Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[Not_Entertained]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

tbh not many people in MMA use 360 head movement its too dangerous! Most people do use slip and counter shots like how it is in ea ufc 3 but i would like to see the abilty to use the 360 headmovement but ratings should make it less viable for people that dont use it making it slow. Or it could be tied into perks to quicken the speed and fluidity of it for certan fighters!

But it should at least be possible to do. Make it a high risk, high reward type of thing.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I think very few people dont want it in at all. There is a group that wants it in for every fighter. A group that wants it in for some fighters. I'm in the second group but I also dont want it to be tacked on and rushed just because a vocal group of people want FNC style head movement.

One thing that completely doesnt work for me is the realism vs. freedom issue. You want to be free to fight like Floyd with whoever even if it isnt successful, right?

My issue is its a bad look for the game to have you using 360 head movement while using Tim Johnson or Evan Dunham. There should be a clear visual difference depending on who you use. In order to have that clear difference, 360 head movement should only be given to the people who actually utilize that movement in real life. Just like we wouldnt give someone a spinning back kick who doesnt use it in real life.

If we do that it really only leaves 5% of the fighters who would use this feature which is a fine addition if the devs have time but there are so many other things that I would tackle first.

Put me in the camp that wants everyone to have it to some extent. This is where the levels of fluidity would come in. Brock Lesnar has the physical capability to move in any direction, but you would look foolish trying to formulate a strategy with him that involved trying to dodge punches. His movements should be very slow and almost just a survival method with that kind of control.

For your example, Dunham should move nothing like Tim Elliot. Those fighters that have displayed this technique on a regular basis should be most suitable for fighting while using a lot of head movement.

I get what you're saying about fighters having signature attacks, but I don't feel like head movement and someone throwing a caopiera kick are in the same category.



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[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Put me in the camp that wants everyone to have it to some extent. This is where the levels of fluidity would come in. Brock Lesnar has the physical capability to move in any direction, but you would look foolish trying to formulate a strategy with him that involved trying to dodge punches. His movements should be very slow and almost just a survival method with that kind of control.

For your example, Dunham should move nothing like Tim Elliot. Those fighters that have displayed this technique on a regular basis should be most suitable for fighting while using a lot of head movement.

I get what you're saying about fighters having signature attacks, but I don't feel like head movement and someone throwing a caopiera kick are in the same category.



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It doesnt just have to be signature attacks. I've seen posts from people here mad because a fighter has an overhand when he never throws one in real life. This forum is always arguing about how things should be hyper realistic but we would be ok with every fighters having the same ability (not speed) to use 360 head movement to avoid strikes.

Also its not likely as easy as to add some think it is (not saying you think its easy to add). Off the top of my head, here are my questions:

- How much stamina is drained from using 360 HM? How much short term v. long term?

- How much vulnerability? More than using the current head movement? Less? How much grapple advantage?

- Does the team even have the animations for it? How do they look? Do they flow well with strikes?

- Any AI changes needed for them to use the 360 head movement?

All those questions need to be answered (and likely more) before this is even considered. I'm not saying that they cant be answered. It just will be alot of work.

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

It doesnt just have to be signature attacks. I've seen posts from people here mad because a fighter has an overhand when he never throws one in real life. This forum is always arguing about how things should be hyper realistic but we would be ok with every fighters having the same ability (not speed) to use 360 head movement to avoid strikes.

Also its not likely as easy as to add some think it is (not saying you think its easy to add). Off the top of my head, here are my questions:

- How much stamina is drained from using 360 HM? How much short term v. long term?

- How much vulnerability? More than using the current head movement? Less? How much grapple advantage?

- Does the team even have the animations for it? How do they look? Do they flow well with strikes?

- Any AI changes needed for them to use the 360 head movement?

All those questions need to be answered (and likely more) before this is even considered. I'm not saying that they cant be answered. It just will be alot of work.

And basically something to be added in a whishlist topic for UFC 4. No way am I believing they'd have time implementing that in the month and a half remaining.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Can I answer this?
- Sure.

The set distance for the current slips is irrelevant. It's not having the freedom to decide for myself how far I want to slip that's the problem.
- Are you sure it's irrelevant? Do you want the addition of shorter slips or longer ones?

Because moving a little means risking moving too little. In which case this happens.
- So it would be about pressig the stick always to like... 30%?

There's no way you can lean at an angle that will dodge all punches, kicks, knees and elbows one can throw.
- How would diagonal leans work for you? Would they combine the evasion of ducking and side-leaning?

Yes.
- Did you already get used to slips in EA UFC 3?

........................

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

To add to what I previously said. Going into a defensive shell and just avoiding and blocking punches to weather a storm is a pretty common thing.

So we should also be able block while moving our head.

Most recent example:



He's not just blocking, he's not just moving his head. He's doing both.

Pro's
- You're really hard to hit.

Con's
- More tiring than just head movement or blocking.
- Even more susceptible to take-downs, clinching, leg kicks, body shots
- No offensive ability at all
- If something does manage to connect clean, it should be the equivalent of a counter hit




The ones you don't see coming are the ones that hurt you the most.

Example of people getting moving their head and blocking at the same time but getting hit anyway. Spoiler alert, they have a bad time.







On top of being realistic it would prevent this tactic from being overpowered & abused.

This and your first post have essentially articulated all my points on head movement better than I ever could, so good job and thanks for saving me some copy pasta haha.

But in all seriousness, I've been super vocal on this, and GPDs mention of considering it as a secondary line of defense made me have to change my underwear.

But while the UFC 3 system isn't perfect, ill give it credit where credit is due, it still felt better than any other MMA games head movement, even with those input issues in the beta. I think if they knock off those frames that just cause input lag and made it so your character began swaying with the input. And the range of the sway was dictated by their stat, not the delay, wed have a nice compromise that gives us a far closer to reactive head movement, without requiring a total overhaul of the current system.

As sadly, while I'm no developer, once I heard that FNC was analouge accuracy vs UFC 3s digital, Martial Mind explained the difference excellently in another post, but this change within itself MAY make true FNC style, reactive 360* headmovement impossible to incorporate with the new accuracy system. Which, when oversimplifyed, is basically "X dodges Y, Y counters Z and Z beats X".

Just my thoughts, but as time goes on I think more and more I need to play the final game before truly jumping on the "this HAS to be changed" train.
Even though I think it should be, I don't want it to change if its just gonna.break the game.or.something, i'd rather wait.

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The deterrent doesnt mean its not ugly to look at though. The fact is there are maybe 5 UFC fighters that use head movement like this. Adding it to every one would encourage people to use it and adding it to only 5 fighters would be alot of work for very little benefit.

So is people spamming 1-2s. So is people spamming any kind of strike. The player is in control at the end of the day. MMA fighters are capable of bobbing and weaving recklessly. They just don't because they'd get KO'd or taken down.

Just wanna say I'm very grateful that people are being really vocal about this now. It's quite obviously something that could do with improvement. I think the striking game has come leaps and bounds but reaching perfection (or something close to it) was never going to happen in a couple of years.

As long as people continue to be vocal about this... I'm sure it will be changed at some point : )

[aholbert32]

Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

So is people spamming 1-2s. So is people spamming any kind of strike. The player is in control at the end of the day. MMA fighters are capable of bobbing and weaving recklessly. They just don't because they'd get KO'd or taken down.

Just wanna say I'm very grateful that people are being really vocal about this now. It's quite obviously something that could do with improvement. I think the striking game has come leaps and bounds but reaching perfection (or something close to it) was never going to happen in a couple of years.

As long as people continue to be vocal about this... I'm sure it will be changed at some point : )

Most mma fighters are capable of doing a spinning back fist but we don’t give everyone in the game a spinning back fist because they don’t do it in real life. Same with a simple move like a standing elbow.


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[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Most mma fighters are capable of doing a spinning back fist but we don’t give everyone in the game a spinning back fist because they don’t do it in real life. Same with a simple move like a standing elbow.


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They'd do a spinning backfist poorly, yes. Which is why you have stats to make sure everyone isn't moving their head like Tyson.

Actually, bobbing and weaving is the primary defence right now so I'm not sure what point you're making tbh? Everyone in the game can currently move their head like that. Just at different levels.

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

They'd do a spinning backfist poorly, yes. Which is why you have stats to make sure everyone isn't moving their head like Tyson.



Actually, bobbing and weaving is the primary defence right now so I'm not sure what point you're making tbh? Everyone in the game can currently move their head like that. Just at different levels.

The point I’m making is that there is a difference between bobbing and weaving and the 360 movement you and others are asking for. Every fighter uses head movement of some kind but not everyone uses 360 movement like Anderson or Cody.

Your point appears to be that everyone COULD do it if they wanted to so everyone should have it. My counter is everyone could throw a standing elbow but we only give them to fighters who actually USE them.

I don’t want to see people spamming standing elbows with fighters who don’t throw elbows in real life. Just like I don’t want to see people using 360 head movement with fighters who don’t use it in real life.



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[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The point I’m making is that there is a difference between bobbing and weaving and the 360 movement you and others are asking for. Every fighter uses head movement of some kind but not everyone uses 360 movement like Anderson or Cody.

Your point appears to be that everyone COULD do it if they wanted to so everyone should have it. My counter is everyone could throw a standing elbow but we only give them to fighters who actually USE them.

I don’t want to see people spamming standing elbows with fighters who don’t throw elbows in real life. Just like I don’t want to see people using 360 head movement with fighters who don’t use it in real life.



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Most clips I've seen posted so far don't really sell the 360 aspect either.

Most of them are fast, discrete transitions between one of four angles.

The only real difference being the look of the transition (cody vs anderson's style is very different).

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The point I’m making is that there is a difference between bobbing and weaving and the 360 movement you and others are asking for. Every fighter uses head movement of some kind but not everyone uses 360 movement like Anderson or Cody.

Your point appears to be that everyone COULD do it if they wanted to so everyone should have it. My counter is everyone could throw a standing elbow but we only give them to fighters who actually USE them.

I don’t want to see people spamming standing elbows with fighters who don’t throw elbows in real life. Just like I don’t want to see people using 360 head movement with fighters who don’t use it in real life.



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Everybody DOES use 360 head movement. But not everybody is slipping combos like Cody. Everybody uses head movement far more dynamic than what we have in UFC 3. Everybody moves their head in all kinds of directions.

I don't see an issue with what Cody does being possible with an average-ish fighter. As long as it's significantly more difficult.

But again... if you're gonna go with this argument... you are also indirectly ****ting on UFC 3. Everybody can bob and weave like crazy and not every fighter does that irl. And I think it's fine that everyone can. As long as it's harder with some fighters than it is others.

Bro... trust me... 360 head movement is the way if it's done right.

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Most clips I've seen posted so far don't really sell the 360 aspect either.

Most of them are fast, discrete transitions between one of four angles.

The only real difference being the look of the transition (cody vs anderson's style is very different).

I've posted so many GIFS of fighters moving their head slightly off the center line in the last couple months man. It's a part of MMA (all striking sports) that is very common. 360 head movement does not mean being Anderson Silva. It just means having more angular control.

Whether you're for it being in the game aside or not... It is an undeniable part of MMA.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I've posted so many GIFS of fighters moving their head slightly off the center line in the last couple months man. It's a part of MMA (all striking sports) that is very common. 360 head movement does not mean being Anderson Silva. It just means having more angular control.

Whether you're for it being in the game aside or not... It is an undeniable part of MMA.

The Aldo gif someone posted was the closest I've seen in this thread to 360 analog control.

The rest maybe make a good case for different magnitudes.

But not so much different angles.

And that's just looking at the clips from an aesthetics standpoint.

What it would actually add to the gameplay is another question.

Keep in mind, people are already complaining about control complexity.

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The Aldo gif someone posted was the closest I've seen in this thread to 360 analog control.

The rest maybe make a good case for different magnitudes.

But not so much different angles.

And that's just looking at the clips from an aesthetics standpoint.

What it would actually add to the gameplay is another question.

Keep in mind, people are already complaining about control complexity.

360 head movement makes the most sense to me. It's the ideal scenario. It's not like every fighter is always moving their head the exact same distance to the left. Fighters are moving their heads at all different angles.

However, smaller slips would help a lot also. Being able to lean a bit to the left and then all the way to the left for example. It would certainly be a strong improvement and give boxing on the outside some more life.

I'm not a game designer and can't really contribute to control scheme and all that stuff. But as far as what's ideal... It's 360 head movement. I don't really understand why anybody would disagree with that. Whether you think it would add enough to the game to be worthy of doing it that way is another discussion (one I'm sure I and others are happy to have). But it's still best case scenario.