFC is top promotion where 80-90% of the great fighters are. Strikeforce and Dream are solid second tier organizations. Simple rules.

I cant do that in Boxing. It took me 10 minutes to explain the welterweight division to casual fans while watching the Pac/Cotto fight.

"Pac is the best fighter in the division but he doesnt own a belt. PBF is in the division too but he owns one belt, Cotto owns a belt, Berto owns a belt....oh and Sugar Shane Mosley has one too. Who's the champ?....ummm...I guess PBF?"

I hate that. What scares me is looking past PBF/Pac and any rematches they may have, I dont see any major fights on the horizon for boxing. Cotto and Mosley are somewhat draws but not huge. Oscar is gone. No top HW is considered a draw. None of the young guys jump out at me as potential big draws. I like Berto, Ortiz, Williams etc but I cant see them headlining a PPV. I'm scared for the future of boxing.

**pk500** · 11-25-2009, 09:53 AM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

A:

That's why I always use The Ring rankings when telling friends about a fight. It's more realistic and a hell of a lot simpler.

Arum is old-school and still puts importance in the sanctioning body belts. But watch the Showtime video that shows Goosen, Sauerland, Ken Hershman (Showtime) and other promoters in the negotiation of the Super 6. The belts were almost an afterthought. Those six promoters wanted to put together a deal where their guys would be compensated and matched fairly in a tournament that would determine the best super middleweight in the world. It was very refreshing.

You're spot-on about the simplicity of MMA. I can't stand the sport -- it just doesn't appeal to me, and I've really tried -- but the simplicity of its structure is golden.

Take care,
PK

**aholbert32** · 11-25-2009, 10:31 AM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

Originally posted by pk500

A:

That's why I always use The Ring rankings when telling friends about a fight. It's more realistic and a hell of a lot simpler.

Arum is old-school and still puts importance in the sanctioning body belts. But watch the Showtime video that shows Goosen, Sauerland, Ken Hershman (Showtime) and other promoters in the negotiation of the Super 6. The belts were almost an afterthought. Those six promoters wanted to put together a deal where their guys would be compensated and matched fairly in a tournament that would determine the best super middleweight in the world. It was very refreshing.

You're spot-on about the simplicity of MMA. I can't stand the sport -- it just doesn't appeal to me, and I've really tried -- but the simplicity of its structure is golden.

Take care,
PK

I love the Ring rankings but they are frustrating as hell sometimes to. For example, when a title is vacant only a fight between the #1 ranked fighter and the #2 or #3 ranked fighter can crown a ring championship. But for some reason, Paul Williams isnt the Jr Middleweight champ because Ring refused to sanction the fight between him and Phillips (the #3 ranked fighter) as a championship fight. Same w/ Chad Dawson in LHW who just beat the #3 guy Glen Johnson.

Oh absolutely loved the Fight Camp 360 videos of them negotiating the deal. No BS posturing which is amazing with 5 promoters in the room. Still the only reason this tournament happened was that there isnt a superstar in the bunch. Abraham, Froch and Kessler are all great fighters but not huge names in the states. Ward and Dirrell are young fighters looking to establish themselves. Taylor is the biggest name among all of them but he is looking for redemption. It was the perfect storm where all 6 fighters needed this tournament.

There is a reason that the last tournament weve had like this was the 2001 Middleweight tourney with Hopkins and Trinidad. That only happened because all 4 fighters were promoted by King.

**Money99** · 11-25-2009, 10:59 AM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

Originally posted by sportyguyfl31

Its the #1 poison in the sport: WBC, IBF, WBA...etc....

Becuase of these wonderful organizations, we have all of these sub weight classes: junior welterweight, supermiddle weight, etc...and multiple "champions" in every weight division.

Too many fighters, holding too many titles, in too many weightclasses.

I'm not old enough to remember pre-sanctioning body boxing with any clarity...heck i began following boxing when I was about 12 years old, and my most vivid memory of watching world title fights on standard, network tv.

The question Ive always had in my mind is WHERE did these dang sanctioning bodies come from, and why???

Hey, don't you dare leave out the 'Super' champions!
The WBA and the WBC will recognize a unified champ as a 'Super' champ. So then they will give the 'regular' champ his own belt.
So you could see a fighter as the WBA Superchamp but there's also a separate WBA champ.
What a joke.

I also echo PK's thoughts regarding the UFC. I've grown to like that sport because one of the best things it has going is a minimum amount of weight divisions and only 1 recognized belt per weight class.
The biggest thing it has going for it is consistently matching up top-rated fighters in their primes.

If the UFC ever becomes a freelance sport such as boxing, it'll fall into the same mess.
You'll have the UFC, WEC, BEC, QWERAADDFC, etc titles all changing hands and they'll probably triple the weight classes so everyone can hold a belt.

Boxing would be so much better without all the pimps running things.

**JayBee74** · 11-27-2009, 01:37 PM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

Give me the old days when they called it World Heavyweight Title, World Lightweight Title, etc., etc. All "Ring Magazine" champions in this excerpt for a Feb 1956 magazine were considered World Champions.
<table border="1" cellpadding="2"><tbody><tr><th style="background: rgb(239, 239, 239) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><center>Heavyweights</center> </th><th style="background: rgb(239, 239, 239) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <center>Light Heavyweights</center> </th><th style="background: rgb(239, 239, 239) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <center>Middleweights</center> </th></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td> Rocky Marciano, Champion

</td><td> Archie Moore, Champion

</td><td> Sugar Ray Robinson, Champion

</td></tr> </tbody></table> <table border="1" cellpadding="2"> <tbody><tr> <th style="background: rgb(239, 239, 239) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <center>Welterweights</center> </th><th style="background: rgb(239, 239, 239) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <center>Lightweights</center> </th><th style="background: rgb(239, 239, 239) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <center>Featherweights</center> </th></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td> Carmen Basilio, Champion

</td><td> Wallace (Bud) Smith, Champion

</td><td> Sandy Saddler, Champion

</td></tr> </tbody></table> <table border="1" cellpadding="2"><tbody><tr> <th style="background: rgb(239, 239, 239) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <center>Bantamweights</center> </th><th style="background: rgb(239, 239, 239) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <center>Flyweights</center> </th></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td> Robert Cohen, Champion

</td><td> Pascual Perez, Champion

</td></tr></tbody></table>

**pk500** · 11-27-2009, 08:20 PM

Re: WHERE Did All Of These Sactioning Bodies Come From??

No doubt, Jay.

Take care,
PK

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