what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

[mr_president]

the reason i ask is because of all of the recent posts.....people say tyson wasn't gr8 because he beat up a bunch of bums, but then go on to say roy jones jr. is gr8,despite the fact he also got fat on bums, and then they turn around and discredit hopkins because he lost to jones back in the early 90's,but out of the 3 he is the only one to beat 2 other fighters, that were also considered to be gr8 fighters of our time and in their prime(dela hoya & trinidad) and he never ducks anybody, as tyson never ducked anyone, his problem(other than women)was he couldn't get that 500lb gorilla off of his back(holyfield),the only fighter to truly beat him, and beat him good....we also dis ruiz, who i think is a bum,but is he gr8??he defended his title,and he won the heavy weight title twice(only 2 people have won it 3 times and thats ali,and holyfield) ....i think in order for a fighter to be defined as gr8 he can't duck,dodge(if ali had ducked frazier or leonard had ducked hearns where would we be) and hide behind the Bull S### of the sport, he should fight anyone at anytime,and i alos believe he has to have another fighter there to define him(a nemisis if you will)...ali had frazier,forman,norton,spinks, sugar ray leonard had hearns,duran,hagler(although he only fought hagler once, hagler was a dynomite fighter), aaron pryor had alexis arguello,barerra has morales,gatti(not a gr8 but a fighter,but he fights gr8 fights) has had micky ward, and anyone else who steps in the ring with him,because he goes to war with anyone......i'm not saying that i am right,it's just my opinion, and i'm lookin for others.....

[Blaxican8504]

Re: what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

huh?

[charles167]

Re: what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

the reason i ask is because of all of the recent posts.....people say tyson wasn't gr8 because he beat up a bunch of bums, but then go on to say roy jones jr. is gr8,despite the fact he also got fat on bums, and then they turn around and discredit hopkins because he lost to jones back in the early 90's,but out of the 3 he is the only one to beat 2 other fighters, that were also considered to be gr8 fighters of our time and in their prime(dela hoya & trinidad) and he never ducks anybody, as tyson never ducked anyone, his problem(other than women)was he couldn't get that 500lb gorilla off of his back(holyfield),the only fighter to truly beat him, and beat him good....we also dis ruiz, who i think is a bum,but is he gr8??he defended his title,and he won the heavy weight title twice(only 2 people have won it 3 times and thats ali,and holyfield) ....i think in order for a fighter to be defined as gr8 he can't duck,dodge(if ali had ducked frazier or leonard had ducked hearns where would we be) and hide behind the Bull S### of the sport, he should fight anyone at anytime,and i alos believe he has to have another fighter there to define him(a nemisis if you will)...ali had frazier,forman,norton,spinks, sugar ray leonard had hearns,duran,hagler(although he only fought hagler once, hagler was a dynomite fighter), aaron pryor had alexis arguello,barerra has morales,gatti(not a gr8 but a fighter,but he fights gr8 fights) has had micky ward, and anyone else who steps in the ring with him,because he goes to war with anyone......i'm not saying that i am right,it's just my opinion, and i'm lookin for others.....

I am lost.

[Yosemite Dan]

Re: what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

Somewhere in that gramattical minefield I think he put Ruiz in the same class as Ali.

[mr_president]

Re: what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

Somewhere in that gramattical minefield I think he put Ruiz in the same class as Ali.

..yeah i made a few grammatical errors in the last post forgive me i was in a rush,and i'll forgive your misspelling of grammatical.


ruiz in the same class as ali,never,not even close......my question is simple,what qualifies a fighter as being great?? i gave examples of gr8 fighters and why people think they are gr8,and fighters who people think suck,but have accomplished certain goals in boxing(ruiz). then i asked if a gr8 fighter needed a nemisis, another fighter to define him as gr8???leonard had hagler and duran and hearns,ali had frazier and forman....and so on.i used ruiz because he won the heavyweight title twice, and only 2 people have won it 3 times(ali,holyfield), so if he wins it again, will he be considered a gr8 fighter(i still think he is a bum),because of the things he accomplished in boxing. so?? what makes a gr8 fighter???is it the goals he accoplished,the fighters he's beaten, or is it both??? i think a fighter needs a nemisis,someone he has gone to war with,someone who is his equal(or better) to help define his career and him as a gr8 champ.

..i hope that clears it up.... any opinions??

[SPTO]

Re: what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

Great fighter=

good footspeed

quick hand/eye coordination

boxing smarts and not just brute strength (this is one of the reasons Foreman retired the first time he had great strength but that was about it. When he came back he had experience that helped him even tho he was clearly out of shape)

being able to take punishment

having a good secondary knockout punch

hand speed (that is being able to hit lots of combinations)

[charles167]

Re: what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

I am not sure what makes a great champion or if there is any criteria...here are
my thoughts...

1. String of title defenses - example B.Hop
2. Take on all challengers - Tyson, Ali, Hagler
3. Styles - Tyson (took heads of opponents for years), Ali (nuff said)

[Yosemite Dan]

Re: what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

Well these days it's hard to define an all time great based on title defenses as there are so many alphabet titles it doesn't mean as much as it did in the past. Take the heavyweight division someone like Ruiz was a 2 time champion but no one has ever considered him the best boxer in the division simply because he held a title started by one of many organizations. Back in Holmes' days there was basically one recognized title which owning that meant you were the heavyweight champion. After Holmes retired it became diluted with the WBC WBA IBF etc...being held by differnt guys to mess things up. I believe Tyson unified the titles then lost to Buster who lost to Evander who lost to Bowe. Then Bowe didn't want to fight Lewis which was a mandatory defense for one of the organizations and it got all messed up again and now you have four different titles held by 4 tomato cans where one isn't even good enough to unify them again.

Speaking just of heavyweights IMO the last great fighter was Holmes as he held the title for many years and took on all comers and only lost when he was over the hill. For me being recognized as the best of your division or divisions (regardless of which title you hold unless it's unified) for a lengthy amount of time and fighting all the top ranked fighters available without losing every 2 years or so like many fighters do today (De La Hoya) defines an all time great fighter. Losing to an average fighter during your prime would lessen thier career in my eyes. That's why to me guys like Tyson and Lewis fall short of that as they didn't hold on to the title long enough and lost to average fighters during thier prime (Buster and McCall) and except for thier relatively brief title runs didn't do much else during thier careers to distinguish themselves.

Competition also helps as most people would consider Frazier better than Holmes because Frazier was fighting in the glory days of the 70's where Holmes was beating up alot of nobodies in the 80's but when you put it side by side Holmes had a more impressive career record wise. Even though Holmes didn't hold a unified title (guys like Mike Weaver held on to the lightly regarded WBA title at the same time) he was always considered the real champion.

It's all subjective anyways as some guys think Tyson was an all time great and Roy Jones was overrated and you could argue forever about it. Being dominant for at least a good portion of your career is the basic criteria at the very least in most people's minds.

[grunt]

Re: what defines a gr8 fighter/champion

the reason i ask is because of all of the recent posts.....people say tyson wasn't gr8 because he beat up a bunch of bums, but then go on to say roy jones jr. is gr8,despite the fact he also got fat on bums, and then they turn around and discredit hopkins because he lost to jones back in the early 90's,but out of the 3 he is the only one to beat 2 other fighters, that were also considered to be gr8 fighters of our time and in their prime(dela hoya & trinidad) and he never ducks anybody, as tyson never ducked anyone, his problem(other than women)was he couldn't get that 500lb gorilla off of his back(holyfield),the only fighter to truly beat him, and beat him good....we also dis ruiz, who i think is a bum,but is he gr8??he defended his title,and he won the heavy weight title twice(only 2 people have won it 3 times and thats ali,and holyfield) ....i think in order for a fighter to be defined as gr8 he can't duck,dodge(if ali had ducked frazier or leonard had ducked hearns where would we be) and hide behind the Bull S### of the sport, he should fight anyone at anytime,and i alos believe he has to have another fighter there to define him(a nemisis if you will)...ali had frazier,forman,norton,spinks, sugar ray leonard had hearns,duran,hagler(although he only fought hagler once, hagler was a dynomite fighter), aaron pryor had alexis arguello,barerra has morales,gatti(not a gr8 but a fighter,but he fights gr8 fights) has had micky ward, and anyone else who steps in the ring with him,because he goes to war with anyone......i'm not saying that i am right,it's just my opinion, and i'm lookin for others.....

I understood your post. A great fighter beat the best in his era. A great fighter doesnt duck other great fighters. The great fighter add something special to the culture of boxing. That being said the greatest fighter in the past 20 years was Pernell (Sweat Pea). We will go long time to see a fighter that was clearly heads and shoulders better than anyone he fought. In his prime not only was he unbeatable but he was unhittable. If that isnt a word that is cool but that what he was.