Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

[pietasterp]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Serious boxing writers have criticized Ali at numerous points throughout his career for clutching/grabbing and bending the rules. Mark Kram covers the travesty of the second Ali-Frazier fight at length in "Ghosts of Manila".

[ThreeKing]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

And I dont think anyone has turned a blind eye to his domestic violence.

Other than Stephen A. Smith and about 90% of Mayweather fans, yes....you'd be correct.

[The15thunter]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

If what Floyd does is running and engaging in a "conflict of avoidance" then what the heck do you call what Ali did in that fight? Dancing circles around Terrell looking to counter the slower man and practically every single time Terrell manged to cut him off Ali grabbed him. Mayweather does the same damn thing with MUCH LESS FOOTWORK same amount of holding and he's a runner and a coward in your mind. Ali barely through a punch other than a jab in the first 3 rounds. Only when Terrell started to tire did Ali let his hands go which goes back to what I said earlier about that warrior instinct Mayweather lacks. When Ali sensed a wounded man, he soled out for the KO.

So why the double standard? If its not fueled by hate for what Mayweather has done outside the ring then what is it? It's not all boxing related and I just proved that with this post.

not that i'm trying to pick on you, but it's not a double standard because you highlight the crucial difference between the two. even if we agree that ali is running and doing what people accuse mayweather of doing, he seizes the moment when he senses weakness in his opponent and goes for the finish. in the majority of floyd fights, he would not do that, which is where people are finding fault. if you're the self-proclaimed best ever, people want you to beat your opponent, not just win.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

I had to quote this because it was just so funny (bolded emphasis mine). I've never heard anyone say "I like boring things"....

lol, yeah I threw that in there because of things that happened in real life over the past week. Its like my own personal inside joke I guess.

You made a great post and it is something a lot of people overlook. People find his fights boring so they try to portray him as not a "real" boxer. I lost track of the times I've seen running and hugging jokes on my FB feed. You can definitely acknowledge him as a superb or historically good boxer while finding his fights boring. The idea that enjoying his fights is something of a litmus test for boxing fans is ridiculous. I think it is pushback (is that the right word?) for the amount of casual fans that think all boxing fights should be like what we see in the Rocky movies. That is false, but then we go to the opposite extreme and say you are not a real boxing fan if you do find it boring.

I think people watch his fights because they hope to see him lose. When that doesn't happen and he wins in his usual way they complain about not getting their money's worth. It is funny.

A little armchair psychology -- I think the reason Floyd plays the villain is because of his fragile ego. He is very insecure so he makes it appear as if he wants us to boo him. His ego could not handle the booing otherwise. He convinces himself that he is playing a role and we are buying into it.

[Sgt_Carnage]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Other than Stephen A. Smith and about 90% of Mayweather fans, yes....you'd be correct.

That's it,bro........just keep moving those goalposts. Seriously, I love how we're all Mayweather fans or turning a blind eye on domestic violence all because we called you on your bull****.

[Bamtino]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

not that i'm trying to pick on you, but it's not a double standard because you highlight the crucial difference between the two. even if we agree that ali is running and doing what people accuse mayweather of doing, he seizes the moment when he senses weakness in his opponent and goes for the finish. in the majority of floyd fights, he would not do that, which is where people are finding fault. if you're the self-proclaimed best ever, people want you to beat your opponent, not just win.

You're not picking on me man, I appreciate level headed conversation that's why I'm posting.

I completely agree with Mayweather not being "TBE" and ranked up there with warriors of the ring like Ali and SRR. What I disagree with adamantly is that not having that warrior instinct to finish makes you a runner and a coward like all Mayweather haters call him. That was my point with bringing up Ali, in his prime he approached his fights similarly to Mayweather, he just finished differently. All people want to remember Ali for is thrilla and rumble highlights though. It's not right to penalize Mayweather for his body not deteriorating like Ali's so he can have his thrilla.

[lhslancers]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

You're not picking on me man, I appreciate level headed conversation that's why I'm posting.

I completely agree with Mayweather not being "TBE" and ranked up there with warriors of the ring like Ali and SRR. What I disagree with adamantly is that not having that warrior instinct to finish makes you a runner and a coward like all Mayweather haters call him. That was my point with bringing up Ali, in his prime he approached his fights similarly to Mayweather, he just finished differently. All people want to remember Ali for is thrilla and rumble highlights though. It's not right to penalize Mayweather for his body not deteriorating like Ali's so he can have his thrilla.

He finished differently is the point. So did a lot of the ATG fighters. Fight of the Century. :wink:

[pietasterp]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

lol, yeah I threw that in there because of things that happened in real life over the past week. Its like my own personal inside joke I guess.

Hope it was nothing bad...anyway, thanks for injecting a little levity into the thread.

You made a great post and it is something a lot of people overlook. People find his fights boring so they try to portray him as not a "real" boxer. I lost track of the times I've seen running and hugging jokes on my FB feed. You can definitely acknowledge him as a superb or historically good boxer while finding his fights boring. The idea that enjoying his fights is something of a litmus test for boxing fans is ridiculous. I think it is pushback (is that the right word?) for the amount of casual fans that think all boxing fights should be like what we see in the Rocky movies. That is false, but then we go to the opposite extreme and say you are not a real boxing fan if you do find it boring.

I think people watch his fights because they hope to see him lose. When that doesn't happen and he wins in his usual way they complain about not getting their money's worth. It is funny.

A little armchair psychology -- I think the reason Floyd plays the villain is because of his fragile ego. He is very insecure so he makes it appear as if he wants us to boo him. His ego could not handle the booing otherwise. He convinces himself that he is playing a role and we are buying into it.

Agree w/ everything you said; I do think people watch to see Mayweather lose, and he's nothing if not good theater (outside the ring, anyway).

And I also agree that if he had his way, he'd prefer to be loved - after all, no one really wants to be disliked by people in their heart of hearts. But I think I've heard more than one "insider" (whatever that means), including his apparent new #1 fan and our good buddy at the "worldwide leader" Stephen A, say flat-out that he'd rather not be the bad guy and he's developed that whole heel act because he's got a fragile ego/psyche. Who knows, but it certainly seems plausible...

You're not picking on me man, I appreciate level headed conversation that's why I'm posting.

I completely agree with Mayweather not being "TBE" and ranked up there with warriors of the ring like Ali and SRR. What I disagree with adamantly is that not having that warrior instinct to finish makes you a runner and a coward like all Mayweather haters call him. That was my point with bringing up Ali, in his prime he approached his fights similarly to Mayweather, he just finished differently. All people want to remember Ali for is thrilla and rumble highlights though. It's not right to penalize Mayweather for his body not deteriorating like Ali's so he can have his thrilla.

It's good to have some new guys posting here and keeping the debate civil. And I agree that it's a bit selfish of us (okay, me) to penalize guys for not wanting to end up disabled in their old age, but then, there's the whole paradox of liking boxing to begin with: at it's core, it's pretty indefensible. Yet, watching people fight is like a primal human instinct - just watch the crowds gather around any time any fight is taking place anywhere in the world. We like watching people fight. I sort of wish we/I didn't, but when it's at it's best, there's basically nothing else in the world like it.

[The15thunter]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

to be very fair, i am not a floyd fan. i find him to be a loathsome person, and though i sometimes am able to separate the man from the art, in his case they really intertwine so much that i'm unable to.

that being said, he is a tremendous boxer, and one of the all-time greats. where he ranks amongst them is up to you, though i will not accept the premise that he is the best or even in the top five. he is, however, indisputably the best of his generation.

his style is boring to most fans, casual or hardcore. it isn't visually engaging and doesn't really inspire the masses to want to consume more. it's very safe, which i can't knock because i would fight that way if i were a boxer as well. it takes out almost all risk and makes each fight look the same, just with a different opponent placed in the template.

as a business man, he's brilliant. he knows his fights and his style don't lend themselves to popularity and casual viewership, so he created a persona that is far more exciting than his in-ring work. whereas most exciting fighters are fairly bland in interviews (pacquiao, most mexican fighters, etc.), floyd is a tremendous heel promo, and then you get a boring in-ring product. but at that point, he has your money and your eyeballs, he doesn't need to entertain you.

my contention isn't with people saying he's a brilliant fighter; he most certainly is. my contention is with those that think he's somewhere up there with ray robinson, ray leonard, ali, frazier, or joe louis. outside of his record, what claim can he lay to those lofty heights? for those that say it's not his fault that his generation doesn't have the all-timers and the competition as others, that's fine. just as it's not his fault that he is much better than his opponents and doesn't have to grow or challenge himself as a fighter, the argument goes both ways. because he hasn't proven himself in those regards, he also can't lay claim to those levels of greatness.

[kingkilla56]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Other than Stephen A. Smith and about 90% of Mayweather fans, yes....you'd be correct.

Doesnt change the fact that Mayweather beat Manny in every way.


People complain about Mayweather not going for the knockout, not trying to finish off his opponent. Wtf excuse do you have for his opponents not knocking Mayweather out? At what point are they accountable for not beating Mayweather? Do you guys even hear your arguments?

Mayweather is undefeated but it doesnt count because he wins his matches, but he doesnt knockout his opponents? Are you guys purposefully being this dense or is this how you are most of the time?

[The15thunter]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Doesnt change the fact that Mayweather beat Manny in every way.


People complain about Mayweather not going for the knockout, not trying to finish off his opponent. Wtf excuse do you have for his opponents not knocking Mayweather out? At what point are they accountable for not beating Mayweather? Do you guys even hear your arguments?

Mayweather is undefeated but it doesnt count because he wins his matches, but he doesnt knockout his opponents? Are you guys purposefully being this dense or is this how you are most of the time?

if he is the best ever, as he claims to be, doesn't he get judged at a higher standard than everyone else? he can't have it both ways.

[kingkilla56]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

if he is the best ever, as he claims to be, doesn't he get judged at a higher standard than everyone else? he can't have it both ways.

I dont care about his best ever claims. Every boxer thinks they are the best ever. But to discredit his achievements because he doesnt knock everyone out is as ridiculous an argument as there is. There isnt just one path to being great, some refuse to accept it specifically because of who it is more than anything else. Nobody, I repeat nobody in history has been able to solve the Mayweather puzzle. But yeah Mayweather is just another scrub boxer who doesnt win like Tyson and Ali. Ok then.

And yes Threeking he is still a domestic abuser.

[The15thunter]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

I dont care about his best ever claims. Every boxer thinks they are the best ever. But to discredit his achievements because he doesnt knock everyone out is as ridiculous an argument as there is. There isnt just one path to being great, some refuse to accept it specifically because of who it is more than anything else. Nobody, I repeat nobody in history has been able to solve the Mayweather puzzle. But yeah Mayweather is just another scrub boxer who doesnt win like Tyson and Ali. Ok then.

And yes Threeking he is still a domestic abuser.

i don't think anyone can credibly discredit his achievements. he has won every fight, that's not something anyone is disputing. no one has to like it, but that doesn't change the facts.

however, people can look at how he's done it and find fault with it. that's the subjective part of watching sports, we all view things differently. for me, how he's achieved most of his success, while impressive in sheer volume of wins, doesn't lend itself to as much greatness, awe and plaudits as you would normally afford someone with that record and that type of success.

[Bamtino]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

to be very fair, i am not a floyd fan. i find him to be a loathsome person, and though i sometimes am able to separate the man from the art, in his case they really intertwine so much that i'm unable to.

that being said, he is a tremendous boxer, and one of the all-time greats. where he ranks amongst them is up to you, though i will not accept the premise that he is the best or even in the top five. he is, however, indisputably the best of his generation.

his style is boring to most fans, casual or hardcore. it isn't visually engaging and doesn't really inspire the masses to want to consume more. it's very safe, which i can't knock because i would fight that way if i were a boxer as well. it takes out almost all risk and makes each fight look the same, just with a different opponent placed in the template.

as a business man, he's brilliant. he knows his fights and his style don't lend themselves to popularity and casual viewership, so he created a persona that is far more exciting than his in-ring work. whereas most exciting fighters are fairly bland in interviews (pacquiao, most mexican fighters, etc.), floyd is a tremendous heel promo, and then you get a boring in-ring product. but at that point, he has your money and your eyeballs, he doesn't need to entertain you.

my contention isn't with people saying he's a brilliant fighter; he most certainly is. my contention is with those that think he's somewhere up there with ray robinson, ray leonard, ali, frazier, or joe louis. outside of his record, what claim can he lay to those lofty heights? for those that say it's not his fault that his generation doesn't have the all-timers and the competition as others, that's fine. just as it's not his fault that he is much better than his opponents and doesn't have to grow or challenge himself as a fighter, the argument goes both ways. because he hasn't proven himself in those regards, he also can't lay claim to those levels of greatness.

Fair well thought out logical post.

[kingkilla56]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

i don't think anyone can credibly discredit his achievements. he has won every fight, that's not something anyone is disputing. no one has to like it, but that doesn't change the facts.

however, people can look at how he's done it and find fault with it. that's the subjective part of watching sports, we all view things differently. for me, how he's achieved most of his success, while impressive in sheer volume of wins, doesn't lend itself to as much greatness, awe and plaudits as you would normally afford someone with that record and that type of success.

If you say so. Comparing him to boxers of different eras with different skill sets is not something Im really interested in.

But the argument that Floyd didnt knock out enough people to be great is a bad one. If Floyd was a saint in the world's eye like Manny seemingly is, people would be bending over backwards defending him and his "fault" way of winning. That much is obvious to me at this point.