Why don't you like grappling in this game?

[Freshly Baked Gregg]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I really want takedown struggles, e.g.

Person A shoots
Person B gets a late denial
Person A still grabs a leg
Person A has the option to push forward at the cost of stamina, towards the cage, while Person B has the option to escape (whether this is stomping down or thrusting leg back like a sprawl to break the grip. For more advanced BJJ fighters, they could pull off something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S16lVViV8Rc but there are many other defenses out there) with the cost of their stamina.
If Person A pushes towards the cage, single and double leg takedowns will become harder, however, the cage should ideally make grappling more difficult for Person B if they get taken down.
Another option the cage gives to Person A is the ability to clinch, get double underhooks and use trips/throws like Khabib.

The cage should be a pivotal position, making some techniques harder and some easier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL480Rwe08c

[NFZ SHooK]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

Its hard to get the fight to the ground and then everyone just fakes every direction ground and pound is very weak. THQs version of the ground game was better in my opinion

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I really want takedown struggles, e.g.

Person A shoots
Person B gets a late denial
Person A still grabs a leg
Person A has the option to push forward at the cost of stamina, towards the cage, while Person B has the option to escape (whether this is stomping down or thrusting leg back like a sprawl to break the grip. For more advanced BJJ fighters, they could pull off something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S16lVViV8Rc but there are many other defenses out there) with the cost of their stamina.
If Person A pushes towards the cage, single and double leg takedowns will become harder, however, the cage should ideally make grappling more difficult for Person B if they get taken down.
Another option the cage gives to Person A is the ability to clinch, get double underhooks and use trips/throws like Khabib.

The cage should be a pivotal position, making some techniques harder and some easier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL480Rwe08c

I hope the devs see this thread. There are a lot of good ideas for improving the grappling in a future iteration of the game. I wonder if they could potentially add takedown struggles in one of the next patches. That would be awesome.

[UFCBlackbelt]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I hope the devs see this thread. There are a lot of good ideas for improving the grappling in a future iteration of the game. I wonder if they could potentially add takedown struggles in one of the next patches. That would be awesome.

I think there are alot of great ideas. I posted one about back mount as a thread. One small improvement would be increasing ga if someone is i. Clinch range for doubles and is still moving forward . You should not be trying to be in front of Chad mendes as holloway . Pressure is okay but it should be intelligent pressure.

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I think there are alot of great ideas. I posted one about back mount as a thread. One small improvement would be increasing ga if someone is i. Clinch range for doubles and is still moving forward . You should not be trying to be in front of Chad mendes as holloway . Pressure is okay but it should be intelligent pressure.

That's a good idea. The change that made distance a factor in the equation for double legs didn't make them nearly powerful enough when in clinch range of an opponent coming toward you. So I could see adding GA for forward moving opponents in clinch range. I'd like to see that back mount thread dug back up if possible.

[UFCBlackbelt]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

That's a good idea. The change that made distance a factor in the equation for double legs didn't make them nearly powerful enough when in clinch range of an opponent coming toward you. So I could see adding GA for forward moving opponents in clinch range. I'd like to see that back mount thread dug back up if possible.

I just posted it so it's on pg 1.

The GA for forward moving opponents would be great. Also, a better ability to chain feint takedowns with strikes. This is a huge part of grappling. The only way I can really replicate this is with a duck uppercut, but the animation difference is pretty obvious. In UFC 2 it was a lot harder to tell the difference. It would also be more effective if takedowns at a close range were more effective since people would be on guard for that.

[viper72]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I think there is to much looking at a gauge rather then looking at the fight, to much checking stamina, it's the same for submission's, just copy and paste the paste undisputed and ea mma. submissions needs more feed back and to slowed down so there is some sort of struggle,screen fading etc. More options like moving head on ground and being dragged into position away from cage etc no gauge just look at animations.

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I think there is to much looking at a gauge rather then looking at the fight, to much checking stamina, it's the same for submission's, just copy and paste the paste undisputed and ea mma. submissions needs more feed back and to slowed down so there is some sort of struggle,screen fading etc. More options like moving head on ground and being dragged into position away from cage etc no gauge just look at animations.

The problem with just looking at animations is that even the hard core folk like me had a hard time keeping track of which quarter turn or half turn does what. People already think the grappling is complicated, could you imagine if they didn't have a HUD telling them what does what? I really like the CORE system we have now, it just needs to be expanded upon with more options like you said. I also have some ideas at the top of page 6 in this thread for doing that.

The problem is if the devs scrap the core system, then they will not get as far adding new positions, etc because many of the existing animations won't translate to a new system (according to GCers).

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

The problem with just looking at animations is that even the hard core folk like me had a hard time keeping track of which quarter turn or half turn does what. People already think the grappling is complicated, could you imagine if they didn't have a HUD telling them what does what? I really like the CORE system we have now, it just needs to be expanded upon with more options like you said. I also have some ideas at the top of page 6 in this thread for doing that.

The problem is if the devs scrap the core system, then they will not get as far adding new positions, etc because many of the existing animations won't translate to a new system (according to GCers).

This

I really want the current system to stay. Just get rid of the meter filling (outside of practice and quick fight) and base it on momentum transitions

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

This

I really want the current system to stay. Just get rid of the meter filling (outside of practice and quick fight) and base it on momentum transitions

Yeah, I think the momentum scenarios could be expanded to be the basis for possibly all transitions in the next game. If meters must stay, base them on momentum instead of stamina and whatever else is slowing the grappling down.

[MartialMind]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

Oh lord.... where to begin.

There are a few things I love about the grappling system, but since this thread focuses on what we don't like, i'll just briefly touch on the positives but mostly focus on the negatives.

For me personally, artificial, made up game mechanics will always be inferior to how things actually work in real life. We have some of these artificial mechanics on the feet, but most of them, the worst ones are on the ground and clinch.

Transition Denials:
With transition denials, i think UD3 had the better idea. You didn't NEED to memorize animations to prevent a transition... You simply held the stick to the left or right. Holding the stick as opposed to flicking to stop a transition felt more like actually holding down an opponent/locking your legs to prevent a transition.

Take full guard bottom for example. In UD3, If you hold the right stick to the left or right, your fighter closes his guard and keeps it close. Any transition attempt to pass the guard will then be stopped. In halfguard it worked thesame way. You hold the stick and your fighter ties up the opponents leg preventing a transition.

For the guy on top, it was thesame. You hold the stick and you physically hold the opponent down, preventing a transition.

This was not only easier for a casual to immediately jump into and understand, but it simply felt better. Ofcourse the system wasn't without flaw, but the actual deny mechanic was better.

In UFC3 though, you have to memorize transitions.... not just that, you have ONE chance to deny a transition or you can't. Is this how transition denies actually work in real life? If a fighter is on his back and you attempt to pass to his left side, but he tries to deny to his right, does he then automatically lose the ability to deny that transition?

I mean i have the brain power to memorize hundreds of animations... that's not the issue. The issue is it shouldn't be this way when a better system could be used... a system that better represents how actual transition denials work.

Transition Fakes:

This one is quite possibly what I hate the most about this game and every other MMA game I've played. I can't for the life of me understand why this is a thing.

If i'm on the bottom, in closed guard, and my opponent pretends to pass my guard to the left, but then passes to the right, EVEN if i bite on it and try to stop his fake, am i really gonna lose the ability to deny the real transition? I mean, i'm not grappler, but is this how it works? Like "Oh no... he pretended to go to the left but he went to the right, whatever shall i do now??".

I'm sure transition fakes happen in real life, but in this game, you cannot compete with a high level player unless you engage in a battle of feints. It's feint city on the ground. And it's no annoying to me because the striking system doesn't ENFORCE feinting like it should, but then on the ground, it's everything.

I've watched high level grapplers in the UFC.... Demian Maia vs Gunner Nelson for one and i didn't see them feinting the heck out of each other and fooling each other. Feinting is a striking thing, a distance thing, not a grappling thing and i hate how much importance it holds over the whole system.

Stamina Management:

In real life, ground battles tend to be chaotic and fast paced. Fighters can attempt one transition over and over again, back to back to back. A fighter gets taken down, he can perform transitions back to back to get back to his feet. But in the game, it's like me making sweet love to my wife or something.

You get one transition denied and your stamina shoots down soooo much so now you gotta sit idle and wait for it to recharge while the guy on top throws weak *** punches at your head.

It shouldn't be like this. I should be able to go for transitions back to back to back and let that affect my long term stamina... not short term. Give us enough stamina on the ground to be very active and not have to take these long annoying breaks watching a stamina bar recharge.

Someone like Aldo immediately wiggles and wiggles and springs back up to his feet once he hits the ground.

I mean look at how chaotic this was. Aldo tried to escape to the left by posting on his left knee, didn't work and he immediately tried again to his right, no break at all to wait for stamina bar to recharge.



Ground and pound:

Ground and pound is incredibly unsatisfying. I'm not just talking about actual damage being done. I'm talking about the animations, how fighters react to getting hit and the fact that you can't actually rock anyone on the ground.

Ground and pound should feel vicious, not feel like the fighter is pulling his punches and just tapping the opponent. I wanna see the arm raise and return quick with follow through.

I mean look at that. You watch that and you immediately feel pity for the dude on the bottom.



In UFC3 though... it's just meh.

No movement on the ground:

Apart from slight movements that happen during a transition, you can't actually move on the ground. You can't push an opponent to the cage, you can't butt scoot to the cage, if you're near the cage you can turn your body away from it if you don't wanna be near it... both fighters just lay where they fell and that's it.

I hate that so much.

That's it for now. I don't wanna make this too long.

I feel like the grappling should be easy to jump into for casuals. Denying and transitioning should be easy to immediately grasp, not involve a crap load of memorizing where you're also fighting the camera.... but then it should have a deeper layer, a layer that involves knowing what transition beats what and that should be the bulk of grappling. I'm sure we'll all dive deeper into this topic but for now, this is why i hate grappling in this game.

It completely kills the fun for me... like completely. Once i get taken down I just know now i gotta sit there and fake with you, wait for stamina to recharge, exchange baby punches with you to gain GA, ugh!. Boring beyond belief.

[UFCBlackbelt]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

Oh lord.... where to begin.

There are a few things I love about the grappling system, but since this thread focuses on what we don't like, i'll just briefly touch on the positives but mostly focus on the negatives.

For me personally, artificial, made up game mechanics will always be inferior to how things actually work in real life. We have some of these artificial mechanics on the feet, but most of them, the worst ones are on the ground and clinch.

Transition Denials:
With transition denials, i think UD3 had the better idea. You didn't NEED to memorize animations to prevent a transition... You simply held the stick to the left or right. Holding the stick as opposed to flicking to stop a transition felt more like actually holding down an opponent/locking your legs to prevent a transition.

Take full guard bottom for example. In UD3, If you hold the right stick to the left or right, your fighter closes his guard and keeps it close. Any transition attempt to pass the guard will then be stopped. In halfguard it worked thesame way. You hold the stick and your fighter ties up the opponents leg preventing a transition.

For the guy on top, it was thesame. You hold the stick and you physically hold the opponent down, preventing a transition.

This was not only easier for a casual to immediately jump into and understand, but it simply felt better. Ofcourse the system wasn't without flaw, but the actual deny mechanic was better.

In UFC3 though, you have to memorize transitions.... not just that, you have ONE chance to deny a transition or you can't. Is this how transition denies actually work in real life? If a fighter is on his back and you attempt to pass to his left side, but he tries to deny to his right, does he then automatically lose the ability to deny that transition?

I mean i have the brain power to memorize hundreds of animations... that's not the issue. The issue is it shouldn't be this way when a better system could be used... a system that better represents how actual transition denials work.

Transition Fakes:

This one is quite possibly what I hate the most about this game and every other MMA game I've played. I can't for the life of me understand why this is a thing.

If i'm on the bottom, in closed guard, and my opponent pretends to pass my guard to the left, but then passes to the right, EVEN if i bite on it and try to stop his fake, am i really gonna lose the ability to deny the real transition? I mean, i'm not grappler, but is this how it works? Like "Oh no... he pretended to go to the left but he went to the right, whatever shall i do now??".

I'm sure transition fakes happen in real life, but in this game, you cannot compete with a high level player unless you engage in a battle of feints. It's feint city on the ground. And it's no annoying to me because the striking system doesn't ENFORCE feinting like it should, but then on the ground, it's everything.

I've watched high level grapplers in the UFC.... Demian Maia vs Gunner Nelson for one and i didn't see them feinting the heck out of each other and fooling each other. Feinting is a striking thing, a distance thing, not a grappling thing and i hate how much importance it holds over the whole system.

Stamina Management:

In real life, ground battles tend to be chaotic and fast paced. Fighters can attempt one transition over and over again, back to back to back. A fighter gets taken down, he can perform transitions back to back to get back to his feet. But in the game, it's like me making sweet love to my wife or something.

You get one transition denied and your stamina shoots down soooo much so now you gotta sit idle and wait for it to recharge while the guy on top throws weak *** punches at your head.

It shouldn't be like this. I should be able to go for transitions back to back to back and let that affect my long term stamina... not short term. Give us enough stamina on the ground to be very active and not have to take these long annoying breaks watching a stamina bar recharge.

Someone like Aldo immediately wiggles and wiggles and springs back up to his feet once he hits the ground.

I mean look at how chaotic this was. Aldo tried to escape to the left by posting on his left knee, didn't work and he immediately tried again to his right, no break at all to wait for stamina bar to recharge.



Ground and pound:

Ground and pound is incredibly unsatisfying. I'm not just talking about actual damage being done. I'm talking about the animations, how fighters react to getting hit and the fact that you can't actually rock anyone on the ground.

Ground and pound should feel vicious, not feel like the fighter is pulling his punches and just tapping the opponent. I wanna see the arm raise and return quick with follow through.

I mean look at that. You watch that and you immediately feel pity for the dude on the bottom.



In UFC3 though... it's just meh.

No movement on the ground:

Apart from slight movements that happen during a transition, you can't actually move on the ground. You can't push an opponent to the cage, you can't butt scoot to the cage, if you're near the cage you can turn your body away from it if you don't wanna be near it... both fighters just lay where they fell and that's it.

I hate that so much.

That's it for now. I don't wanna make this too long.

I feel like the grappling should be easy to jump into for casuals. Denying and transitioning should be easy to immediately grasp, not involve a crap load of memorizing where you're also fighting the camera.... but then it should have a deeper layer, a layer that involves knowing what transition beats what and that should be the bulk of grappling. I'm sure we'll all dive deeper into this topic but for now, this is why i hate grappling in this game.

It completely kills the fun for me... like completely. Once i get taken down I just know now i gotta sit there and fake with you, wait for stamina to recharge, exchange baby punches with you to gain GA, ugh!. Boring beyond belief.

Agreed on all these points. In regards to passing, there's really not so much of a reliance on feinting as there is an importance on posture and awareness. For example, if I'm in a dominant position and I try to pass to a better position, I care more about my center of gravity, whether my opponent's hips are bladed (for avoiding shrimping and bridging) but most importantly the positioning of my opponent's legs/arms in accordance with mine. I find myself feinting more when I'm on the bottom, such as in guard play. But it's not the core of the art.

It's akin to chess play. You combine multiple moves to trap your opponent, but you don't throw your knight into center just to bring it back. For example, you can go for a scissor sweep from the guard, and if the person doesn't know what they're doing and they base their hand you can secure a kimura, when they go to defend that you do a bump sweep. That's not really feinting. I'm not feinting the initial sweep, it's real, I am feinting the intention in order to trap them.

If we had anything like that in this game it would be awesome, the ground game would feel so much more alive. I don't think it would be too complicated either, I think the basic positioning should be easy to do but the more discrete details require a better understanding. Just like in striking discrete details like block breaking, micro head movement and frame trapping also require more than the basics.

You could combine this with an extensive tutorial that actually teaches people the fundamentals of grappling. Madden has pretty good tutorials that teach you about some of the smaller details of football, it won't be to the level of an nfl player but you do learn a lot of fundamentals. If it works in that game I don't see why it wouldn't here.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

Martial Mind please keep going.

Hell make a video about it.

The more detail the greater the odds of Devs looking into it

[Morgan Monkman]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

What a post by Martial. Agreed on everything.

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

You're spot on here with all of your points. The directional denials lead to this artificial faking mechanic that is just not realistic with how central of a mechanic it is at the high levels.

I share the exact same opinion on stamina as well. Let it effect the long term stamina instead of the short term stamina. This would make for a much faster pace on the ground like the example in your gif. Adding up the stamina and slow pace votes makes for like 60 something percent here that agree with us too apparently.

Bottom line, this does need to be easier for casuals to pick up and be good at. Changing the denials back to the way UD3 did it will make denials feel much more natural, make it easier for casuals, kill the faking mechanic that is unrealistic (as far as how central of a mechanic it is), and bring some realism back into the equation.

Note: I didn't quote you because I didn't want to take up a ton of room