Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

[oshighwayman]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

if there s sanity left don't ever buff full mount, unless u fix all lag/latency/delay/host disadvantage problems first

blocking one, two or three punches from full mount bottom doesn't do anything, I will get hit by 4th when trying to transition out

[aholbert32]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

No you are missing the point. If you are WAITING for feedback to make decisions on the game, you are neglecting the fact that 99% of gamers will not provide it. So the feedback you do get, 3 months after release, will be severly skewed. This may be the reason for the wildly different experiences people are having with the random changes coming down the pipe.

Nobody feels any obligation to give feedback, so making patch decisions based on external feedback instead of internal testing seems like the wrong choice.

Thats an interesting position and counter to what most of the people on the forum think. If anything, I've seen people complain about how much input the Gcers or the team of testers have versus what the community provides. I hear constant complaining from people here about how the devs dont listen to them and you are suggesting that devs primarily listen to testers instead of waiting for feedback?

Also lets use the correct language. The changes arent "random". Its not like the dev team is throwing **** at the wall hoping it works. They get feed back from the community, testers and GCers and then brainstorm ways to fix it.

[drinklime]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

Thats an interesting position and counter to what most of the people on the forum think. If anything, I've seen people complain about how much input the Gcers or the team of testers have versus what the community provides. I hear constant complaining from people here about how the devs dont listen to them and you are suggesting that devs primarily listen to testers instead of waiting for feedback?

Also lets use the correct language. The changes arent "random". Its not like the dev team is throwing **** at the wall hoping it works. They get feed back from the community, testers and GCers and then brainstorm ways to fix it.

Well isn't that the point of the surveys? To sample more of the customers? But it seems most of the patch changes come from forums instead. That is my point.

As X-skadefryd-X pointed out, EA UFC 2 sold about 1,000,000 copies. Let's generously assume that there are 500 active forum members contributing legitimate & well-reasoned feedback.

500/1,000,000 = 0.0005
0.0005 * 100 = 0.05 %

That equates to one-twentieth of one-percent of EA UFC 2 consumers making decisions that determine the patch changes coming down the pipe. Statistically speaking those people on the forum, however varied their opinions may be, will never represent the true feelings of the actual customer base.

[aholbert32]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

Well isn't that the point of the surveys? To sample more of the customers? But it seems most of the patch changes come from forums instead. That is my point.

As X-skadefryd-X pointed out, EA UFC 2 sold about 1,000,000 copies. Let's generously assume that there are 500 active forum members contributing legitimate & well-reasoned feedback.

500/1,000,000 = 0.0005
0.0005 * 100 = 0.05 %

That equates to one-twentieth of one-percent of EA UFC 2 consumers making decisions that determine the patch changes coming down the pipe. Statistically speaking those people on the forum, however varied their opinions may be, will never represent the true feelings of the actual customer base.

But neither will the testers or the dev team. Lets say the QA team is 30 people. Do you want those 30 people being the primary source of suggested changes for the game?

Surveys are great for big picture planning like which modes to add to a future game but for specific changes to the thats less helpful. Take me for example, I play primarily offline so most of the spam and cheese issues I dont see because the AI doesnt cheese. So if you send me a survey and ask me "Is the clinch overpowered", my answer will be "From my experience, no". Thats the wrong answer and now I've skewed the survey results to make it seem that the clinch isnt a problem.

The dev team isnt dumb. They dont just add patch something just because someone in the forum or a GCer complains about it. I'll give you an example that happened without giving any specifics:

GCer #1 complained about an aspect of the game and said that it was pretty much broken. GCer #2 thought that was a bit of an exaggeration and doesnt think the aspect was broken. The dev tested that aspect of the game and determined that GCer #1 was right. Then he talked through a potential fix with the dev team and the Gcers.

Finally every sports game use forums and social media to discover potential issues with the game and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you give more attention to the complaints/issues that are well explained and thought through. Thats what the UFC dev team does.

[drinklime]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

But neither will the testers or the dev team. Lets say the QA team is 30 people. Do you want those 30 people being the primary source of suggested changes for the game?

Surveys are great for big picture planning like which modes to add to a future game but for specific changes to the thats less helpful. Take me for example, I play primarily offline so most of the spam and cheese issues I dont see because the AI doesnt cheese. So if you send me a survey and ask me "Is the clinch overpowered", my answer will be "From my experience, no". Thats the wrong answer and now I've skewed the survey results to make it seem that the clinch isnt a problem.

The dev team isnt dumb. They dont just add patch something just because someone in the forum or a GCer complains about it. I'll give you an example that happened without giving any specifics:

GCer #1 complained about an aspect of the game and said that it was pretty much broken. GCer #2 thought that was a bit of an exaggeration and doesnt think the aspect was broken. The dev tested that aspect of the game and determined that GCer #1 was right. Then he talked through a potential fix with the dev team and the Gcers.

Finally every sports game use forums and social media to discover potential issues with the game and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you give more attention to the complaints/issues that are well explained and thought through. Thats what the UFC dev team does.

Exactly. That is why publishers should avoid updates after release, and instead focus on a release date that allows them to wrap up these issues before release to the public. The game should not be changing significantly after release, except for things like these new event modes and bugs, etc. Unfortunately since UFC 1 the pattern has been, release as quick as possible, see what gets the most complaints, then patch patch patch. As you have mentioned previously EA UFC 1 didn't even have a sprawl position. Then 4 months after release they change the whole combo system. EA UFC 2 was the same. The beta, as I understand, was not close to a releasable state, and it was up to you 9 gentlemen to do your best to "clean up the mess" with your GameChanges. They did not give you anywhere close to the time you needed to catch everything.

[aholbert32]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

You missed one important point:
To give you the most useful and correct feedback, we need to know HOW to play, but for that we need to KNOW the internal mechanics and rules inside the game... But b/c of tutorial and info lack we can not to do our feedback in _its most helpful form_ for you.
Here are some whitespaces/questions:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=118

Give us more info => and we will give you more _helpful and correct_ feedback and suggestions.
This is the only cause why your EA testers/QA team has and advantage over us users, but it seems they still need our help. We want to help, even b/c we want the game of our dream (which will also increase the game sales - i.e. EA wish).

The difference is those QA guys are under a non-disclosure agreement and the members of this forum arent. So there is only so much that devs can tell you guys.

[aholbert32]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

Exactly. That is why publishers should avoid updates after release, and instead focus on a release date that allows them to wrap up these issues before release to the public. The game should not be changing significantly after release, except for things like these new event modes and bugs, etc. Unfortunately since UFC 1 the pattern has been, release as quick as possible, see what gets the most complaints, then patch patch patch. As you have mentioned previously EA UFC 1 didn't even have a sprawl position. Then 4 months after release they change the whole combo system. EA UFC 2 was the same. The beta, as I understand, was not close to a releasable state, and it was up to you 9 gentlemen to do your best to "clean up the mess" with your GameChanges. They did not give you anywhere close to the time you needed to catch everything.

Thats nice in theory but not in practice. One, most sports games have release dates built into their contracts so they have to release by a certain date. Two, even if this game was released in June, game mechanics like the combo multiplier wouldve still remained in the game. Three, the Gcers only interacted with the game for 6 days so even if we were given two more trips there, we wouldve still missed a ton of issues.

Finally, the game was released in a "releasable state." UFC 2 isnt UFC 1. There are still a ton of things that should be changed about the game but UFC 2 wasnt missing huge features or significant mechanics (like a sprawl) at release. There are a bunch of things people are unhappy with but they wouldve likely been unhappy with them even if the game was released 6 mos later.

[Evil97]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

If someone is going for an arm trap, just watch them do it and then hit them. I rarely just mash the buttons. I understand the window is huge and it doesn't require much timing, but that is the reason to really mess with the timing all the more.

[Boiler569]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

Personally I feel like Mount is perfect right now (in a balance sense)

If i get someone in mount, I can do some great damage. But if they are good/patient, they can usually escape before they die lol

I like how arm traps work --- I just think they need to NOT drain so much stamina from the guy in top mount. You can have like 75%+ stamina; get arm trapped; and are down to like 10% or less --- a little over the top

arm trap in half guard postured mount seems OP to me. Seems like people are more easily able to 'spam' arm trap attempts in half guard compared to mount. Not sure if this is just my imagination, or if it's a game mechanic...if it is a game mechanic, is it on purpose? To make half guard less powerful?

[Zero101010]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

Have the devs ever gave a full explanation as to why they decided to use a combo multiplier?

[SwedishTouch76]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

I can honestly say I've never once arm trapped or hip bumped. How do you hip bump again? Ppl do it constantly when I have them mounted.

[SUGATA]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

What is it (named) "Hip bumb"?

[MaccaC]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

Does nothing? Absolutely nothing?

So you're saying if you only throw with your right hand, EVER, you'll get arm trapped just as often as if you mix it up?

The arm trap is perfect as it is, I've played so much of this game and the arm trap might be one of the best differentiators between the decent players and the really good players.

People need to learn to be patient with their top position strikes.

[Bigg Cee]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

The arm trap is perfect as it is, I've played so much of this game and the arm trap might be one of the best differentiators between the decent players and the really good players.

People need to learn to be patient with their top position strikes.

LOL!

You are a funny guy my friend. It's not perfect at all.

[fishingtime]

Re: Does COMBO multiplier work in Clinch/Ground?

I haven't posted in a while because these forums have become too much like the EA ones (unconstructive), but felt like I really wanted to comment on this topic.

Good to hear no combo multiplier on the ground, or in the clinch. However, the heart of the conversation has turned to the arm trap. There are "easy" fixes for this in my opinion. (There are no easy fixes.)

First, as a player find ways around it. Non-postured elbows in mount still do good damage like the first game. Try to use those more. They can only hold you here, but you can still strike them. Postured down hooks to the body from full guard also do a lot of damage. Postured down striking still does damage, and is safer. Look at a real fight. How often do you see postured up strikes as opposed to postured down strikes? You see postured down strikes way more often. Usually they only posture up for a strike or two most times. Usually an elbow. However, they posture right back down because they are either getting held, or they want to keep control and know they are safer doing this by holding them close and putting pressure on the opponent.

Second, change the arm traps and add feints to ground strikes. Change the arm traps by putting a longer cooldown on doing them consecutively without catching one. This allows feints to set up a strike by getting them to go for the arm trap, then having to block the next strike or transition. The latter is a counter to feints. Transitioning during a feint would work like transitioning while their arm is up trying to strike. It gives you the time to transition. Still allow denials though after a feint.

Third, remove the sweep from most fighters. Instead make it a move that helps eat stamina. Actually let it hold it with one opportunity to deny the pulling out of the arm to further drain their stamina, but their stamina gets frozen as well. (No deny to gain stamina here.) Or let it be a position that gives the ground guy more GA to transition. We still need to be able to strike here. So let us still strike with one arm to give the top fighter options too. Not every arm trap is safe. These happen all the time, and rarely do you see the sweep. It does happen, but more often it is used to close the distance to keep the damage to a minimum. A lot of fighters still elbow their opponent when their arm is trapped. Let this be a way to get out as well. Strike to release. This adds more risk/reward to the position. The counters to the strikes could be a transition, block, or possibly going for an armbar if your opponent has one, and is a fighter who would have this. Also add a small slam out. Use L1/LB and up to quickly try and pull your arm out and lay back flat on the opponent, and/or possibly come back down with your elbow to their chin as an offensive move that does damage. Much like a slam damages the body. This elbow to the chin does head damage. (This move costs more stamina, but has a smaller deny window.) Which should help in transitioning up and/or out of the position on the defensive side. (GA points gained with this move allows for a faster posture up. The time between the slam and posture up should still allow a denial and quicker transition out.)

Lastly, make the options for arm traps position specific. You aren't going to be able to put your arm to their chin from full guard. There are other options though. Like standing up when an arm gets trapped, or a slam like Faber did. Make it go to a mid stacked guard. (We really need two types of stacked guard. A lot of fighters stack, but not fully.)

As you can see, he pulled his arm out and elbowed. This should be able to be done in the game. The slam gives you GA points, lowers the stamina of both fighters, but allows the arm to be pulled out quicker and an elbow landed. The slam should make the arm trap hard to deny, and/or harder to transition out of for the defensive player during this sequence.

Okay, so it isn't as easy as I initially said. However, just a few of these options could be added to help make the arm trap more realistic. It is more of a defensive move, not an offensive one.