UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

[johnmangala]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

I would like the head movement have fatigue animations at low stamina like the lunges too.

They are already present in the game as well since they can be triggered when swaying when stunned. Assign these animations to head movement during low stamina too.

Improves immersion.

[aholbert32]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

Just out of curiosity, where do you think the change should occur? Seems like someone with 75% gas tank really wouldn't 'look' much different?

Or do I misunderstand what you mean by animation? Does this mean the laziness of strikes? If that's the case, it would be great to see punches becoming longer as they loop.

I think there needs to be a slightly clearer mid level animation (around 70-75%) and the slowdown in animations should be clearer at that level so that people realize that they are somewhat fatigued. Right now people go from 70% feeling the same as they were at 100% to seeing a big drop off at 50%.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

As its been stated, I dont feel like you can make the comparison of UFC statistics coming from elite level competitors in the sport to a UFC video game where anyone is qualified to play online.

If you took the statistic from every level of Mixed Martial Arts bout, ammy + pro and all the rinky dink promotions that exist. I imagine the finish rate would be closer to the metrics we would see in game.

As for ESFL fights, the strike outputs are generally lower than ranked strike outputs and in most ESFL fights jabs and feints make up %60 or more of the strikes thrown.

Another thing, Im in good shape but nowhere near UFC fight ready shape and I can throw 600 strikes in 25 minutes without being dead tired.

So while strike output in game is consistently higher than UFC fights, its important to note that striking is jot the only thing in a fight that tires you out and that fear of fatigue is not the only reason we dont see higher strike output in actual fightsm

[DaisukEasy]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

No BS. I would love to see a video that shows this.

I wish it was BS. I didn't save the video though.

I'm not saying that stamina cant be improved. It absolutely can but if someone has Conor (who has average stamina), throws 100 plus strikes in a round and the opponent is doing more than just blocking

Let me stop your right there. His opponent shouldn't have to do anything. Conor simply cannot throw 100+ strikes every round for 5 rounds. Even if his opponent is taking an ungodly beating with no footwork or head movement, he will either knock his opponent out early or he gasses in less than two rounds.

That said, my opponent was mostly using footwork and blocking. Used a bit of head movement, but mostly went for safe defensive options. It should've been enough given the ridiculous output.

Actually the cte thing is a valid point, people throw more and get rocked so much due to them having less consequences than irl do. Irl one shot could finish your career, in the virtual environment thats not an issue.

The CTE part is true. But people want to win. If throwing that much was as risky as it is in real life, not for your career but for that particular fight, people wouldn't do it as recklessly.

Secondly top 100 and the cheese within it is a reason for unrealic stats, due to unrealistic gameplay

The point is to compare stats at the highest level. Them cheesing doesn't matter so long as it's an accurate representation of high level play.

If the stats show a disparity between UFC3 high level statistics and real life stats then that's useful information.

So choosing the top 100 doesnt really count. Plus top 100 ranked, ut or lec? As ive been top 100 lec but only once on ranked and never played ut.

Then do it for Ranked, LEC and UT to show the contrast between those modes as well as real life.

Another thing, Im in good shape but nowhere near UFC fight ready shape and I can throw 600 strikes in 25 minutes without being dead tired.

If you're throwing at 10% power because you're sparring, sure.

In an actual fight? I can't say I believe that..

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

The CTE part is true. But people want to win. If throwing that much was as risky as it is in real life, not for your career but for that particular fight, people wouldn't do it as recklessly.


The point is to compare stats at the highest level. Them cheesing doesn't matter so long as it's an accurate representation of high level play.

If the stats show a disparity between UFC3 high level statistics and real life stats then that's useful information.


Then do it for Ranked, LEC and UT to show the contrast between those modes as well as real life.

Cheesing at high level play could skew the stats though, in terms of actual fight stats rather than the results. And i agree with the rest.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

Cheesing at high level play could skew the stats though, in terms of actual fight stats rather than the results. And i agree with the rest.

How exactly does cheese skew the stats? Isn't it simply part of the stats (sadly)?

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

How exactly does cheese skew the stats? Isn't it simply part of the stats (sadly)?

In terms of numbers of subs and desicions. Like the way the game is built and played rn favours striking and favours the cheese.

[aholbert32]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

I wish it was BS. I didn't save the video though.



Let me stop your right there. His opponent shouldn't have to do anything. Conor simply cannot throw 100+ strikes every round for 5 rounds. Even if his opponent is taking an ungodly beating with no footwork or head movement, he will either knock his opponent out early or he gasses in less than two rounds.

Your telling me that an elite athlete cant throw 500 strikes in a 25 minute period (with 4 1 minute breaks) without gassing when his opponent does nothing? Do you think Conor gasses on a heavy bag? Conor doesnt have the best gas tank in the world but the reason he gassed in the past does have something to do with what his opponent does.

In Diaz 2, it was because of the body strikes (Diaz focused a 3rd of his strikes to Conor's body). Same with Mayweather. He was tired against Mendes because Mendes made him grapple (Conor has one of the lowest grapple stamina ratings in the game because of it).

My issue isnt that the game forces you to do things to drain your opponent's stamina. My issue is that other things like strike output and misses caused by simple movement or blocking dont drain enough stamina.

[LarsP]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

...

Another thing, Im in good shape but nowhere near UFC fight ready shape and I can throw 600 strikes in 25 minutes without being dead tired.

...

Now it all makes sense..

JK, this one was too easy

[DaisukEasy]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

Your telling me that an elite athlete cant throw 500 strikes in a 25 minute period (with 4 1 minute breaks) without gassing when his opponent does nothing?

If you're literally a heavy bag, then obviously they can. But given average footwork (so making someone miss at least half the time simply by moving out of range), yes, people punch themselves out. Happens all the time.

Do you think Conor gasses on a heavy bag?

It's not the same.

Conor doesnt have the best gas tank in the world but the reason he gassed in the past does have something to do with what his opponent does.

Nate didn't do anything special. He walked backwards the majority of the first round in their first fight, jabbing Conor and avoiding the counter by not moving forward (mostly). Conor gassed himself by throwing counter power punches at someone who wasn't going to walk into them.

Nate didn't butcher him with body shots nor did he go full Matrix. It was basic footwork and distance management coupled with an overly aggressive opponent and a below average gas tank.

In the second fight Conor used leg kicks to nullify Nate's range advantage. This allowed him to connect way more than he did in their first fight, but even then he was still showing visible signs of fatigue at the end of R2.

So what did Nate do? Did he move his head a lot? Not really. Did he pepper him with body shots? He threw a few body jabs, but nothing extremely noteworthy. Oh, he also got knocked down multiple times. Still, because he weathered the storm, Conor got tired and Nate gained a stamina advantage.

In Diaz 2, it was because of the body strikes (Diaz focused a 3rd of his strikes to Conor's body).

Conor was already tired by the end of R2.

My issue is that other things like strike output and misses caused by simple movement or blocking dont drain enough stamina.

We agree on this at the very least.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

Yes. He was gassing on the bags in his open workout before the mayweather fight hahaha

Really? That's actually pretty funny.. xD

[Phillyboi207]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

Your telling me that an elite athlete cant throw 500 strikes in a 25 minute period (with 4 1 minute breaks) without gassing when his opponent does nothing? Do you think Conor gasses on a heavy bag? Conor doesnt have the best gas tank in the world but the reason he gassed in the past does have something to do with what his opponent does.

In Diaz 2, it was because of the body strikes (Diaz focused a 3rd of his strikes to Conor's body). Same with Mayweather. He was tired against Mendes because Mendes made him grapple (Conor has one of the lowest grapple stamina ratings in the game because of it).

My issue isnt that the game forces you to do things to drain your opponent's stamina. My issue is that other things like strike output and misses caused by simple movement or blocking dont drain enough stamina.

I think the biggest thing that’s being overlooked is the adrenaline and stress of fighting another person attempting to hurt you.

That alone will tire you out if you’re not in the correct mental state. There’s no added stress when hitting a heavy bag.

Adrenaline dump is a real thing. That’s why there are some athletes that look amazing during practices but cant perform during a real fight (or game)

[ZHunter1990]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

I think the biggest thing that’s being overlooked is the adrenaline and stress of fighting another person attempting to hurt you.

That alone will tire you out if you’re not in the correct mental state. There’s no added stress when hitting a heavy bag.

Adrenaline dump is a real thing. That’s why there are some athletes that look amazing during practices but cant perform during a real fight (or game)

Adrenaline dumps are certainly real, but competitors learn how to these avoid dumps over time as they compete more often.

Things like blocking, movement, shift in direction on the drop of a dime, tensing up for a strike, all play a factor as well irl and they dont ingame.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

I wish it was BS. I didn't save the video though.



Let me stop your right there. His opponent shouldn't have to do anything. Conor simply cannot throw 100+ strikes every round for 5 rounds. Even if his opponent is taking an ungodly beating with no footwork or head movement, he will either knock his opponent out early or he gasses in less than two rounds.

That said, my opponent was mostly using footwork and blocking. Used a bit of head movement, but mostly went for safe defensive options. It should've been enough given the ridiculous output.



The CTE part is true. But people want to win. If throwing that much was as risky as it is in real life, not for your career but for that particular fight, people wouldn't do it as recklessly.



The point is to compare stats at the highest level. Them cheesing doesn't matter so long as it's an accurate representation of high level play.

If the stats show a disparity between UFC3 high level statistics and real life stats then that's useful information.



Then do it for Ranked, LEC and UT to show the contrast between those modes as well as real life.




If you're throwing at 10% power because you're sparring, sure.

In an actual fight? I can't say I believe that..

I didnt say sparring or fighting. I can hit a heavy bag 600 times with quite a bit of power in 25 minutes without gassing. I think its fair to assume that most people in good shape could also.

My point is that strike output alone, 600 strikes is possible without gassing. When you add in movement, blocking, getting hit, grappling..etc that number start dwindling.

[aholbert32]

Re: UFC Performance Institute Study --- Lessons for UFC 3 & Beyond?

I think the biggest thing that’s being overlooked is the adrenaline and stress of fighting another person attempting to hurt you.

That alone will tire you out if you’re not in the correct mental state. There’s no added stress when hitting a heavy bag.

Adrenaline dump is a real thing. That’s why there are some athletes that look amazing during practices but cant perform during a real fight (or game)

So should the game implement an adrenaline feature? How would that work?

I've been asking questions and making suggestions about stamina for months now. What I've discovered is there may not be a middle ground.

Take Boiler's suggestions:

* +10% Stamina Tax for Blocked Strikes; to balance this, blocked strikes cause 10% more damage to Blocking Power - Comp players will argue that any increased stamina tax on blocked strikes will encourage camping. Casual fans (who solely rely on blocking as their main defense) will complain that more bleed through will lead to quicker KO's and rocks.

* +25% Stamina Tax for Missed or Evaded Strikes - Comp players have been complaining for months that people just sit back and bait whiffs simply to lower their opponents stamina. They will argue that this will just encourage people to do more of this and will continue to make the first 2 rounds of fights situations where people will only fight conservatively to bait whiffs and get a stamina advantage.

* +100% Stamina Tax for Missed Takedowns (but also make it a bit easier to score takedowns....as they're too difficult right now IMO). Grapplers will complain that this is another nerf to an area that has already been nerfed and that grapplers dont gas significantly just from missing takedowns.



Here is one I've suggested:

- Nerfing between round perm stamina regen and lowering or eliminating the stamina perks that artificially increase stamina regen for certain fighters. Comp players claim the game will become even more conservative than it is with people just throwing 1 and 2 punch combos so they dont blow their stamina.

- More bleedthrough on the block: Again casual fans will see more quick knockdowns and will likely become frustrated with the game.

- Sliders or a sim stamina mode in ranked: High Level players believe it will split the already small user base in ranked and it will be harder to find matches.

I'm sure there are other ideas but I'm not sure there are any that will convince the high level comp players or the devs who are concerned about casual play.

Offline players are good. We have sliders that can make stamina more realistic and forces the player and AI to fight at a reasonable pace. Online seems to cater more to ranked players and if they are adamant that the suggested changes to stamina will make the game worse...I dont know if stamina is gonna change much.