Boxing Off-Topic

[edaddy]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

I thought it was a great fight - really entertaining and great adjustments on both sides. I watched with the sound off because of family stuff - but after I was irked by the way the media/broadcast opinionated on the fight.

I had Danny Garcia winning rounds 2,4,5 and 7 - possibly a win in a number of swing rounds too. I thought spence controlled the ring with his movment and jabs. I don't disagree that Spence won on points, but some of the 'headlines' were mentioning "dominant win" etc. The broadcast also didn't give Danny credit for a number of punches landed and gave spence credit for shots that were blocked! I was actually impressed with Garcia's defence and he was able to not get hit by spence's left hand all night with a few exceptions.

Another thought I had was this - who would I rather be physically after the fight? ...Garcia! He landed the much harder shots and also to the body as well, you could see spence convulse to get out of the way of rights downstairs later in the fight - he didn't like those! He also landed the harder cleaner shots with regularity over the fight. I know Danny hits hard, so I'm actually really impressed with Spence's chin. I think it was round 8 Garcia hit spence with a flush right cross that had a lot behind it and the slow motion replay made me wonder how Spence didn't get stunned.

All this not to discredit Spence. He was one of my fav fighters a few years ago and I predicted he would become champ and stay unbeaten for about 7 years (I was really high on him) and that prediction is getting close to coming true BUT a big part of that is the time off and scarcity of fights. But back to the point, this post is more to recognize Garcia's talent and to affirm that is was indeed a close fight and that Garcia did more 'damage' imo. He wasn't busy enough, not enough intent behind the jab, but the power game was firmly in his favour. His head movement and ability to get off and get away whilst moving backwards all night was really impressive to me.

I'm glad Spence is an action fighter though, so we get entertaining tilt's like that. With his rangey jab and footwork he really doesn't HAVE to risk as much as he does.

Anyway, all in all it was a GREAT FIGHT

Great post man I agree 100% with Spence he has a way of contorting his defense to avoid shots that makes it look like he is getting hit flush and hurt. But I agree Garcia threw some shots in there that had Spence jumping out the way. Garcias problem is he doesnt let his hands go and to me he stands to straight up when he throws and recoils. Spence is still regressing physically a little bit each fight and I think at some point he has got to move up. He loses too much muscle going down to 147..But he has the heart of a lion and can turn up his punch output quick while controlling the tempo of the fight...Lets hope Crawford vs Spence gets made...

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

No man its actually on point. If you haven't actually been in a ring or seen firsthand the dedication and training it takes to just be serviceable in the ring it's hard to guage . I don't know what your ring experience is but this goes more to the point that Jake Paul has put in time being a fighter he has trained to be a fighter and has had fights if he can do that to Nate that easy its because Nate doesnt have the ring experience or training at this point and you could see the difference immediately between both. Now Jake is a D level boxer at best and the difference was pronounced. Jake is making the mistake of thinking he can compete with real fighters because he knocked out Nate he will be the next in line to get knocked out if he steps above his level. I have true respect for the ring and the science of boxing Ive been in it and around it since I was 7 years old there is a respect earned when you step in the ring and those shots really do long term damage. Ive seen street fighters come in a gym and get stretchered out quick. The art of boxing is real and it's learned. Nate just learned the hard way..

Boxing is a science and it is more than just two men punching each other but I do think some are using this fight to generalize way more than they should.
There are two angles to look at here -- the first is that Nate Robinson had no business being in the ring, the second is that this would have happened to anyone with the experience that Nate had. The latter is objectively false. What happened to Nate had just as much to do with the individual traits of Nate as it did his experience level.

Don't want to make it seem like a bigger disagreement than it is, but I raise an eyebrow when there's a post stating that this fight is evidence of the need to spend years mastering the sport or this will happen when the guy that served to teach this point...only dabbles in boxing at best.

To me the point this fight made is that Nate Robinson, and only Nate Robinson, should probably pursue other interests instead of boxing.

[edaddy]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Boxing is a science and it is more than just two men punching each other but I do think some are using this fight to generalize way more than they should.
There are two angles to look at here -- the first is that Nate Robinson had no business being in the ring, the second is that this would have happened to anyone with the experience that Nate had. The latter is objectively false. What happened to Nate had just as much to do with the individual traits of Nate as it did his experience level.

Don't want to make it seem like a bigger disagreement than it is, but I raise an eyebrow when there's a post stating that this fight is evidence of the need to spend years mastering the sport or this will happen when the guy that served to teach this point...only dabbles in boxing at best.

To me the point this fight made is that Nate Robinson, and only Nate Robinson, should probably pursue other interests instead of boxing.

Your actually making the point. Again I don't know where your getting Jake Paul dabbles in boxing. He has a boxing license and is a pro fighter. He has been training for almost 3 years and has been in 3 fights as well as against sparing with pro boxers. I'm not saying he is a d fighter but he has the intricacies and technique down tot the point where he can easily beat novice amateur's like Nate. There are several things Nate could've done if he had the experience despite his physical traits. Him rushing in head first is a no no and taught the first day of training. He had no balance and no timing. He didn't throw a correct punch and could not control his breathing. All this is what he would've learned just being in real fights and sparring. again I don't know your level of experience in the ring or out of it but anyone who has stepped in the ring knows the difference. Paul knew it Floyd knew it they tried to talk him out of it.
Boxing evens itself out in the ring that's why McGregeor gets knocked out by Floyd why every ex football player who tries the sport eventually gets knocked out...Of course there are exceptions to every rule but boxing aint nothing to play with your in the ring to get rendered unconscious.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Your actually making the point. Again I don't know where your getting Jake Paul dabbles in boxing. He has a boxing license and is a pro fighter. He has been training for almost 3 years and has been in 3 fights as well as against sparing with pro boxers. I'm not saying he is a d fighter but he has the intricacies and technique down tot the point where he can easily beat novice amateur's like Nate. There are several things Nate could've done if he had the experience despite his physical traits. Him rushing in head first is a no no and taught the first day of training. He had no balance and no timing. He didn't throw a correct punch and could not control his breathing. All this is what he would've learned just being in real fights and sparring. again I don't know your level of experience in the ring or out of it but anyone who has stepped in the ring knows the difference. Paul knew it Floyd knew it they tried to talk him out of it.
Boxing evens itself out in the ring that's why McGregeor gets knocked out by Floyd why every ex football player who tries the sport eventually gets knocked out...Of course there are exceptions to every rule but boxing aint nothing to play with your in the ring to get rendered unconscious.

Already spent too much time on this, but the bold is where we disagree. Nate did train and spar. Not with the pedigree of guys Jake trained with but he did have a legit trainer.

I'm not suggesting that experience doesn't matter. In most cases we can replace Nate with any other pro athlete who has never boxed as an amateur or pro and probably feel confident putting money on Jake. No disagreements on that.

What we seemingly disagree on is the nature of the result occurred. Nate was meme'd. This has as much do with Nate as it does his training. He does not have the "DNA" of a fighter. Even going back to his NBA days it wasn't uncommon to see him have tunnel vision and have "dog chasing ball" mindset. Often he was out of control and tried to play hero ball and do too much. Thats who he is. Charging in out of control is not due to lack of training alone.

My initial comment was in response to the other poster who basically made a "yall ain't ready for this" comment that reeked of boxing elitism and implied that a boxer the caliber of Jake Paul would humiliate any pro athlete who steps in the ring with him. Thats what prompted my taking it too far response.

[edaddy]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Already spent too much time on this, but the bold is where we disagree. Nate did train and spar. Not with the pedigree of guys Jake trained with but he did have a legit trainer.

I'm not suggesting that experience doesn't matter. In most cases we can replace Nate with any other pro athlete who has never boxed as an amateur or pro and probably feel confident putting money on Jake. No disagreements on that.

What we seemingly disagree on is the nature of the result occurred. Nate was meme'd. This has as much do with Nate as it does his training. He does not have the "DNA" of a fighter. Even going back to his NBA days it wasn't uncommon to see him have tunnel vision and have "dog chasing ball" mindset. Often he was out of control and tried to play hero ball and do too much. Thats who he is. Charging in out of control is not due to lack of training alone.

My initial comment was in response to the other poster who basically made a "yall ain't ready for this" comment that reeked of boxing elitism and implied that a boxer the caliber of Jake Paul would humiliate any pro athlete who steps in the ring with him. Thats what prompted my taking it too far response.

I guess we going to have to agree to disagree but the whole DNA thing is not what was wrong I don't know what a DNA of a fighter is because fighters have all different traits, but the exact thing you mentioned charging in and out of control is what inexperienced novice fighters do. They rush in with head up and just throw any punches to smother an opponent much like in the streets. To the contrary he is a great athlete but had he trained not just for 4 months AND actually fought in matches witch sparring cant replicate he would have done alot better. Learning to keep hands up chin tucked and stepping into punches while parrying and utilizing head and body swivel is what we were taught the first time I laced up a glove. It didn't sink in until I was involved in actual matches to replicate it. Paul simply timed him and landed a good shot in the sweet spot . But that timing is what he learned by being in actual matches. Paul would beat alot of pro athletes but he wont beat actual fighters at this point in his career. If he does fight Mayweather he w;ll learn real quick that there's levels to this. If Nate fights Paul again and gets good training he will do better simply by the fact he has seen what it takes to be successful in the ring and I guarantee he wont rush in. George Foreman has already offered to train him for a rematch and he basically said his flaws are due to inexperience and can be corrected to a point. But agin we can agree to disagree my man!!..Out

[Money99]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

No man its actually on point. If you haven't actually been in a ring or seen firsthand the dedication and training it takes to just be serviceable in the ring it's hard to guage . I don't know what your ring experience is but this goes more to the point that Jake Paul has put in time being a fighter he has trained to be a fighter and has had fights if he can do that to Nate that easy its because Nate doesnt have the ring experience or training at this point and you could see the difference immediately between both. Now Jake is a D level boxer at best and the difference was pronounced. Jake is making the mistake of thinking he can compete with real fighters because he knocked out Nate he will be the next in line to get knocked out if he steps above his level. I have true respect for the ring and the science of boxing Ive been in it and around it since I was 7 years old there is a respect earned when you step in the ring and those shots really do long term damage. Ive seen street fighters come in a gym and get stretchered out quick. The art of boxing is real and it's learned. Nate just learned the hard way..

Great take edaddy.
Nobody is saying Jake Paul is the next Bridgerweight champ (shamelss plug for the WBC), but he has legit put-in time in the ring.
Nate looked like a guy who's never boxed a day in his life and he was exposed.

I spent a very small amount of time in a boxing gym - about 4 months.
I saw more than one 'street tough' show up and think he was going to KO everyone in that gym.
Most of the time a good trainer would never put a novice in with another novice. Typically the novice will share the ring with an experienced fighter so neither gets hurt and learning can take place.
I saw a tough guy roll in and have tonnes of attitude the first 2 weeks he joined; bragging about the 100+ street fights he had and all the KO's he administered. He'd shadow box in the mirror and do the Ali shuffle, flick out jabs with his hands low and talk about how quick and dangerous he was.
A lot of the full-time fighters there were begging the trainers to get them in the ring with this guy.
Eventually one of the trainers finally had enough and put him in the ring with a 20YO guy who only had 9 months boxing experience.
This Novice told me he had never been in a street fight in his life. He was doing it for fitness but also how to protect himself.
He absolutely destroyed the street fighter in one round.
The street tough came out windmilling and quickly gassed-out after 20s. The Novice went to work and dropped him twice with body shots. He didn't even have to hit him in the head.
And the punk never landed one shot on the kid.
Talk about humbling someone. Everyone in the gym was happy to see this and, big surprise, he never came back.

My initial comment was in response to the other poster who basically made a "yall ain't ready for this" comment that reeked of boxing elitism and implied that a boxer the caliber of Jake Paul would humiliate any pro athlete who steps in the ring with him. Thats what prompted my taking it too far response.

Count me as someone who thinks Jake would humble any pro athlete who spent a mere 1 or 2 months in the gym.
Now, if one of these athletes were to take up boxing and put in as much work as Jake has over the past 2 years, then yes, I'd give them equal chance to beat Paul.

I think what edaddy (and myself) are saying is, the average Joe who spends 2 years training and sparring is far more likely to succeed against a pro athlete who does a short 8-week training camp.
I'd even bet on Jake over a beast like Lebron or even a hockey enforcer like Ryan Reeves.
Unless those two guys have been boxing regularly for 2+ years, I don't think either would stand a chance against someone similar to Jake Paul.

[Money99]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

I guess we going to have to agree to disagree but the whole DNA thing is not what was wrong I don't know what a DNA of a fighter is because fighters have all different traits, but the exact thing you mentioned charging in and out of control is what inexperienced novice fighters do. They rush in with head up and just throw any punches to smother an opponent much like in the streets. To the contrary he is a great athlete but had he trained not just for 4 months AND actually fought in matches witch sparring cant replicate he would have done alot better. Learning to keep hands up chin tucked and stepping into punches while parrying and utilizing head and body swivel is what we were taught the first time I laced up a glove. It didn't sink in until I was involved in actual matches to replicate it. Paul simply timed him and landed a good shot in the sweet spot . But that timing is what he learned by being in actual matches. Paul would beat alot of pro athletes but he wont beat actual fighters at this point in his career. If he does fight Mayweather he w;ll learn real quick that there's levels to this. If Nate fights Paul again and gets good training he will do better simply by the fact he has seen what it takes to be successful in the ring and I guarantee he wont rush in. George Foreman has already offered to train him for a rematch and he basically said his flaws are due to inexperience and can be corrected to a point. But agin we can agree to disagree my man!!..Out

Look at McGregor when he fought Mayweather.
McGregor has an extensive amateur boxing resume, and he learned quickly about those different 'levels' you speak of.
After he was stopped he commented that he was amazed by Mayweather's composure. He never got rattled and stayed in control regardless of the situation.
And McGregor would murder Jake Paul and then put Nate in a coma within the same round.

Nate impressed me with his quick feet. The way he darted at Jake from the opening bell, you could tell it caught Jake by surprise.
The problem was Nate didn't know how to use that advantage. So he'd throw a wild punch then go into the clinch.
Jake bided his time and then timed his rushes to put him to sleep.

As you stated, if Nate was given more time to learn the sport, those quick feet would cause a world of trouble for other greenhorns like Jake.
He could dart in and out, while also juking to his left and right to present more angles and openings.
Nate is clearly the better athlete just like Jake was clearly the better boxer.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

I think what edaddy (and myself) are saying is, the average Joe who spends 2 years training and sparring is far more likely to succeed against a pro athlete who does a short 8-week training camp.

And no one is saying otherwise. Nate didn't get beat, he got humiliated. That is not the expectation. Nate did more than an 8 week training camp btw.
If what you guys are saying is true I should be able to spend hours on youtube watching humiliating boxing debuts right? I mean, if this is the normal performance for a guy in his first fight I should have a near endless supply of embarrassing first fights right? Right?

I'd even bet on Jake over a beast like Lebron or even a hockey enforcer like Ryan Reeves.
Unless those two guys have been boxing regularly for 2+ years, I don't think either would stand a chance against someone similar to Jake Paul.

As. Would. I.
" In most cases we can replace Nate with any other pro athlete who has never boxed as an amateur or pro and probably feel confident putting money on Jake."

[pietasterp]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

I'm reading ~250,000 PPV buys for the Spence-Danny Garcia fight. Which is more than the ~200,000 buys for the Gervonta Davis - Leo Santa Cruz fight, definitely more than the Charlo twins PPV (by probably more than double), but over 100K off from the Spence-Mikey Garcia fight last year.

Which means....what, exactly? I have no idea. For a pandemic era showing, I guess it's good. That roughly equates to $19-Mil at $75/buy, plus gate and whatever else. I don't know what is considered a good enough profit margin to consider a guy a "PPV draw" any more, but if this is any indication, Spence is a reasonable PPV draw and the Charlo's are most definitely not.

Personally, I don't consider any of those guys - or anyone fighting today - to be a PPV draw, but I'm not going to go off on that direction again. The business / health of boxing....I'll spare you guys. I suppose I would have paid for a Crawford-Spence fight before the car crash, but now I'm not so sure. Also, if it happens any later than next year, I think both guys are exiting their prime (Crawford for sure) and it starts to become less compelling at an exponential rate thereafter.

[Money99]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Boxing seems to do more to push fans away than create them.
Just finished watching the Florian Marku vs Jamie Stewart and I'm stunned. Absolutely stunned that it was ruled a draw.
This was a CLEAR CUT 8-0 shutout. Marku even floored Stewart in the 2nd round meaning the ref (who was the only scorer, WTH?) had Stewart winning 5 of the 8 rounds.
Preposterous.
Marku was the aggressor the entire fight, landed FAR more clean powershots and never once looked in danger.
Stewart spent the entire fight on his backfoot and against the ropes. Yes, he did good with counter and he's tough as nails. His story is also very inspirational and I give him major kudo's for his performance.
But this is one of the worst robberies I've seen in a long, long time.

It sounds like the result might be brought to British Boxing federation to get overturned.
And it should.
Why weren't judges used?
But more importantly, there have been so many disputed fights recently (and in history) why hasn't anyone found a way to fix this?
Why not ask 15 judges (either boxing judges or journalists) to score the fight as well.
If there is a dispute, they reveal the scorecareds of these 15 judges and go with that score.
Adalyde Bird wouldn't have had Stewart getting a draw. That's how bad it was.

[sheredia]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Floyd has agreed to box Logan Paul in an exhibition in February lol

come on, floyd...why can't you see you are damaging your legacy by fighting non-professional boxers. no one will remember his 49-0 record (mcgregor should not count since he was not even a pro boxer). so a hall of fame legend's last 3 fights are against a ufc fighter, kickboxer from japan and now a youtuber? even tyson came back against another legit hall of fame fighter, around his age as well. floyd facing someone like de la hoya would have made more sense. smh.

[pietasterp]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Boxing seems to do more to push fans away than create them.
Just finished watching the Florian Marku vs Jamie Stewart and I'm stunned. Absolutely stunned that it was ruled a draw.
This was a CLEAR CUT 8-0 shutout. Marku even floored Stewart in the 2nd round meaning the ref (who was the only scorer, WTH?) had Stewart winning 5 of the 8 rounds.
Preposterous.
Marku was the aggressor the entire fight, landed FAR more clean powershots and never once looked in danger.
Stewart spent the entire fight on his backfoot and against the ropes. Yes, he did good with counter and he's tough as nails. His story is also very inspirational and I give him major kudo's for his performance.
But this is one of the worst robberies I've seen in a long, long time.

It sounds like the result might be brought to British Boxing federation to get overturned.
And it should.
Why weren't judges used?
But more importantly, there have been so many disputed fights recently (and in history) why hasn't anyone found a way to fix this?
Why not ask 15 judges (either boxing judges or journalists) to score the fight as well.
If there is a dispute, they reveal the scorecareds of these 15 judges and go with that score.
Adalyde Bird wouldn't have had Stewart getting a draw. That's how bad it was.

No doubt. The sport has always been shady as hell and crooked as a barrel of snakes going back to its origins, but in its prime, it was able to overcome all of the shortcomings because it could produce conversation-driving fights and fighters like Tyson, Hearns, Leonard, Frazier, Ali, etc. etc. etc. (yes I'm leaving about 100 names off the list).

The problem now is that boxing doesn't have those guys to overcome the irreparably broken racket that is big-time boxing. And even worse, no one cares. I suppose the few of us that love the sport care, but that and a dollar-fifty will get you a soda from the vending machine.

come on, floyd...why can't you see you are damaging your legacy by fighting non-professional boxers. no one will remember his 49-0 record (mcgregor should not count since he was not even a pro boxer). so a hall of fame legend's last 3 fights are against a ufc fighter, kickboxer from japan and now a youtuber? even tyson came back against another legit hall of fame fighter, around his age as well. floyd facing someone like de la hoya would have made more sense. smh.

Mayweather's record had as much to do with careful career management as it did boxing skill (which he undeniably had at Hall of Fame levels). That's why we didn't see Pacquiao-Mayweather in 2007, or any number of other fights at the peak-appropriate times. He's pretty much the prototype of boxing in the 21st century. Works really well for a microscopically small handful of people, and not at all for the entire rest of the sport.

[Money99]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Canelo thoroughly dominated Callum Smith last night.
It wasn't even close. I think one judge had it 117-111 and I'm not sure where they found Smith winning 3 rounds.
I think it would have been generous to give him 2.

It was apparent very early on that Smith couldn't hurt Alvarez. Once Canelo figured that out, it was game over.
Smith also seemed to come to this realization by round 2 and his entire strategy changed from winning to finishing the fight on his feet.
Now and then he'd throw a decent looking 3 punch combo but there was no pop to any of his shots.
Canelo hunted and stalked Smith throughout throwing devastating body punches and cooking his arms and ribs like a ham.

Alvarez seems to have gained strength, size, speed and power as he's moved up in weight. His chin is granite filled as well. And all of this occuring at the age of 30.
I've been critical of Canelo for many reasons over the past few years, but I was impressed with his showing last night.
Saying that, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to properly assess Alvarez without remembering he failed a PED test.
He has never spoken about pushing for sport-wide testing or voluntarily taking part of VADA testing like so many other fighters.
It could be that Canelo is truly one of the best ever and for his sake (and his fans) I hope that's the case.
But until proven otherwise, I can't help but think him being able to gain power, speed and strength as he moved up from 154 to 168 and 175 isn't entirely natural.

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Canelo thoroughly dominated Callum Smith last night.
It wasn't even close. I think one judge had it 117-111 and I'm not sure where they found Smith winning 3 rounds.
I think it would have been generous to give him 2.

It was apparent very early on that Smith couldn't hurt Alvarez. Once Canelo figured that out, it was game over.
Smith also seemed to come to this realization by round 2 and his entire strategy changed from winning to finishing the fight on his feet.
Now and then he'd throw a decent looking 3 punch combo but there was no pop to any of his shots.
Canelo hunted and stalked Smith throughout throwing devastating body punches and cooking his arms and ribs like a ham.

Alvarez seems to have gained strength, size, speed and power as he's moved up in weight. His chin is granite filled as well. And all of this occuring at the age of 30.
I've been critical of Canelo for many reasons over the past few years, but I was impressed with his showing last night.
Saying that, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to properly assess Alvarez without remembering he failed a PED test.
He has never spoken about pushing for sport-wide testing or voluntarily taking part of VADA testing like so many other fighters.
It could be that Canelo is truly one of the best ever and for his sake (and his fans) I hope that's the case.
But until proven otherwise, I can't help but think him being able to gain power, speed and strength as he moved up from 154 to 168 and 175 isn't entirely natural.

Didn’t see the fight but I wonder if this domination of a very good fighter will have him eventually considering Beterbiev? My guess is he’ll stay at 168 for a while.

[Money99]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Didn’t see the fight but I wonder if this domination of a very good fighter will have him eventually considering Beterbiev? My guess is he’ll stay at 168 for a while.

TBH, as much as I want to see that fight (Beterbiev's iron fists vs Alvarez's concrete chin), I don't think Canelo can move up to 175 without rehydration clauses and handle that smoke.

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