Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Same for scorecards. This is one analogy you can't escape from. You're going to have to to come up with an argument that doesn't make you contradict yourself. x_x

I already outlined the difference.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I already outlined the difference.

You said scorecards wouldn't affect player decisions as much as meters do. Any (e)athlete on the planet will tell you that's simply not true.

Meters affect your choice in tactics.
Scorecards determine strategy, which in turn affects which tactics are even on the table.

This isn't something you can argue, it's an absolute undeniable fact in any competitie endeavor where one can win on points. We can disagree on how to deal with facts, but we don't get to have our own.

You'll need to outline the difference in a way that doesn't blatently contradict reality.


Fact
- Both give 100% accurate information about things fighters irl can only make educated guesses about.
- Both significantly improve decision making. <-- Which is your argument in favor of meters

Question
So again, why do you favor one over the other?

[aholbert32]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

You said scorecards wouldn't affect player decisions as much as meters do. Any (e)athlete on the planet will tell you that's simply not true.

Meters determine tactics.
Scorecards determine strategy, which in turn affect tactics.

This isn't something you can argue, it's an absolute undeniable fact in any competitie endeavor where one can win on points. We can disagree on how to deal with facts, but we don't get to have our own.

You'll need to outline the difference in a way that doesn't blatently contradict reality.


Fact
Meters improve the quality of decision making. Scorecards also improve the quality of decision making. Arguably more heavily than meters ever could. Yet, you favor one over the other.

Question
Why?

I'm pro removing the meters but I disagree with this. With meters the effect is immediate. I can see that someone is low on stamina/block meter/health and immediately adjust my tactics. I can also specifically adjust them related to what the bars show me.

With scorecards, I just know whether I'm winning or losing. As you said it determines strategy but it isnt as specific as my opponent's meter.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I'm pro removing the meters but I disagree with this. With meters the effect is immediate. I can see that someone is low on stamina/block meter/health and immediately adjust my tactics. I can also specifically adjust them related to what the bars show me.

With scorecards, I just know whether I'm winning or losing. As you said it determines strategy but it isnt as specific as my opponent's meter.

You caught me mid edit.

What I was trying to say is that meters affect micro interactions while scorecards affect the macro picture of your decision making. To the point where it affects if not outright determines how you make use of the information meters provide.



Example scenario:

You're fighting a heavy handed counter puncher with amazing timing. You've been able to win most of the interactions, but the times he's caught you were bad. You were rocked and in danger of being finished. You're now in the 5th.

In the lead
You're ahead 3 - 1 on the scorecard. You have a significant stamina advantage. Your overall strategy is now to just survive this round. No need to risk getting knocked out.

He pushed you towards the fence and he's swinging, you moved your head to make him miss, his temp stamina drained. Pop him with a quick strike and use that opportunity to circle back to the center of the octagon and make him meet you there.

Even
It's even going into the last round. You have a significant stamina advantage.
Your overall strategy centered around winning this round. You can't get too reckless or you risk getting knocked down which will cost you the round. Or worse, knocked out.

He pushed you towards the fence and he's swinging, you moved your head to make him miss, his temp stamina drained. You circle back towards the center and turn the situation around on him. Now he's on the fence. You throw calculated shots to try and hurt him without overextending. The longer he's stuck on that fence, the better your chances of winning this round and the fight.

You're down
You're down 1 - 3 on the scorecards. You have a significant stamina advantage. It doesn't matter if he's a counter puncher, it doesn't matter if his hands are heavy. You have to push forward and go for a finish or you're done anyway.

He won't push you to the fence because he's winning. You have to go to him instead. Which you do. He's comfortably sitting back inviting you to punch him, hoping you'll overextend and he can counter you properly.

You bait out a punch, he's swinging, you moved your head to make him miss, his temp stamina drained. You unleash a barrage of strikes to try and finish your opponent at the risk of getting countered and knocked down or out yourself.




Obviously these are fictional examples, but this is what happens in real life. You get three fundamentally different decisions to the exact same meter values depending on what you think is on the scorecards.

This doesn't just happen in fighting but in any competition with a timer and a point system.

So again, stamina determines your timing for pushing a certain tactic and which tactic from a set of useful tactics you end up choosing. Scorecards determine the list of useful tactics.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Picture this:

1- We play some matches without meters or scorecards, as a control sample.

2- We play some matches only knowing the scorecards round by round.

3- We play some matches only seeing the meters.

You seem to think 2 would be more different than 1. My bet is that 3 would be more different than one. If you want to call your bet an undeniable fact, go ahead.

Keep in mind it's not only the effect of the meters, it's also the viability of estimating them. I think they're much harder to estimate (remember the small differences in stamina that make a big difference in decisions). You seem to think they're easier to estimate. You can call your POV fact here, too.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Picture this:

1- We play some matches without meters or scorecards, as a control sample.

2- We play some matches only knowing the scorecards round by round.

3- We play some matches only seeing the meters.

You seem to think 2 would be more different than 1. My bet is that 3 would be more different than one. If you want to call your bet an undeniable fact, go ahead.

I didn't call that an undeniable fact. I said that scorecards arguably affect the game more than meters do. Because whether or not their impact is significant depends a lot on how close of a game it is and the type of players that are fighting.

What's undeniable is that scorecards can and a lot of times do change the course if not outright the outcome of a fight.

Keep in mind it's not only the effect of the meters, it's also the viability of estimating them.

Point being?

I think they're much harder to estimate (remember the small differences in stamina that make a big difference in decisions)

How is this relevant to my argument exactly..?

You seem to think they're easier to estimate. You can call your POV fact here, too.

Easier to estimate than what? I don't even know what you're trying to say.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I find it OK to keep score cards hidden, because they're easier to estimate and their effect on specific decisions is smaller. Both things in comparison to stamina.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I find it OK to keep score cards hidden, because they're easier to estimate and their effect on specific decisions is smaller. Both things in comparison to stamina.

How is that an argument to keep them hidden?

You think the effect meters have on the game is favorable. So why would you not want something that would, by your standards, improve the game? Even if you think it's by a smaller margin.

By the way, I'm really not trying to give you a hard time or ask questions for the sake of asking. I just genuinely do not understand your position..

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Think of a breakpoint. I've said a few times: it's not the more info the merrier.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Think of a breakpoint. I've said a few times: it's not the more info the merrier.

How can scorecards be the breaking point when you think the effect is smaller? Unless you think it's cumulative?

In which case, would you be in favor of scorecards if we removed meters?

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Jesus Cuh-rist.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Jesus Cuh-rist.

God forbid trying to get to the core of our disagreement.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

God forbid trying to get to the core of our disagreement.

I understand what he's saying, President Trump understands what he's saying, my grandma's dead dog understands what he's saying.

You're being pedantic and purposefully obtuse. How many ways does he have to explain it?

Scorecards don't effect the gameplay that much that removing them affects it. You generally know when you're winning or losing.

Meters are absolutely essential to the current state of gameplay. There is a good chance it would completely break the game if they were removed. The game was not built around that feature.

[Evil97]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

God forbid trying to get to the core of our disagreement.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I understand what he's saying, President Trump understands what he's saying, my grandma's dead dog understands what he's saying.

His stated position is contradictory. Saying you understand his position is like saying you can conceptualize a square-circle. Which is why keep asking him to elaborate. Because I'm assuming his actual position isn't contradictory.

You're being pedantic and purposefully obtuse.

You're a mind-reader now?

How many ways does he have to explain it?

Either as many times as it takes for him not to have inherently contradictory positions, or until he doesn't feel like explaining it anymore.

Scorecards don't effect the gameplay that much that removing them affects it. You generally know when you're winning or losing.

1) Again, if the effect is favorable, why not just add them?
2) Saying they don't affect things as much is bull**** for the reasons I've stated. Your entire game plan changes depending on whether you're winning or losing.

And in THIS THREAD you'll find plenty of stories of ****ty decisions. It's not at all reliable.

Meters are absolutely essential to the current state of gameplay. There is a good chance it would completely break the game if they were removed. The game was not built around that feature.

Great, more straw men.

I'll say it again, if you don't know what my position is, you can't actually argue against it.