Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

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  • Kingslayer04
    MVP
    • Dec 2017
    • 1482

    #946
    Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

    Originally posted by Phillyboi207
    Hey Skynet do you think we could have pro difficulty be for the “sim guys?

    Have the fighters tuned to their real life counterparts regardless of relentless pressure or running?

    I’d love to have Nate keep coming forward or Wonderboy to keep running.

    Legendary can be for comp guys and casuals can have hard and below.

    If this is doable I’d be more then happy to post AI suggestions. I can even include gifs if needed.
    Why not have them properly named though, i.e. Sim, rather than Pro? It would be so much more helpful for people who right now are wondering what each difficulty brings. But I would like that, for sure: AI does what the real life counterpart does. Sounds great. Would love it to be Sim in more ways than just that, though.

    Comment

    • Skynet
      EA Sports UFC Developer
      • Mar 2015
      • 703

      #947
      Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

      That has indeed been the intent in UFC 2 & 3. It's not perfect in execution, but pro (called hard in UFC 2) was supposed to be the most realistic difficulty, with the last one being the most challenging but not as authentic. Sadly, there are only so many tools at my disposal the create challenge, and eventually some of them break the experience when cranked up too much.

      As to renaming the difficulties, that's not a bad idea though I'm not 100% sold. How would you rank the following difficulties, if you hadn't seen this discussion before: easy, beginner, experienced, hard, simulation? I'd say there are a few equally valid ways to rank those.

      Having names that don't imply a distinct hierarchy can be rather confusing to users, and are open to interpretation. While they are on an ordered list in the game, it's still not always clear. And for many people pro might not be the closest thing to a sim experience. A lot of people actually prefer hard with sliders...so while our intent is to make pro the most authentic, in comparison to other options it really is just a difficulty bump.

      Comment

      • Phillyboi207
        Banned
        • Apr 2012
        • 3159

        #948
        Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

        Originally posted by Skynet
        That has indeed been the intent in UFC 2 & 3. It's not perfect in execution, but pro (called hard in UFC 2) was supposed to be the most realistic difficulty, with the last one being the most challenging but not as authentic. Sadly, there are only so many tools at my disposal the create challenge, and eventually some of them break the experience when cranked up too much.

        As to renaming the difficulties, that's not a bad idea though I'm not 100% sold. How would you rank the following difficulties, if you hadn't seen this discussion before: easy, beginner, experienced, hard, simulation? I'd say there are a few equally valid ways to rank those.

        Having names that don't imply a distinct hierarchy can be rather confusing to users, and are open to interpretation. While they are on an ordered list in the game, it's still not always clear. And for many people pro might not be the closest thing to a sim experience. A lot of people actually prefer hard with sliders...so while our intent is to make pro the most authentic, in comparison to other options it really is just a difficulty bump.
        I’d be cool with keeping it as “Pro”. I just remember at some point the Diaz type AIs were constantly in your face. I fought Diaz recently and a few times when I was tired he allowed me to back up and recover. Instead of following me or (in a dream world) points and laughing at me for “running”

        Btw will it be possible for the computers to ever be aware of rating diffences or the move levels of their opponents? Or to adjust in 3 vs 5 round fights. Would love a mini scouting report on the fighter select screen.

        It’d be really cool if the AI adjusted depending on opponent.

        Like how Colby and Usman kept it standing vs Maia. Or how Poirier was way more tentative vs Khabib due to Khabib’s takedown ability.

        Then if the coaching between rounds was more accurate and they adjusted depending on the advice given.

        Last thing would be the cpu becoming more aggressive when our stamina or health flashes. Right now they know to back up to protect themselves but they dont seem aggressive enough when there’s an opportunity for them

        Sorry I know this was all over the place lol. Just some stuff I’d love to see for offine
        Last edited by Phillyboi207; 09-27-2019, 02:19 PM.

        Comment

        • Solid_Altair
          EA Game Changer
          • Apr 2016
          • 2043

          #949
          Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

          Originally posted by Phillyboi207
          I’d be cool with keeping it as “Pro”. I just remember at some point the Diaz type AIs were constantly in your face. I fought Diaz recently and a few times when I was tired he allowed me to back up and recover. Instead of following me or (in a dream world) points and laughing at me for “running”

          Btw will it be possible for the computers to ever be aware of rating diffences or the move levels of their opponents? Or to adjust in 3 vs 5 round fights. Would love a mini scouting report on the fighter select screen.

          It’d be really cool if the AI adjusted depending on opponent.

          Like how Colby and Usman kept it standing vs Maia. Or how Poirier was way more tentative vs Khabib due to Khabib’s takedown ability.

          Then if the coaching between rounds was more accurate and they adjusted depending on the advice given.

          Last thing would be the cpu becoming more aggressive when our stamina or health flashes. Right now they know to back up to peotect themselves but they dont seem aggressive enough when there’s an opportunity for them

          Sorry I know this was all over the place lol. Just some stuff I’d love to see for offine
          Please don't apologize. All that was good feedback. And it wasn't too scattered at all.

          Comment

          • Skynet
            EA Sports UFC Developer
            • Mar 2015
            • 703

            #950
            Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

            Originally posted by Phillyboi207
            I’d be cool with keeping it as “Pro”. I just remember at some point the Diaz type AIs were constantly in your face. I fought Diaz recently and a few times when I was tired he allowed me to back up and recover. Instead of following me or (in a dream world) points and laughing at me for “running”

            Btw will it be possible for the computers to ever be aware of rating diffences or the move levels of their opponents? Or to adjust in 3 vs 5 round fights. Would love a mini scouting report on the fighter select screen.

            It’d be really cool if the AI adjusted depending on opponent.

            Like how Colby and Usman kept it standing vs Maia. Or how Poirier was way more tentative vs Khabib due to Khabib’s takedown ability.

            Then if the coaching between rounds was more accurate and they adjusted depending on the advice given.

            Last thing would be the cpu becoming more aggressive when our stamina or health flashes. Right now they know to back up to protect themselves but they dont seem aggressive enough when there’s an opportunity for them

            Sorry I know this was all over the place lol. Just some stuff I’d love to see for offine
            +1 on Solid's thought, don't apologize for giving feedback, especially the constructive kind. It's why we're here

            That being said, it is very possible for the AI to take ratings and opponent style into account. Even as far as perks and movesets. There is a little of that in UFC 3, but I've had plans/thoughts for significantly more than what is there at the moment.

            3 v 5 round fights does come into play, but it's hard to tell to be honest. I'm not sure if that speaks more to it being under-tuned, or to the difference just not being all that meaningful to begin with. This really only comes out as reduced aggression.

            As for increased aggression during opponent health events, the AI is significantly more like to be aggressive during those times, but it can happen that it is trying to recover already or is trying to setup a different situation, like a counter, and it just isn't listening for that context to know it should change. It's a pretty complicated system, and sometimes it puts itself in a place that it can't switch out of for a short period....and health events are pretty short.

            I've actually had plans and changes go in for more medium term behavioral changes that account for this better, such as just bumping up aggression after health events for 30 seconds to a minute to capitalize and cause more, etc.

            There's always more to do! Thanks for the feedback. It's always good to know when I'm heading in the right direction, and good to know what other directions to explore

            Comment

            • Phillyboi207
              Banned
              • Apr 2012
              • 3159

              #951
              Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

              Awesome response but I wanted to clarify one thing

              By “flashes” i didnt mean health events. When we get rocked they’re aggressive but our stamina /health will also flash when it gets low and not just for rocks.

              In those moments the cpu doesnt seem aggressive enough. It’d be cool if depending on the fighter they would come forward while we try to retreat.

              The AI is definitely way better then it’s ever been. In really looking forward to UFC 4.

              One other thing they’re missing is feinting. Right now they’re too eager to always strike when in range instead of mixing up feints to not only save stamina but also give them counter opportunities.

              Comment

              • Kingslayer04
                MVP
                • Dec 2017
                • 1482

                #952
                Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                @Skynet

                I don't remember if I've asked this and if you've answered to it but is conscious stamina preservation something that can be implemented for the AI? I think I have asked this but I can't remember your response. Can they be made to be wary about it and to try to pace themselves, reduce aggression after being aggressive early, etc.?

                Comment

                • Skynet
                  EA Sports UFC Developer
                  • Mar 2015
                  • 703

                  #953
                  Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                  Originally posted by Phillyboi207
                  Awesome response but I wanted to clarify one thing

                  By “flashes” i didnt mean health events. When we get rocked they’re aggressive but our stamina /health will also flash when it gets low and not just for rocks.

                  In those moments the cpu doesnt seem aggressive enough. It’d be cool if depending on the fighter they would come forward while we try to retreat.

                  The AI is definitely way better then it’s ever been. In really looking forward to UFC 4.

                  One other thing they’re missing is feinting. Right now they’re too eager to always strike when in range instead of mixing up feints to not only save stamina but also give them counter opportunities.
                  Ahh, thanks for the clarification. That is indeed a different scenario, and is one that doesn't necessarily influence the aggression so much as the type of aggression. If health is low on a certain body part then the AI targets that more, if opponent stamina is low the AI is more likely to combo and aim for the body, etc. Inversely, if the AI is low/hurt they are more likely to block those locations even if their prediction is for the opposite, which allows better mixups etc.

                  Feinting is something that each AI does at a relatively constant frequency, and doesn't change all that much during the fight. It's also not super situational....not currently the most complex implementation, so there's certainly room to improve that.

                  Comment

                  • Skynet
                    EA Sports UFC Developer
                    • Mar 2015
                    • 703

                    #954
                    Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                    Originally posted by Kingslayer04
                    @Skynet

                    I don't remember if I've asked this and if you've answered to it but is conscious stamina preservation something that can be implemented for the AI? I think I have asked this but I can't remember your response. Can they be made to be wary about it and to try to pace themselves, reduce aggression after being aggressive early, etc.?
                    Hmmm, if you mean that the AI's game plan from the start is to begin aggressive and then taper off, regardless of how their stamina plays out, then no they don't currently do that. However, they are supposed to slow down in general as their max stamina goes down, but that's a fairly global behavior, not one customized to any particular fighter. More tired = slow down.

                    The stamina model is a tough one, because the AI is tuned more in terms of what actions it wants to do, and those inherently cost stamina. The AI's understanding of stamina is quite short term, and it is more of a resource to spend on actions when available and recover when it's depleted, not something to necessarily conserve in the long term. Stamina conservation is more of a side-effect of the AIs tendency to be aggressive vs passive (in various ways). Stamina management and action vs idling are kind of 2 sides of the same coin, and we think more in term of one than the other.

                    Not the perfect explanation of what's going on, but better than nothing.

                    Comment

                    • Kingslayer04
                      MVP
                      • Dec 2017
                      • 1482

                      #955
                      Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                      Originally posted by Skynet
                      Hmmm, if you mean that the AI's game plan from the start is to begin aggressive and then taper off, regardless of how their stamina plays out, then no they don't currently do that. However, they are supposed to slow down in general as their max stamina goes down, but that's a fairly global behavior, not one customized to any particular fighter. More tired = slow down.

                      The stamina model is a tough one, because the AI is tuned more in terms of what actions it wants to do, and those inherently cost stamina. The AI's understanding of stamina is quite short term, and it is more of a resource to spend on actions when available and recover when it's depleted, not something to necessarily conserve in the long term. Stamina conservation is more of a side-effect of the AIs tendency to be aggressive vs passive (in various ways). Stamina management and action vs idling are kind of 2 sides of the same coin, and we think more in term of one than the other.

                      Not the perfect explanation of what's going on, but better than nothing.
                      Thanks for the response!

                      Okay, so you're talking about how the AI thinks now: it thinks about what actions it wants to do and only "cares" about stamina in the short term. Are any changes towards its behaviour with regards to stamina on the cards for future installments in the series? Like, what could you conceivably try to achieve (without it clashing with all the work you've done up until this point of course)? Are you even interested in working in that direction at the moment, do you think that area can do with some tinkering? I'm just curious. And again, thanks for your response to a question I'm pretty sure you've responded to before!

                      Comment

                      • Skynet
                        EA Sports UFC Developer
                        • Mar 2015
                        • 703

                        #956
                        Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                        Originally posted by Kingslayer04
                        Thanks for the response!

                        Okay, so you're talking about how the AI thinks now: it thinks about what actions it wants to do and only "cares" about stamina in the short term. Are any changes towards its behaviour with regards to stamina on the cards for future installments in the series? Like, what could you conceivably try to achieve (without it clashing with all the work you've done up until this point of course)? Are you even interested in working in that direction at the moment, do you think that area can do with some tinkering? I'm just curious. And again, thanks for your response to a question I'm pretty sure you've responded to before!
                        If you're still asking, it's still relevant. I certainly tinker with it all the time, I was just trying to get across that the way in which we tinker/think about it internally is that we tune and AI's tendency to be active vs their long-term stamina management plan.

                        So we can certainly make some fighters conserve stamina more than they do, but we do so by reducing their tendency to strike/takedown, etc. We don't say "spend less stamina" we say "do less stuff". That does often mean that the stamina management itself is less tuned or less prominent in our minds when tuning, but it is still something we can influence quite strongly when we want to, it just requires a lot of little changes to other tunings, rather than a single change to one system.

                        Comment

                        • MacGowan
                          Sassy
                          • Jun 2017
                          • 1681

                          #957
                          Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                          Here's a little thing I found frustrating with the AI plan in UFC3. It does not follow the strength of the fighter.

                          Talking CAFs here.

                          They would abandoned a Full Guard Sub (having 95 bottom game) to Side control dom (having only 40 top game). It's a bit frustrating, especially if you're not well versed in MMA, you might pick Tony Ferguson's personality simply because he does a breakdance in the video, and you end up taking on a whole lot of mayhem that your CAF is not equipped for.

                          I'd love for the AI's to be mapped out a bit better.
                          BRAWLER
                          PRESSURE FIGHTER
                          GRINDER

                          Or that they change to what your CAF's stats are.
                          So if you have a wrestler with heavy hands, you can't just pick Yair Rodriguez "personality" and have it F you over.
                          Last edited by MacGowan; 10-01-2019, 03:40 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Solid_Altair
                            EA Game Changer
                            • Apr 2016
                            • 2043

                            #958
                            Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                            Originally posted by MacGowan
                            Here's a little thing I found frustrating with the AI plan in UFC3. It does not follow the strength of the fighter.

                            Talking CAFs here.

                            They would abandoned a Full Guard Sub (having 95) to Side control (having only 40). It's a bit frustrating, especially if you're not well versed in MMA, you might pick Tony Ferguson's personality simply because he does a breakdance in the video, and you end up taking on a whole lot of mayhem that your CAF is not equipped for.

                            I'd love for the AI's to be mapped out a bit better.
                            BRAWLER
                            PRESSURE FIGHTER
                            GRINDER

                            Or that they change to what your CAF's stats are.
                            So if you have a wrestler with heavy hands, you can't just pick Yair Rodriguez "personality" and have it F you over.
                            What do those numbers mean?

                            Comment

                            • MacGowan
                              Sassy
                              • Jun 2017
                              • 1681

                              #959
                              Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                              sorry.
                              95/100 bottom game
                              40/100 top game

                              Comment

                              • Skynet
                                EA Sports UFC Developer
                                • Mar 2015
                                • 703

                                #960
                                Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                                Hmmm, that's a pretty tricky one. CAFs are a very specialized scenario since they can be so incredibly imbalanced. The AI systems are designed mostly for AIs that have been balanced and assigned meaningful behaviors given their stats, etc.

                                So yeah...that'd be a definite gap in the AI. Not sure it's one that's easy to address necessarily. It would require a very significant amount of contextual information be added to almost every AI decision system to check for such imbalances. There are systems in place which compare offensive vs defensive stats when AI an has already decided to perform an action, but less so when deciding which action to perform (at the moment in UFC 3).

                                Comment

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