Tyson vs Ali

[Money99]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

I'm a big Tyson-homer but I think Ali wins. The one thing I can't get out of my head was how he did against Tony Tucker.
I still believe Tucker was an incredibly underrated fighter in his day and he'd probably own a belt if he was in his prime right now.

Tucker was very similar to Ali in size and fighting style. And we all know Tucker was no Ali.
Saying that, how much did Tyson improve since that fight? He seemed to get better, stronger and more confident as he rolled along.

So I guess the question is if the Spinks Tyson fought the pre-war Ali, I would go with Ali. But by a close decision.
Post-war, a prime Tyson probably stops him. Ali wasn't the same after that layoff.

It's always an interesting debate. The closest thing to Tyson that Ali encountered was Frazier. But Frazier wasn't as quick, didn't have the same great defense and couldn't punch with both hands like Mike.
At the same time, Tyson never fought someone with Ali's heart, speed or movement.
Would a Roony-trained Tyson fold he found out that Ali wasn't scared of him and would fire back when hurt?

[jjsmitty34]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

While Tyson is strong and fast, Ali is smart and had great movement/hand speed for a Heavyweight.

You only have to look back at the Holyfield fights to see what Ali/Tyson would have been.

Ali would win every time, Tyson just has a style that wouldn't work against him. The last thing you would want to do is come directly at Ali, he would crush him..

[Money99]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

While Tyson is strong and fast, Ali is smart and had great movement/hand speed for a Heavyweight.

You only have to look back at the Holyfield fights to see what Ali/Tyson would have been.

Ali would win every time, Tyson just has a style that wouldn't work against him. The last thing you would want to do is come directly at Ali, he would crush him..

But the Tyson Holyfield fought was a shell of what he once was.
While Tyson does go right at you, he was great at hitting you with angles.
The one thing I loved what he used to do was juke or shift from left and right to dig body shots into the ribs and force his opponent to drop his hands.
Guys would cover up and suddenly, Tyson would juke to his right, and throw a hook that they never saw coming.

Tyson always had great handspeed, but his Barry Sanders-like movements were never spoken about as much.

[ajns]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

After thinking about this for a while, I'd have to answer this way. When I watched Douglas beat Tyson, I must have said a dozen times, "This guy looks like Ali."

Douglas used the jab and 1-2 punching to set Tyson up for that final combo. Even as good as he was that night, Douglas is still not Ali. And for God's sake, don't drag up the long count. Regardless of whether the count was long or not, Douglas could have gotten up 5 seconds before he did. If you saw the fight or tape of it, you could see he was pissed he got caught, but he wasn't out of it.

So, based on all that I take Ali with one caveat. That Tyson was at the beginning of his decline. I believe that was the first fight without Cus or Rooney in camp(I can still see that idiot Aaron Snowell trying to reduce swelling with a rubber bag of ice. No end-swell in the corner at all.) Even though he hadn't lost yet he was already lost. A year or two earlier, you probably have a different outcome. However, I think the outcome is always the same even with a Cus trained Tyson and a pre-war Ali. Ali by decision or late knockout.

[Money99]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

After thinking about this for a while, I'd have to answer this way. When I watched Douglas beat Tyson, I must have said a dozen times, "This guy looks like Ali."

Douglas used the jab and 1-2 punching to set Tyson up for that final combo. Even as good as he was that night, Douglas is still not Ali. And for God's sake, don't drag up the long count. Regardless of whether the count was long or not, Douglas could have gotten up 5 seconds before he did. If you saw the fight or tape of it, you could see he was pissed he got caught, but he wasn't out of it.

So, based on all that I take Ali with one caveat. That Tyson was at the beginning of his decline. I believe that was the first fight without Cus or Rooney in camp(I can still see that idiot Aaron Snowell trying to reduce swelling with a rubber bag of ice. No end-swell in the corner at all.) Even though he hadn't lost yet he was already lost. A year or two earlier, you probably have a different outcome. However, I think the outcome is always the same even with a Cus trained Tyson and a pre-war Ali. Ali by decision or late knockout.

Yeah the Douglas fight was a disaster. Those who were ringside said the rubber bag was actually a condom (while Snowell says it was a medical glove).
Tyson's first fight without Rooney was the first Bruno fight. And even in that bout people commented how different he looked. He wasn't throwing punches in combinations and wasn't moving his as much as he used to. Bruno hit him with a few good shots and everyone was shocked with how 'human' Tyson looked.

Kevin Rooney has said that when he saw Mike come out against Douglas he knew he was out of shape. Rooney would have him spar 12-rounds a day 4 weeks before a fight so he was razor sharp and had the lungs to throw those deadly 4 and sometimes 6 punch combo's. It also gave him the endurance to pull off his peekaboo style and move his head from side-to-side.

I still think a Prime Tyson is beaten by a prime Ali. But it's not by KO. Tyson had a rock-hard chin and good defense. But Tyson would tire in the 2nd-half of a fight. How many KO's did Mike have after the 6th round? Not many.
So unless Mike took him out in the first 6, I think Ali goes on to win via decision.

Speaking of Rooney and Mike, I saw a documentary where Rooney claims that the Tyson that destroyed Spinks was only 50% of what he could be. He said they were working on things in the gym that would blow people's minds.
They had a plan that would have Mike retiring at 25 or 27 and probably beat Marciano's undefeated record.
Rooney still believes that Don King and the Givens women destroyed his career and if they had kept the original Team Tyson together he could have done some amazing things in the sport.
I'm not so sure about that. Mike was pretty crazy and it was all that team could do to keep him under control. I think Mike would have spun out at some point regardless.
But it would have been great to see Mike keep it together for one more fight against a prime Holyfield.
I think that would have been a great fight and I think Mike would have KO'd Evander.

[Mr5000]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

Yeah the Douglas fight was a disaster. Those who were ringside said the rubber bag was actually a condom (while Snowell says it was a medical glove).
Tyson's first fight without Rooney was the first Bruno fight. And even in that bout people commented how different he looked. He wasn't throwing punches in combinations and wasn't moving his as much as he used to. Bruno hit him with a few good shots and everyone was shocked with how 'human' Tyson looked.

Kevin Rooney has said that when he saw Mike come out against Douglas he knew he was out of shape. Rooney would have him spar 12-rounds a day 4 weeks before a fight so he was razor sharp and had the lungs to throw those deadly 4 and sometimes 6 punch combo's. It also gave him the endurance to pull off his peekaboo style and move his head from side-to-side.

I still think a Prime Tyson is beaten by a prime Ali. But it's not by KO. Tyson had a rock-hard chin and good defense. But Tyson would tire in the 2nd-half of a fight. How many KO's did Mike have after the 6th round? Not many.
So unless Mike took him out in the first 6, I think Ali goes on to win via decision.

Speaking of Rooney and Mike, I saw a documentary where Rooney claims that the Tyson that destroyed Spinks was only 50% of what he could be. He said they were working on things in the gym that would blow people's minds.
They had a plan that would have Mike retiring at 25 or 27 and probably beat Marciano's undefeated record.
Rooney still believes that Don King and the Givens women destroyed his career and if they had kept the original Team Tyson together he could have done some amazing things in the sport.
I'm not so sure about that. Mike was pretty crazy and it was all that team could do to keep him under control. I think Mike would have spun out at some point regardless.
But it would have been great to see Mike keep it together for one more fight against a prime Holyfield.
I think that would have been a great fight and I think Mike would have KO'd Evander.

While I don't think that King and the Givens women are what destroyed his career, they were the beginning of the end for the guy. To this day it's the main reason I can't stand Robin Givens.

[ajns]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

Yeah the Douglas fight was a disaster. Those who were ringside said the rubber bag was actually a condom (while Snowell says it was a medical glove).
Tyson's first fight without Rooney was the first Bruno fight. And even in that bout people commented how different he looked. He wasn't throwing punches in combinations and wasn't moving his as much as he used to. Bruno hit him with a few good shots and everyone was shocked with how 'human' Tyson looked.

Kevin Rooney has said that when he saw Mike come out against Douglas he knew he was out of shape. Rooney would have him spar 12-rounds a day 4 weeks before a fight so he was razor sharp and had the lungs to throw those deadly 4 and sometimes 6 punch combo's. It also gave him the endurance to pull off his peekaboo style and move his head from side-to-side.

I still think a Prime Tyson is beaten by a prime Ali. But it's not by KO. Tyson had a rock-hard chin and good defense. But Tyson would tire in the 2nd-half of a fight. How many KO's did Mike have after the 6th round? Not many.
So unless Mike took him out in the first 6, I think Ali goes on to win via decision.

Speaking of Rooney and Mike, I saw a documentary where Rooney claims that the Tyson that destroyed Spinks was only 50% of what he could be. He said they were working on things in the gym that would blow people's minds.
They had a plan that would have Mike retiring at 25 or 27 and probably beat Marciano's undefeated record.
Rooney still believes that Don King and the Givens women destroyed his career and if they had kept the original Team Tyson together he could have done some amazing things in the sport.
I'm not so sure about that. Mike was pretty crazy and it was all that team could do to keep him under control. I think Mike would have spun out at some point regardless.
But it would have been great to see Mike keep it together for one more fight against a prime Holyfield.
I think that would have been a great fight and I think Mike would have KO'd Evander.

I think the real beginning of the end was when Cus passed. Despite Rooney having some character issues, I have always erred on the side of believing his version of things (saw him the other day and I couldn't believe what I saw. Looks like Mike wasn't the only one sprialing out of shape).

I have to agree that absent Cus, Tyson was a ticking time bomb and King and Givens didn't help. BTW, interesting take on King's relationship with his fighters and his influence can be found in HBO's movie about him starring Ving Rhames. I definitely think his flair for the dramatic added fuel to the fire in Tyson's downward spiral.

In the end, it's always hard to compare fighters of different eras. You are stuck trying to compare fights with fighters that link the two, but rarely do you get prime/prime fights to compare. But given Ali's wit and cunning and at times absolute ruthlessness (I just watched a vid of him yelling "What's my name," at Ernie Terrell as he toyed with him trying inflict maximum damage. Truely a sight), I think he prevails one way or another against Tyson. What I wish we could have seen was a prime Tyson's reaction to really being caught in a bad situation (or perhaps that's the point, he never really was). I think I tend to err on Ali's side because we saw what he could do with the chips down while outgunned, and so it is easier to imagine him finding a way against Tyson. Similarly, my impression of Tyson when the chips were down will always be him searching for his mouthpiece in Tokyo.

[adembroski]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

I want to say Tyson, because I think much of the reason Ali is considered the Greatest of All Time is the number of times he told us this.

But, while I don't think Ali was the greatest, I do think he beats Tyson. First off, the mind games; something I firmly believe Tyson would be extremely susceptible too. Secondly, the Foreman strategy (rope-a-dope) would drive Tyson nuts.

Not to mention, Foreman did get in some huge shots in that fight and they hardly phased Ali... Ali can take a punch.

Now, the argument can be made that for all Foreman's power, Tyson was even more powerful. The question is whether the difference between Foreman and Tyson would be the difference in the fight. I don't think so.

I will point out, however... I have heard the argument that circumstances leading up to the Rumble in the Jungle leave the result in question and there are those who believe Ali spent the rest of his career ducking Foreman with the knowledge he couldn't win a second time. I don't know how true any of this is, just throwing it out there for argument's purposes.

[acts238shaun]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

One thing to remember, you generate more power punching up instead of punching straight or down. Tyson was coming up on most of the guys he fought. Foreman was the same height as Ali.

Something else to consider, about my statement about Ali wading into left hooks. Ali was out on his feet when Angelo Dundee bought him time vs. the now deceased Henry Cooper, tearing a stretched seam in Ali's glove. Ali had a penchant for not always training well, even in his prime, while when he was with his Rooney, D' Amato & Co. he was an absolute machine. Like the previous poster said, had he stayed with Rooney this wouldn't have been as difficult discussion.

[Gibbz]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

Coming from a big Tyson fan, Ali would totally mind**** Iron Mike leading up to the fight.

Mike would have a shot at exploding on him early but I really don't think it would be much of a contest if Ali fought a smart fight, grinding him down before finishing him in the later rounds.

[OG_McNabb]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

Coming from a big Tyson fan, Ali would totally mind**** Iron Mike leading up to the fight.

Same here. I can see it "You talk like a punk. Hit like a sissy" etc.....

[Keenan G.]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

Ali would wear him down. Then he would knock him out in one of the later rounds.

[Seymour Scagnetti]

Re: Tyson vs Ali

It's really hard to say because Ali never fought a guy who even came close to having his hand speed. Mike Tyson, in that 3 year period where he dominated, had the fastest speed to power ratio I have ever seen in a HW. Compared to Tyson, Frazier look like he was fighting in slow motion and Frazier always gave Ali loads of trouble.