Add Depth, control simplicity, and fluidity to takedowns and clinch in UFC 4

[iceberg3445]

In the current game, takedowns are too linear and not intertwined with the clinch.

By “too linear” I mean you either get the takedown or you don’t (in the game). There’s no struggle to get the fight to the ground via diverse takedown defense window animations forcing wrestlers/judo players to chain together different takedown attempts after initial TD attempts are denied (without completely stuffing the takedown altogether).

Add depth to takedowns and intertwine the takedowns with the clinch to make wrestling and control an important element of gameplay (especially for “grappling on the feet” and takedowns).

Read my previous posts for more information on potential solutions.

[Serengeti1]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

No way we get this in UFC 3 but would be a great addition in the next game. There's definitely room for the takedown game to be more dynamic.

[Nugget7211]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

Yeah, transitional spaces are what needs the most work. Moving from striking to the clinch to a takedown needs to be way more fluid than it is now. I think a great step would realistic takedown feints, and we might be able to get that in 3 (I'm aware this is quite optimistic)

[iceberg3445]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

No way we get this in UFC 3 but would be a great addition in the next game. There's definitely room for the takedown game to be more dynamic.

Exactly. To add a realistic level of depth to takedowns/clinch would require many new animations and takedown defense windows that probably can’t be patched in.

I think the grapple dial can still be useful in these scrambles however, so the actual gameplay mechanics wouldn’t need changing; just adding animations to takedowns/takedown defense/and clinch.


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[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

It's a huge need in EA UFC. Only going into sprawl or having the take down shrugged after a failed attempt is not true to life at all. In some cases it needs to result into a clinch position or a single leg attempt animation where you can still try to take them down. And if you keep getting denied it should drain stamina a bit more.

Btw that tda to sprawl animation is pretty bad. Esp when it goes from clinch position to sprawl. It doesn't make the most sense and just looks completely unnatural.

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[iceberg3445]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

It's a huge need in EA UFC. Only going into sprawl or having the take down shrugged after a failed attempt is not true to life at all. In some cases it needs to result into a clinch position or a single leg attempt animation where you can still try to take them down. And if you keep getting denied it should drain stamina a bit more.

Btw that tda to sprawl animation is pretty bad. Esp when it goes from clinch position to sprawl. It doesn't make the most sense and just looks completely unnatural.

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Spoken like a true wrestler.

I agree about the takedown to sprawl animation. It’s way too slow and the animation happens far too often. That takedown defense animation should be replaced by a takedown to clinch animation, since that occurs much more often in real life MMA.

Sprawl should only occur when the takedown is denied preemptively. But there should also be many other takedown defense animations (one example being the single leg standing position after defending a single leg late), each occurring when takedowns are defended at different points in the takedown defense window.


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[iceberg3445]

Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

Would also like some fighters to sprint in their double leg, even just to get the other fighter to the cage.



TD mechanics could work something like this:

1) Takedown attempted, takedown denial not well timed but not bad either - no sprawl occurs as a result

2) Takedown struggle starts

3) Takedown guy can chain into a second takedown attempt OR continue with current attempt & Takedown defender can either try to read it and deny OR transition out / get free. Both can act simultaneously to an extent depending on the situation.



Perhaps there's an explosive meter in there somewhere too which a player can activate at the right time at the expense of stamina, with some fighters being better than others at explosive wrasslin'



And perhaps find a way to get balance & centre of gravity into the mix too to avoid a rock paper scissors style system.

Agreed. I think follow up TDD animations should occur depending on when in the TDD window the takedown is defended.

Regarding the charging takedown accross the octagon (like seen last night with Miocic), I think that should occur (maybe with slower locomotion like in UD3) when double leg TDs are defended late in the TDD window. From there, both fighters should have options to gain advantage in the scramble using the grapple dial. This would often result in the takedown against the cage position which is in the new game but does not occur as often as it should.

When single legs are defended late in the TDD window, it should result in the single leg standing position, from where both fighters can use the grapple dial to advance position or break. Locomotion would also be a factor from this position, with the defending player forced to balance on one leg.

That said, I think the most common TDD animation should be the over under/double under clinch. Single leg standing or double leg driving should be next most common. Push always should be next most common, and the sprawl should be relatively rare.


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[iceberg3445]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

For anyone who is interested, I wrote a much more detailed solution to adding depth to the takedowns (and clinch) here:

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...d.php?t=923827


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[ImAnOlogist]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

There are hardcore MMA fans, Casual MMA fans and then people who just know a few guys. The game is meant to be picked up and easily accessible by all of these people.


There are hardcore gamers, casuals and those who pick it up when at a friends house. The game is mean to be accessible by these folks too.


To find a balance between accessible, functional and fun is extremely difficult.

[iceberg3445]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

There are hardcore MMA fans, Casual MMA fans and then people who just know a few guys. The game is meant to be picked up and easily accessible by all of these people.


There are hardcore gamers, casuals and those who pick it up when at a friends house. The game is mean to be accessible by these folks too.


To find a balance between accessible, functional and fun is extremely difficult.

I see where you’re coming from and have considered this. I do think this element of depth can be added to takedowns and picked up relatively easily by new players.

After all, it would still incorporate the grapple dial and show players what their options are in any given post-takedown defense animation.

Really, the only change would be an increase in follow up animations depending on when/if a takedown is defended.

Honestly, I think the new striking animations are more complicated than this addition to takedowns would be. I should say that I love the new striking mechanics.

In fact, I think grappling on the feet right now is more complicated that the proposed solution would be. In order to defend a takedown by clinching or reversing takedowns with submissions or counter takedowns, players are forced to use entirely different controls than when they are defending takedowns.

Adding depth to takedowns would allow players to use the same takedown defense controls, but the follow up positions would be dictated by the timing in the TDD window and from the corresponding follow up position, players can choose via the grapple dial to engage in the clinch, reverse takedowns via submissions/counter takedowns, etc.

The options for players would increase and the controls would be simplified. Therefore I think depth can be added and the game would actually become MORE accessible and user-friendly.

Does that make sense?


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[Not_Entertained]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

There are hardcore MMA fans, Casual MMA fans and then people who just know a few guys. The game is meant to be picked up and easily accessible by all of these people.


There are hardcore gamers, casuals and those who pick it up when at a friends house. The game is mean to be accessible by these folks too.


To find a balance between accessible, functional and fun is extremely difficult.

Forget balance and casual players, they should make these games as deep and as technical as possible. No room for Call Of Duty players or pick up and play gamers. The gaming industry is getting ruined because of them.

[RetractedMonkey]

Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

Forget balance and casual players, they should make these games as deep and as technical as possible. No room for Call Of Duty players or pick up and play gamers. The gaming industry is getting ruined because of them.

Nevermind that this is just a bad argument, but “ruining the gaming industry”?

The gaming industry is better than ever. Just avoid most of the AAA stuff. Indie gaming is at an all time high. Quality, creative games are a dime a dozen now. You think it’s ruined because people want to play Call of Duty?


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[iceberg3445]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

Ultimately, depth can be added to takedowns while making the game MORE simple and user-friendly, not less so (see post above).

Would rather not fill this thread with off-topic arguments about the gaming industry.

Any game changers present that can chime in/pass this thread along to game devs?


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[port913]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

Question for the wrestlers:
Does the thecnique change based on the opponet movement?
Example: single leg on forward moving opponet as opposed to backward moving?
Same question for double leg

[iceberg3445]

Re: Can’t wrestle like DC in the game, takedowns too linear

Question for the wrestlers:

Does the thecnique change based on the opponet movement?

Example: single leg on forward moving opponet as opposed to backward moving?

Same question for double leg

Absolutely. Fighter movement does influence which takedown is more effective.

This is probably most obvious with the double leg takedown, which is most effective when used while the opponent is moving toward you (GSP did this often by ducking punches and using double legs to takedown forward-moving opponents). Double legs also require you to be closer to your opponent, and therefore are better at closer ranges.

Single legs are a bit more versatile with regard to the opponent’s movement and allow the aggressor more options to get the fight to the ground. Fighter movement is less of a factor here, and a single leg can be acquired at longer ranges than double legs (since you only need to grab one leg, not both).

Single legs are best for providing different options to bring the fight to the ground (while doubles are better for ensuring control over your opponent). For example, once the single leg is grabbed, the aggressor can ankle pick, sweep the leg, “turn the corner”, pivot the leg to change balance, trip, or transition to a double leg (just a few options).

I should point out that EA UFC single leg animations only show the “turning the corner” technique.

Double leg takedowns, while allowing for more control, are harder to achieve because they often require short ranges. This is why many double leg takedowns are defended resulting in either (1) the opponent pushing the other against the cage and clinching or (2) transitioning to a single leg.




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