"predictive" head movement doesn't work

[Phillyboi207]

Re: "predictive" head movement doesn't work

You should see some of the debates I've had with Solid in our chatroom talks with the devs. Legendary. Some went on for pages and pages. I wish you guys could see transcripts. It would give you some insight into the whole process.

Let me just say that I TOO feel the delay on the head movement and I pointed it out during the first GC Event I attended. It's not NEARLY as bad as it used to be, and the planted head movement feels about 75% as good as I'd like it to feel, so at this point I've kind of settled into the idea that GPD did what he could and further pestering him about this issue (which I spent an enormous amount of time pestering him about) will yield diminishing returns.

The 360, uber-responsive FNC head movement isn't something it seems like the devs want to replicate in this game. We have a decent approximation when using the planted head movement, even though it is spastic and we can't control angles with any granularity. It's such a big improvement over UFC2 that I've kind of been placated.

But yeah, this is something I never really agreed with Solid about (the other big issue being blind pick in ranked, which he is against). TO ME, as someone who has been playing video games since the late 80's, as someone who KNOWS what responsive controls feel like (Super Mario on NES nailed it), the head movement does feel delayed.

I think it has something to do with the "dead looking" startup frames where you actually get the invuln from the stick flick within a frame but your dude doesn't visually move his head until later. Devs may have been worried about the head movement looking too fast and cartoonish, but I don't like how it feels with this visual delay.

It would be like if Miyamoto programmed Mario Bros. so that pressing the jump button at the right time allowed Mario to take no damage, but you didn't see him actually jump until about .4 seconds later. It would feel weird and bad, even though the game is technically rewarding your inputs.

It just feels like a step back from FNC where the head movement was snappy and responsive and we could go exactly where we wanted to go, exactly when we wanted. And now it's like we're locked on rails.

Like I said, I've acclimated to it and I beat this issue INTO THE GROUND already in the chatrooms, so I don't feel like bringing it up again will do anything.

The only thing that might possibly get us more granular or faster movement is if you guys keep making noise about it so that devs & production know that people aren't happy and that this is a worthwhile allocation of resources.

But I kind of get the gist at this point that we're up against a wall in terms of either: the devs' vision for the game, or what the engine is capable of.

Just had to say I am so happy you’re one of the GCs and you’re definitely doing the Lord’s work lol.


I still dont get why people think head movement would look bad with smaller start up frames.

The game should allow everyone to move their head the same but make it so chaining slips are slow/unresponsive when you have lower head movement. Also make it so there are less active frames for guys with less head movement.

Let’s be real, every single fighter can move their head well enough to dodge ONE strike. What separates fighters is the footwork/coordination to chain head movement with footwork and allow counters.

The current system is clunky and outside of Solid I dont see anyone else really defending the choice to make it soley about being predictive.

I have a boxing background and adore gorgeous head movement but cant bring myself to use it in this game because it looks and feels so bad.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: "predictive" head movement doesn't work

Just had to say I am so happy you’re one of the GCs and you’re definitely doing the Lord’s work lol.


I still dont get why people think head movement would look bad with smaller start up frames.

The game should allow everyone to move their head the same but make it so chaining slips are slow/unresponsive when you have lower head movement. Also make it so there are less active frames for guys with less head movement.

Let’s be real, every single fighter can move their head well enough to dodge ONE strike. What separates fighters is the footwork/coordination to chain head movement with footwork and allow counters.

The current system is clunky and outside of Solid I dont see anyone else really defending the choice to make it soley about being predictive.

I have a boxing background and adore gorgeous head movement but cant bring myself to use it in this game because it looks and feels so bad.

Thanks man. I tried, I really did. In the early discussions we had, sustained leaning wasn't even on the table and I had a cow. I was literally writing up big replies in between workout sets and while I had free time at work to argue for the sustained lean. That BARELY made it in.

When it comes to faster leans and a more granular system, I don't think GPD is beyond convincing, but I'm not sure who HE would have to convince, and I think they might feel like it's "good enough" right now and "a lot better than UFC2's."

So... I don't know how much hope there is to have it changed.

What I do know is that me asking for it over and over by myself won't work at this point. If we ever get the head movement changed, there will have to be a sustained, loud community outcry for it. So that they (the EA Powers that Be) can't just say "Yeah that one Zombie guy has rose tinted glasses about FNC's head movement, but he's the only one who cares, and besides, everyone else seems to love what we did."

It was refreshing to login to this forum one day and see you and Aydin and others saying exactly what I had been saying in the private chats for months, without me prompting any of you. It was a reassurance that I wasn't nuts.

So all I can say here is just keep this thread alive and make a new one if we hit a reply limit and maybe you can wheedle out an official response.

[Boiler569]

Re: "predictive" head movement doesn't work

That must be what's throwing me off --- I'm used to perfect head movement in FNC and when it's slightly off in this game, I'm all out of sorts lol

Argh

I barely use head movement in this game b/c of this ---- and I love head movement in Fight Night ---- I'll need to practice more, and maybe they'll tweak it a bit --- not sure if they can or what they can do about it but hopefully something lol

[Supreme_Bananas]

Re: "predictive" head movement doesn't work

That's what I think too. I think that head movement should determine how fast and how far your head moves, but not how soon it moves, because right now head movement in any weight class above bantamweight feels like a waste of time

How fast and how soon are the same in a practical sense, in this case.

It may feel like it's the same, but it isn't. Let me put it this way: suppose you can only slip a strike if your head moves at least a certain minimum distance to the side, this means that a fighter with better head movement both gets there faster and has a larger window to reach that distance, which means he'll have to predict less and slipping becomes easier.

Likewise, fighters with worse head movement need to predict more, and need to start their head movement sooner in other to reach that distance, making slips harder.

Now, this predicting is accomplished by the delay in head movement, but it's so hard to time the delay because of it. In other words, you cannot really tell by how much your timing was off because of the dead startup frames, and as a result the head movement becomes really sluggish and counter-intuitive.
It's like what ZombieRommel said: It would be like if Miyamoto programmed Mario Bros. so that pressing the jump button at the right time allowed Mario to take no damage, but you didn't see him actually jump until about .4 seconds later. It would feel weird and bad, even though the game is technically rewarding your inputs.

It isn't, though.

How am I even supposed to respond to this? I state for the reasons mentioned above and in the previous, as well as my experience in the game, that head movement in the higher weight classes feels like a waste of time because the delay is so pronounced, which makes predicting strikes so difficult to the point that it's not worth doing; too high risk and too little reward. It's not just me either, others have stated that they have the exact same problems, you just flatly asserting that "nah, it isn't" is not very convincing

[PlatNationRepresent]

Re: "predictive" head movement doesn't work

They had head movement it right in UFC 2, it was trash in the beta.

Sounds like its's still bad. The only thing they got right in the beta besides being able to strike and keep moving, was leg kicks, and that's probably been nerfed by now too.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: "predictive" head movement doesn't work

Now, this predicting is accomplished by the delay in head movement, but it's so hard to time the delay because of it. In other words, you cannot really tell by how much your timing was off because of the dead startup frames, and as a result the head movement becomes really sluggish and counter-intuitive.
- Is there any evidence of these dead frames, though? I don't see or feel them. And if I'm understanding it right, GPD is saying they don't exist.

How am I even supposed to respond to this?
- With evidence that people aren't using head movement much in heavier classes, in Ranked.

Here is an example of it being used (and I'm far from the top):

Spoiler

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/U_UjokMR02U" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...............................

so i should just eat 3 hooks or risk moving my head and get knocked out lol

Yes. Or you can set up your lunges. It's a fight, bro. There will be risks and skill requirements. It's not for the faint of heart. The back step and back lean of UFC 2 got people spoiled.

[MMAFRoO]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

No Delays.
I want to move my head, WHEN i want to move it.

Fix this, please.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

The “dead frames” do exist and you all have acknowledged them

It’s the start up and the only difference is that you think it’s a good thing while it appears the majority disagree.

[killakrok]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

I think it has something to do with the "dead looking" startup frames where you actually get the invuln from the stick flick within a frame but your dude doesn't visually move his head until later. Devs may have been worried about the head movement looking too fast and cartoonish, but I don't like how it feels with this visual delay.

It would be like if Miyamoto programmed Mario Bros. so that pressing the jump button at the right time allowed Mario to take no damage, but you didn't see him actually jump until about .4 seconds later. It would feel weird and bad, even though the game is technically rewarding your inputs.

It just feels like a step back from FNC where the head movement was snappy and responsive and we could go exactly where we wanted to go, exactly when we wanted. And now it's like we're locked on rails.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

I just played FNC for the first time since this game came out and it only increased my frustration. I don't understand how someone with extensive time playing UFC 3 can believe the head movement is good, or that a FNC(ish) system wouldn't be better. I've tried looking at it from other perspectives, but I haven't seen many sound arguments to support what we have in UFC 3.

Is the disconnect that adding fluidity to the head movement would make the game look unrealistic? You don't want everyone doing Anderson Silva matrix moves? If that's what it is, I get the concern, but we're already not in a great place.

In FNC, head movement for me has never been about making a lot of big, pronounced movements. That's what usually gets you lit up anyways. What we're lacking is the ability to make those small, subtle movements. Being able to do these things is a major part of fighting and I know all of us understand that. In UFC 3, we are forced to eat shots in many situations that could potentially be avoided if only the head movement was better. This game is so close to getting there, but it will never be great if this path continues.

[xtremeba1000]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

What is the difference in the head movement now and the headmovement in the beta? I legitimately do not use it at all besides the lean back option. I get hit with a combo EVERY SINGLE TIME I try to use any head movement. Now, when I played the beta I CONSTANTLY and EFFECTIVELY used headmovement and it felt so responsive and satisfying. Why did they change that?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

The “dead frames” do exist and you all have acknowledged them

It’s the start up and the only difference is that you think it’s a good thing while it appears the majority disagree.

Dead Frames an Start-Up Frames are not the same thing. You don't just stay there, then your head is suddenly far enough to evade the strike. The start-up is the movement the head makes till it gets far enough to evade.

What is the difference in the head movement now and the headmovement in the beta? I legitimately do not use it at all besides the lean back option. I get hit with a combo EVERY SINGLE TIME I try to use any head movement. Now, when I played the beta I CONSTANTLY and EFFECTIVELY used headmovement and it felt so responsive and satisfying. Why did they change that?

Head movement was actually sped up a bit.

[dina1229]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

Thanks man. I tried, I really did. In the early discussions we had, sustained leaning wasn't even on the table and I had a cow. I was literally writing up big replies in between workout sets and while I had free time at work to argue for the sustained lean. That BARELY made it in.

When it comes to faster leans and a more granular system, I don't think GPD is beyond convincing, but I'm not sure who HE would have to convince, and I think they might feel like it's "good enough" right now and "a lot better than UFC2's."

So... I don't know how much hope there is to have it changed.

What I do know is that me asking for it over and over by myself won't work at this point. If we ever get the head movement changed, there will have to be a sustained, loud community outcry for it. So that they (the EA Powers that Be) can't just say "Yeah that one Zombie guy has rose tinted glasses about FNC's head movement, but he's the only one who cares, and besides, everyone else seems to love what we did."

It was refreshing to login to this forum one day and see you and Aydin and others saying exactly what I had been saying in the private chats for months, without me prompting any of you. It was a reassurance that I wasn't nuts.

So all I can say here is just keep this thread alive and make a new one if we hit a reply limit and maybe you can wheedle out an official response.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we equally appreciate a game changer following up on this. Can you give any feedback on what Martial Mind thought? I have seen a video from him discussing how unresponsive headmovement was for certain fighters during the beta.

I can tell you from an outsiders perspective that I have 3 friends and two younger brothers that either played the beta or demoed the game through ea access. They are all MMA/UFC fans and they all say the same thing that we are. The number one thing I hear is "input lag" or "lag" with regard to headmovement or striking.

With all due respect to Solid he can call these things whatever he wants from a technical perspective. He is clearly a very intelligent person when it comes to visualizing certain things. However, he is unfortunately not connected with me or any of the people that I know when it comes to what my community wants in an MMA game. Myself and my community of friends and family could care less about the technicalities in terminology that he consistently harps on. When we push a button or give an input and it doesn't respond we have a problem. It's literally that simple. So with all due respect Solid I don't think that your opinion reflects what the overwhelming majority of the community thinks. Operation sports is a very small community that doesn't even remotely come close to the size of the people that are either purchasing or considering purchasing this title. And quite frankly, the surveys that EA sent out were not nearly as specific as they could have been for people that were considering picking up this title.

Furthermore, this is EA. For as long as I have been gaming, they have been the go-to company for realistic sports simulation games. Features like the one we are discussing take me "out of the game". What was the old saying "ea sports.... it's in the game..."?

[Phillyboi207]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

Dead Frames an Start-Up Frames are not the same thing. You don't just stay there, then your head is suddenly far enough to evade the strike. The start-up is the movement the head makes till it gets far enough to evade.


Head movement was actually sped up a bit.

Dead frames and start up frames are the exact same in this instance. The exagerrated start up for some fighters works as if they are just sitting there waiting to be hit.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: &quot;predictive&quot; head movement doesn't work

Dead frames and start up frames are the exact same in this instance. The exagerrated start up for some fighters works as if they are just sitting there waiting to be hit.

So, moving your head sitting there?